Theology is not faith

[Major]

But what is the point when it seems YOU will never see how your theology is different than the express Word of God??

I have been asking the Lord what I should do with this "dance". I believe the best thing I can do with it is use it as the perfect example for others to see for themselves the trap when we allow our beliefs to be controlled by somebodies' Theology and not the word of God. Chances are you will not see it or admit it for you haven't yet but hopefully others will be able to see how easily many popular theologies of today subtly introduce false teachings into the Christian community under the guise of "sound doctrine".

AS always I am speaking of the prophesies of Daniel 9-12 which contains the 70 "week" prophecy. The prophecies of Daniel 7 are separate prophecies to those of Dan 9-12.

Firstly Daniel makes it clear that the curses for transgression he is speaking about are the SEVENfold increasing curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 for the BIBLE says clearly:-

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:

Gabriel also is equally clear when he declares to Daniel that there is one more SEVENfold curse yet to come (70x 7).

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (ie 7 times the 70 years of the current curse) are determined (meaning decreed) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity

So seeing as the 70 "weeks" are inextricably tied to the last of the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 let's see exactly what this last curse entails and what is the END RESULT of it coming to pass.

Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; 28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. 31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. 34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. 35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

In the seige of Jerusalem just before its destruction in 70AD and the famine it created history tells us that many families did indeed end up actually eating their own children. Gruesome as it is to contemplate it is exactly as Daniel prophesied. In 74 AD exactly "70 weeks" after the rebuilding of Jerusalem was completed the LAST city, High place and stronghold of Israel, namely MASADA was overrun and destroyed by the Roman Army. At this point the destruction of Israel as a land and a nation was TOTAL and the people of Israel forcebly scattered among the heathen nations and there they languished a much troubled and frightened people and remained until 1948. But the restoration of Israel to the Promised land only happens AFTER the last curse is lifted.

Now the fulfilment of EVERY prophesy of Daniel 9-12 can actually be found in exacting detail in the history of the world prior to the end 0f 74 AD. The rise and fall of the Persian and Greek Empires, Antiochus Epiphanes, the Maccabbeen Revolt, the cleansing of the Temple, the stopping of the Daily sacrifice, the abomination of desolation by the Roman army, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and all places of Israel and last but not least the scattering of the power of the Holy people.

Now an angel asked when all these things shall be and another angel gives him this emphatic and unequivocal declaration in Dan 12:7. It is a clear and concise declaration whose meaning is crystal clear. The question is answered with this declaration:-

Dan 12:6-7 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So the Bible declares emphatically that all these prophecies shall be fulfilled (finished) by the time the scattering of the power of the Holy people is accomplished. It also declare,s as we have seen, that the scattering of the power of the Holy people marks the END of the last curse of Leviticus 26:14-46 and hence the END of the 70 "Weeks" Gabriel spoke of (ALL 70 weeks not just 69 of them).

So what does this mean for the FUTURISTIC "70th Week" theologies that Major adheres to? First this theology must either call Daniel and Gabriel liars or deny that Irael was totally destroyed and its people scattered among the heathen nations by the end of 74AD. Why? Because Daniel and Gabriel tie the FULL 70 "weeks" directly to the last curse of Leviticus 26 which ENDS with the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen nations after 70x7 years (ie SEVENfold longer than the last curse which was the 70 year exile). What's more they must also declare Dan 12:7 to be FALSE teaching for it declares all these prophecies to be fulfilled by the time the Holy people have been scattered. They were all scattered by the end of 74AD but 70th week theology says Dan 12:7 is wrong because there are still many of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 still to be fulfilled AFTER the scattering of the power of the Holy people has been accomplished.

So once again the point is demonstrated that you can believe the words of Daniel, Moses, Gabriel and the other angels, OR you can believe the words of the 70th week theologists - BUT you cannot believe both because the words contradict each other. To believe one is true you have no option but to believe the other to be false.

The question then becomes WHOSE words will you believe? The words of the Bible OR the words of the 70th week theologists. Whose words will you DISbelieve? For you have to declare either the words of the Bible OR the words of the "70TH week" theologists to be untrue.

