Tithe Doctrine/Principle

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

I'm sure many of you agree with the Bible in what is called the "tithe" in most circles, or your "giving," and that it's based upon whatsoever one purposes in his own heart. That's just NT teaching.

Then there's that pesky little thing some people label as the tithe "principle." That one seems more difficult to dispatch since it's a strong contrivance of human imagination in this regard when applying it to what Abraham did in relation to Melchizedek.

Now, this topic is indeed a sacred thing to some, so please don't take any of this in the wrong way, and I'm sure we'll let you know when you've done just that.

I brought this up in the hopes to enliven some constructive conversation on this topic, and to hopefully push some into a deeper study of the Bible, and also to bring to the understanding of some the need to be more critical in their study of the Bible so that they honor it for what it says rather than to assume things into the text what simply isn't there.

So, what are your thoughts on that elusive "principle" Abraham allegedly established when handing over to Melchizedek the tenth of all? Granted, the term "principle" isn't in the text, apart from some commentary in the footnotes of some Bibles. How can what Abraham did possibly carry over to us a "principle" that not even the Jews were ever required to model in their culture or religious practices?

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I'm sure many of you agree with the Bible in what is called the "tithe" in most circles, or your "giving," and that it's based upon whatsoever one purposes in his own heart. That's just NT teaching.

Then there's that pesky little thing some people label as the tithe "principle." That one seems more difficult to dispatch since it's a strong contrivance of human imagination in this regard when applying it to what Abraham did in relation to Melchizedek.

NoHebrews 7:w, this topic is indeed a sacred thing to some, so please don't take any of this in the wrong way, and I'm sure we'll let you know when you've done just that.

I brought this up in the hopes to enliven some constructive conversation on this topic, and to hopefully push some into a deeper study of the Bible, and also to bring to the understanding of some the need to be more critical in their study of the Bible so that they honor it for what it says rather than to assume things into the text what simply isn't there.

So, what are your thoughts on that elusive "principle" Abraham allegedly established when handing over to Melchizedek the tenth of all? Granted, the term "principle" isn't in the text, apart from some commentary in the footnotes of some Bibles. How can what Abraham did possibly carry over to us a "principle" that not even the Jews were ever required to model in their culture or religious practices?

MM
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I believe Abraham's tithe to Melchisedec was a foreshadowing of a greater priesthood than that which came from Abraham (Levi). The Book of Hebrews explains (Chap 7) that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah which had no recorded Priesthood lineage. The latter holds a superior Priesthood being an eternal one (without beginning of days, or end of life) than the Levitical Priesthood.
I don't believe the purpose of that account (Gen 14:18-20) was to set up a 'tithe principle'.
 
crossnote said:
I believe Abraham's tithe to Melchisedec was a foreshadowing of a greater priesthood than that which came from Abraham (Levi). The Book of Hebrews explains (Chap 7) that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah which had no recorded Priesthood lineage. The latter holds a superior Priesthood being an eternal one (without beginning of days, or end of life) than the Levitical Priesthood.
I don't believe the purpose of that account (Gen 14:18-20) was to set up a 'tithe principle'.
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Excellent post, CN. I love it when there are posts recounting what's actually written as opposed to the emotional theologies out there that have been used to beat so many into submission.

Now, I will temper all this with the acknowledgement that we're all free to give as we choose, and if the tithe (tenth) as a percentage of your income is the guidance one chooses for himself, then go for it. The problem arises when people refer to it as a "principle," which has been a battering ram used against those who believe in the actual freedom in giving we all have been given according to the words of scripture on this topic. Implying any "principle" for tithing implies a tremendous degree of "requirement" or "doctrinal" absolute that carries with it the necessity for obedience.

The human contrived "principle" for tithing, as it's used by many, is the go-to in order to avoid the legalistic trappings of tithing when pointing at the Law. Knowing that "the Law was until John" (the baptist, that is), they run amok of the fact that the tithe, as defined by the Law, NEVER had anything to do with earned wages in exchange for labor and/or talent. Even the men who harvested the yield, and thus earned wages for their labor, were not required to hand over one red cent to the Levites, and yet some people today are STILL leaving tire tracks across the foreheads of others when running over them with that old, worn out misapplication of the stake of the Law that many a pulpit-pounder has driven through the hearts of their captives. Shame, shame, shame...

This enlivens another topic brought up in another thread that runs along this same vein. It seems there's this idea out there that, because God rested on the seventh day of His creative work, and thus "hallowed" it, that such also establishes a "principle" that surpasses the Law since the lawful requirement for observance was handed over ONLY to Israel, not the Gentiles. God did it, hallowed it, and therefore is something all followers of Christ should follow as well...never minding that nowhere did the Lord Jesus ever point back to that in Genesis, as is also true of Paul, Peter, or any of the other apostles as binding upon Gentiles.

What I'm driving at here is that dare we read scripture for what it says, AND what it DOESN'T say in relation to all the additives