But understand this is the SAME choice you must make for ANY theology that does not accord with or is contrary to the actual words of the Bible. To believe the words of a theology that is not in accordance with the words of the Bible is to DISbelieve the words of the Bible. They can't both be right and yet say different things.

Perhaps we can call this a "demonstration dance" and leave it at that Major. I think the people here have seen enough. If you don't mind I'll sit the next one out.

Your quote was..............
"But what is the point when it seems YOU will never see how your theology is different than the express Word of God??"

As a Christian, do you really believe that this kind of comment is acceptable?????

You have in the past even questioned my faith as a Christian. Do you honestly believe that because I and or anyone else do not believe what you believe about prophecy, we are not saved?????? WELL OF COURSE YOU DO AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT ON ANOTHER THREAD. You see, there is the real problem here isn't it???????
Personally, I had seen enough before you brought this up yet once again. This is about the 5th or 6th bite of the apple for you and you are just as much in error this time as you were the 1st time.

This "dance" is not about who believes the Bible or theology or faith or even the prophectic Word of God. Anyone who reads this stuff has identified it a long time ago. It is about YOU my friend and the fact that someone dares to confront the error of your theology.. You are obviousely not able to say..........."OK Major, we disagree on this subject, lets move on". I have done that several times but it is YOU who keeps coming back again and again. That tells me you are not used to having anyone disagree with you. That my friend, pshycologically speaking, comes from a need to "control"-------- NOT a theology issue.

I can post once again the error of your opinions on Daniels 70th week and how that has flawed your complete view of prophecy but what would be the point?????

I can re-post how Replacement Theology flaws everything when taught but what would it matter.

I have done it several times and the only one who does not grasp the correct Biblical teaching is YOU.

You do not accept what I do that the Scriptures teach and I do not accept what you teach LETS MOVE ON.....PLEASE!

So, I emplore you to do just as you have said yet ONCE AGAIN........ "If you don't mind I'll sit the next one out".

 

[calvin]

But what is the point when it seems YOU will never see how your theology is different than the express Word of God??

I have been asking the Lord what I should do with this "dance". I believe the best thing I can do with it is use it as the perfect example for others to see for themselves the trap when we allow our beliefs to be controlled by somebodies' Theology and not the word of God. Chances are you will not see it or admit it for you haven't yet but hopefully others will be able to see how easily many popular theologies of today subtly introduce false teachings into the Christian community under the guise of "sound doctrine".

AS always I am speaking of the prophesies of Daniel 9-12 which contains the 70 "week" prophecy. The prophecies of Daniel 7 are separate prophecies to those of Dan 9-12.

Firstly Daniel makes it clear that the curses for transgression he is speaking about are the SEVENfold increasing curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 for the BIBLE says clearly:-

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:

Gabriel also is equally clear when he declares to Daniel that there is one more SEVENfold curse yet to come (70x 7).

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (ie 7 times the 70 years of the current curse) are determined (meaning decreed) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity

So seeing as the 70 "weeks" are inextricably tied to the last of the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 let's see exactly what this last curse entails and what is the END RESULT of it coming to pass.

Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; 28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. 31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. 34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. 35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

In the seige of Jerusalem just before its destruction in 70AD and the famine it created history tells us that many families did indeed end up actually eating their own children. Gruesome as it is to contemplate it is exactly as Daniel prophesied. In 74 AD exactly "70 weeks" after the rebuilding of Jerusalem was completed the LAST city, High place and stronghold of Israel, namely MASADA was overrun and destroyed by the Roman Army. At this point the destruction of Israel as a land and a nation was TOTAL and the people of Israel forcebly scattered among the heathen nations and there they languished a much troubled and frightened people and remained until 1948. But the restoration of Israel to the Promised land only happens AFTER the last curse is lifted.

Now the fulfilment of EVERY prophesy of Daniel 9-12 can actually be found in exacting detail in the history of the world prior to the end 0f 74 AD. The rise and fall of the Persian and Greek Empires, Antiochus Epiphanes, the Maccabbeen Revolt, the cleansing of the Temple, the stopping of the Daily sacrifice, the abomination of desolation by the Roman army, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and all places of Israel and last but not least the scattering of the power of the Holy people.

Now an angel asked when all these things shall be and another angel gives him this emphatic and unequivocal declaration in Dan 12:7. It is a clear and concise declaration whose meaning is crystal clear. The question is answered with this declaration:-

Dan 12:6-7 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So the Bible declares emphatically that all these prophecies shall be fulfilled (finished) by the time the scattering of the power of the Holy people is accomplished. It also declare,s as we have seen, that the scattering of the power of the Holy people marks the END of the last curse of Leviticus 26:14-46 and hence the END of the 70 "Weeks" Gabriel spoke of (ALL 70 weeks not just 69 of them).

So what does this mean for the FUTURISTIC "70th Week" theologies that Major adheres to? First this theology must either call Daniel and Gabriel liars or deny that Irael was totally destroyed and its people scattered among the heathen nations by the end of 74AD. Why? Because Daniel and Gabriel tie the FULL 70 "weeks" directly to the last curse of Leviticus 26 which ENDS with the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen nations after 70x7 years (ie SEVENfold longer than the last curse which was the 70 year exile). What's more they must also declare Dan 12:7 to be FALSE teaching for it declares all these prophecies to be fulfilled by the time the Holy people have been scattered. They were all scattered by the end of 74AD but 70th week theology says Dan 12:7 is wrong because there are still many of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 still to be fulfilled AFTER the scattering of the power of the Holy people has been accomplished.

So once again the point is demonstrated that you can believe the words of Daniel, Moses, Gabriel and the other angels, OR you can believe the words of the 70th week theologists - BUT you cannot believe both because the words contradict each other. To believe one is true you have no option but to believe the other to be false.

The question then becomes WHOSE words will you believe? The words of the Bible OR the words of the 70th week theologists. Whose words will you DISbelieve? For you have to declare either the words of the Bible OR the words of the "70TH week" theologists to be untrue.

But understand this is the SAME choice you must make for ANY theology that does not accord with or is contrary to the actual words of the Bible. To believe the words of a theology that is not in accordance with the words of the Bible is to DISbelieve the words of the Bible. They can't both be right and yet say different things.

Perhaps we can call this a "demonstration dance" and leave it at that Major. I think the people here have seen enough. If you don't mind I'll sit the next one out.

Mistmann, I wouldn't. But I can't and won't tell you how to live your cyber life.
There are many who can see the truth you are getting out there, and can see where deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness. Rest assured that although some are, not many are deceived. Indeed the only readers who are being deceived are those who want to be. However if the truth is not presented alongside error, Satan has a greater chance of leading people astray. So much for my encouragement of you to uphold truth.

It is interesting that theologians are cited as being good......some of them at least. Even a good theologian can go wrong. I'm using the word theologian loosely enough to include Bible teachers. I have in mind a certain person who co-authored an excellent Bible study entitled "The Blue Print" published by Matthias Press......excellent study material. I was saddened recently to see this same person giving a Christmas address in which he (on two separate occasions) told his audience that Christmas is a time when we celebrate not just the birth of Jesus, but also the birth of God. That might be acceptable for an RC, but not for any reformation church teaching. So if you were to evaluate "the Blue Print", you might well think what a gifted teacher/theologian this guy is, but then if you heard his Christmas address..................

There is at least one here on this forum who has cited Adela Yarbro Collins, as one being worthy of receiving godly instruction from.
However, check out this reference to said Godly champion of the scriptures
http://www.pbcc.org/contactus/bell/ApocalypseMyth.pdf
An extract from the above url:

Adela Yarbro Collins reads the book as an ancient combat myth, “a struggle between two divine beings​

for universal kingship,” a re-working of the Babylonian Marduk and Tiamat, the Canaanite Baal and​

Yam, the Egyptian Horus and Seth, the Greek Apollo and Python​

And that is in relation to The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
One would do well to remember that 'theologian' does not equate to Spirit led Bible believing God fearing Christian, as you have been endeavoring to point out.
blessings,
calvin

 

[mistmann]

Mistmann, I wouldn't. But I can't and won't tell you how to live your cyber life.
There are many who can see the truth you are getting out there, and can see where deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness. Rest assured that although some are, not many are deceived. Indeed the only readers who are being deceived are those who want to be. However if the truth is not presented alongside error, Satan has a greater chance of leading people astray. So much for my encouragement of you to uphold truth.

It is interesting that theologians are cited as being good......some of them at least. Even a good theologian can go wrong. I'm using the word theologian loosely enough to include Bible teachers. I have in mind a certain person who co-authored an excellent Bible study entitled "The Blue Print" published by Matthias Press......excellent study material. I was saddened recently to see this same person giving a Christmas address in which he (on two separate occasions) told his audience that Christmas is a time when we celebrate not just the birth of Jesus, but also the birth of God. That might be acceptable for an RC, but not for any reformation church teaching. So if you were to evaluate "the Blue Print", you might well think what a gifted teacher/theologian this guy is, but then if you heard his Christmas address..................

There is at least one here on this forum who has cited Adela Yarbro Collins, as one being worthy of receiving godly instruction from.
However, check out this reference to said Godly champion of the scriptures
http://www.pbcc.org/contactus/bell/ApocalypseMyth.pdf
An extract from the above url:

Adela Yarbro Collins reads the book as an ancient combat myth, “a struggle between two divine beings​

for universal kingship,” a re-working of the Babylonian Marduk and Tiamat, the Canaanite Baal and​

Yam, the Egyptian Horus and Seth, the Greek Apollo and Python​

And that is in relation to The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
One would do well to remember that 'theologian' does not equate to Spirit led Bible believing God fearing Christian, as you have been endeavoring to point out.
blessings,
calvin

Hi Calvin,

Do not sell yourself short. Your encouraging comments are a a much needed refreshment to my soul and a strenghening of the bones of my faith. To borrow a blessing from the Bible. Blessed be the feet of him who brings ME good news of the faithfulness of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

May the Lord bless you abundantly,

Misty.

 

[Major]

Mistmann, I wouldn't. But I can't and won't tell you how to live your cyber life.
There are many who can see the truth you are getting out there, and can see where deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness. Rest assured that although some are, not many are deceived. Indeed the only readers who are being deceived are those who want to be. However if the truth is not presented alongside error, Satan has a greater chance of leading people astray. So much for my encouragement of you to uphold truth.

It is interesting that theologians are cited as being good......some of them at least. Even a good theologian can go wrong. I'm using the word theologian loosely enough to include Bible teachers. I have in mind a certain person who co-authored an excellent Bible study entitled "The Blue Print" published by Matthias Press......excellent study material. I was saddened recently to see this same person giving a Christmas address in which he (on two separate occasions) told his audience that Christmas is a time when we celebrate not just the birth of Jesus, but also the birth of God. That might be acceptable for an RC, but not for any reformation church teaching. So if you were to evaluate "the Blue Print", you might well think what a gifted teacher/theologian this guy is, but then if you heard his Christmas address..................

There is at least one here on this forum who has cited Adela Yarbro Collins, as one being worthy of receiving godly instruction from.
However, check out this reference to said Godly champion of the scriptures
http://www.pbcc.org/contactus/bell/ApocalypseMyth.pdf
An extract from the above url:

Adela Yarbro Collins reads the book as an ancient combat myth, “a struggle between two divine beings​

for universal kingship,” a re-working of the Babylonian Marduk and Tiamat, the Canaanite Baal and​

Yam, the Egyptian Horus and Seth, the Greek Apollo and Python​

And that is in relation to The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
One would do well to remember that 'theologian' does not equate to Spirit led Bible believing God fearing Christian, as you have been endeavoring to point out.
blessings,
calvin

Your comments here are nothing more than a weakly veiled attempt at deception itself. Your comments do not fool anyone Calvin, and since they come from dicussions you and I have had, where we have disagreed on subjects, I find them very disengeuniness to use in the support of anothers disagreements to accepted universal Bible understandings.

Mistmann stated he believes works are needed for salvation and I disagree. If you choose agree with that and believe that...... ............................Then God bless you.
Mistmann stated that Daniels 70th week has taken plcae in 70 AD. If you choose to agree with him and think I have distorted the Scriptures.....Then God bless you.
You and I disgreed on what John did on Patmos. You stated he was on a vacation enjoying the beach so to speak and I stated he was "exiled". If you choose that, then the Lord bless you.

But to say as you did........."deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness" I find disturbing since all the items I posted were directly copied and pasted from this very site from the actual words used.

But to each his own, if you believe that you did correctly, then so be it.

I have nothing against you or mistmann and I wish you both God's best and have said the same before.

 

[mistmann]

Your comments here are nothing more than a weakly veiled attempt at deception itself. Your comments do not fool anyone Calvin, and since they come from dicussions you and I have had, where we have disagreed on subjects, I find them very disengeuniness to use in the support of anothers disagreements to accepted universal Bible understandings.

You mean like your comments about "Replacement Theology" and "Preterism" that you just happen to toss into this thread from a disagreement on another thread? Or the new one you have just tossed in about works and Salvation (which you have misrepresented I might add). Why are you condemning Calvin for the very things you are doing and he is not??

Mistmann stated he believes works are needed for salvation and I disagree. If you choose agree with that and believe that...... ............................Then God bless you.
Mistmann stated that Daniels 70th week has taken plcae in 70 AD. If you choose to agree with him and think I have distorted the Scriptures.....Then God bless you.
You and I disgreed on what John did on Patmos. You stated he was on a vacation enjoying the beach so to speak and I stated he was "exiled". If you choose that, then the Lord bless you.

But to say as you did........."deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness" I find disturbing since all the items I posted were directly copied and pasted from this very site from the actual words used.

But to each his own, if you believe that you did correctly, then so be it.

I have nothing against you or mistmann and I wish you both God's best and have said the same before.

If you have nothing against me why are you chasing me all over the board bombarding me with the same accusations over and over again and misrepresenting me before others???

By the way it is 74AD with the fall of MASADA as the LAST Jewish stronghold and High place not 70AD. The Final curse of Leviticus 26 that Daniel and Gabriel were discussing involves the TOTAL destruction of all cities and high places, not just Jerusalem and the Temple. It is 74AD that is precicely "70 Weeks" after the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. But that is all a matter of what has been written and factual reality. Theological opinion will not change it.

But what I really wanted to address seeing as you have chosen to bring it up and hit me over the head with it again (another "demonstration dance" here) is this business about works and salvation. I will throw it back to you to answer 3 simple questions seeing as there are some very subtle and deceptive theologies about this.

Question 1. Seeing as James declares emphatically that "Faith without works is DEAD" (hence of no salvational value) Do you agree or disagree - with JAMES?

Question 2: If, as James declares so clearly, that faith without works is DEAD do you think a dead faith, that is, a faith without works, can save you?

Question 3: If Jesus declared that those who SAY "Lord, Lord" (ie aknowledge His lordship over them) but who do not actually DO (that's works by the way) the will of the Lord shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven do you think that those who SAY they have faith but do not obey and DO the will of the Lord (that is have faith without works) shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

To declare that faith without works is sufficient for salvation is to call Jesus and James liars for they BOTH have declared that faith WITHOUT works is of no salvational value at all.

Remember YOU are the one who has tossed this disagreement in here when it was not necessary. But having tossed it in let's use this also as another demonstration of the necessity to test EVERY theology against the word of God to see if it is in accordance with what the LORD has declared as the truth or not.

 

[Major]

You mean like your comments about "Replacement Theology" and "Preterism" that you just happen to toss into this thread from a disagreement on another thread? Or the new one you have just tossed in about works and Salvation (which you have misrepresented I might add). Why are you condemning Calvin for the very things you are doing and he is not??

If you have nothing against me why are you chasing me all over the board bombarding me with the same accusations over and over again and misrepresenting me before others???

By the way it is 74AD with the fall of MASADA as the LAST Jewish stronghold and High place not 70AD. The Final curse of Leviticus 26 that Daniel and Gabriel were discussing involves the TOTAL destruction of all cities and high places, not just Jerusalem and the Temple. It is 74AD that is precicely "70 Weeks" after the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. But that is all a matter of what has been written and factual reality. Theological opinion will not change it.

But what I really wanted to address seeing as you have chosen to bring it up and hit me over the head with it again (another "demonstration dance" here) is this business about works and salvation. I will throw it back to you to answer 3 simple questions seeing as there are some very subtle and deceptive theologies about this.

Question 1. Seeing as James declares emphatically that "Faith without works is DEAD" (hence of no salvational value) Do you agree or disagree - with JAMES?

Question 2: If, as James declares so clearly, that faith without works is DEAD do you think a dead faith, that is, a faith without works, can save you?

Question 3: If Jesus declared that those who SAY "Lord, Lord" (ie aknowledge His lordship over them) but who do not actually DO (that's works by the way) the will of the Lord shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven do you think that those who SAY they have faith but do not obey and DO the will of the Lord (that is have faith without works) shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

To declare that faith without works is sufficient for salvation is to call Jesus and James liars for they BOTH have declared that faith WITHOUT works is of no salvational value at all.

Remember YOU are the one who has tossed this disagreement in here when it was not necessary. But having tossed it in let's use this also as another demonstration of the necessity to test EVERY theology against the word of God to see if it is in accordance with what the LORD has declared as the truth or not.

UNBELIVABLE.

You state you do not believe in DAniels 70 week prophecy and that history says it took place in 74 AD. But I AM the one guility for saying you did.
You state you do in fact believe that the church has replaced the Jew but I am guility of saying that you did.

You state works are necessay for salvation, then challege me agin here, but I am guility of saying what you stated you already did say.

You see.......its all about controle. Its about YOU not me. You can come down off your pious pulpit any time you want to because you are doing nothing to substanciate you position.

All of your 6th grade questions have been answered my friend, but I am do it one more time. Faith after salvation is proof of your salvation. Every believer SHOULD want to do good works to the praise of God AFTER being saved BUT works are not part getting saved...PERIOD!

You are just plain wrong and simply refuse to admit it. Gods standard is perfection, something we cannot fathom since we never see it or experience it. His perfection is from his own nature, this is why he is separate from his creation. He has made one way for all mankind to know his love and forgiveness. This was done through the work of Jesus on the cross, he died for our sins. This is what is called grace, unmerited favor because of what he has done, we need to do no work to receive it. Its all been taken care of. This is what is called the gospel (good news).

There are some who believe this good news to a certain extent. But they will then add on a certain criteria for one to follow afterwards . By doing this they are proposing that having faith in the Gospel is not enough. Now Mistmann, what you are doing by demanding works are needed to be saved is to say that what Jesus did on the cross was NOT ENOUGH. That is a very dangereous thing to say.

What if someone is believing the gospel but feels they must do works, such as tithing, witnessing door to door, keeping the 10 commandments, being baptized a certain way etc. to have God accept them? They have then removed themselves from the gospel of grace.

All these things are done after we receive the free gift. To get salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's. Then the gospel, what he has done is said to be insufficient. They may not come right out and say this but in practice this is exactly what they are saying.

Now to prove this is all about YOU, do you really think that your opinions are so important that someone, me or anyone else would "chase" you around this site. That my dear friend is called "paranoia". You are just not that important.

 

[mistmann]

UNBELIVABLE.

You state you do not believe in DAniels 70 week prophecy and that history says it took place in 74 AD. But I AM the one guility for saying you did.
You state you do in fact believe that the church has replaced the Jew but I am guility of saying that you did.

You state works are necessay for salvation, then challege me agin here, but I am guility of saying what you stated you already did say.

You see.......its all about controle. Its about YOU not me. You can come down off your pious pulpit any time you want to because you are doing nothing to substanciate you position.

All of your 6th grade questions have been answered my friend, but I am do it one more time. Faith after salvation is proof of your salvation. Every believer SHOULD want to do good works to the praise of God AFTER being saved BUT works are not part getting saved...PERIOD!

You are just plain wrong and simply refuse to admit it. Gods standard is perfection, something we cannot fathom since we never see it or experience it. His perfection is from his own nature, this is why he is separate from his creation. He has made one way for all mankind to know his love and forgiveness. This was done through the work of Jesus on the cross, he died for our sins. This is what is called grace, unmerited favor because of what he has done, we need to do no work to receive it. Its all been taken care of. This is what is called the gospel (good news).

There are some who believe this good news to a certain extent. But they will then add on a certain criteria for one to follow afterwards . By doing this they are proposing that having faith in the Gospel is not enough. Now Mistmann, what you are doing by demanding works are needed to be saved is to say that what Jesus did on the cross was NOT ENOUGH. That is a very dangereous thing to say.

What if someone is believing the gospel but feels they must do works, such as tithing, witnessing door to door, keeping the 10 commandments, being baptized a certain way etc. to have God accept them? They have then removed themselves from the gospel of grace.

All these things are done after we receive the free gift. To get salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's. Then the gospel, what he has done is said to be insufficient. They may not come right out and say this but in practice this is exactly what they are saying.

Now to prove this is all about YOU, do you really think that your opinions are so important that someone, me or anyone else would "chase" you around this site. That my dear friend is called "paranoia". You are just not that important.

You say "UNBELIEVABLE" and then immediately turn around and in the very next sentence accuse me of not believing the 70 weeks prophecy of DANIEL. Yet I have made it abundantly clear time and time again it is BECAUSE I believe the words of DANIEL that I reject the "70th Week" THEOLOGIES you and others subscribe to that are contrary to the words of Daniel. It is the THEOLOGIES I reject, not the prophecies of Daniel, and yet you always accuse me of rejecting the prophecies of Daniel, not the "70th Week" Theologies.

Likewise despite my declaring any number of times that salvation is by the grace of God ALONE you accuse me of preaching salvation is by works ALONE. I have never made such a declaration in my life nor ever will do. But I will say it yet again salvation is by the GRACE Of god alone.

But you have sidestepped all three questions I note. Let me condense it to just one question. Do you believe that faith WITHOUT works will gain you entry to the Kingdom of Heaven?

You see what is an even more dangerous false teaching than works are what saves you is the far more subtle and deceptive false teaching that faith WITHOUT works will get you to heaven. That all you have to do is SAY the right words, pray the right prayer, perform the right rituals and HEY PRESTO! we are saved forever and ever regardless of what we do and don't do afterwards. The word of God Himself declares that Faith WITHOUT works ( works commensurate with faith obviously) is DEAD and will not get you to Heaven. Anything that teaches otherwise is false teaching.

Understand it is by our WORKS That we demonstrate the truth of our REPENTENCE that leads to salvation

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.


Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

 

[mistmann]

Now to prove this is all about YOU, do you really think that your opinions are so important that someone, me or anyone else would "chase" you around this site. That my dear friend is called "paranoia". You are just not that important.

And yet here you are ...... doing it yet again!

 

[calvin]

Major posted:

You and I disgreed on what John did on Patmos. You stated he was on a vacation enjoying the beach so to speakand I stated he was "exiled". If you choose that, then the Lord bless you.

Bold emphasis added. Major also in the same post posted:
[QUOTEBut to say as you did........."deliberately deceptive logic and intentional twisting of other's words are being generously applied........all on the pretext of assumed and or imagined godliness" I find disturbing since all the items I posted were directly copied and pasted from this very site from the actual words used.][/QUOTE] red emphasis added.
Thank you for proving my point Major. If you were truthful in the above quote then you would not have mis quoted me as you have done in the first of your quoted comments.(and indeed on many other quotes)

Here then Major is the challenge: I give you my consent, here, now, publicly to revisit that conversation you refer to and 'quote post' that particular post of mine, but that one post only because it is part of a private conversation, that you claim to truthfully recount. If it does not match exactly as you have stated, then what can be said of your Christian integrity? Must I spell it out? Even if the comments you ascribe to me were not intended to be a quote, that is what you implied by your words highlighted above in red.
Major it is not a matter of agreeing with people or not; it is misrepresenting what they are saying that is causing trouble here and elsewhere.
Again, I say copy/post it, or admit here, now, publicly that you are not of a wholly trustworthy character...post or retract; the choice is yours.
Ohh, and take care not to monkey with that post....may I remind you that one of the moderators is privy to the contents of that private conversation.
One more thing major, if you do not re post the subject post, the Lord willing, I will, do so myself so that your true nature will be on public show for all to see. You post it or I intend to. All I want is a forum where peaceful and respectful discussion can take place on any topic of a Biblical nature.

 

[Rumely]

While I have a certain morbid interest in seeing where this thread goes, I doubt anything will be resolved here. The parties are free, of course, to work out their differences in private conversation, but I am locking this thread.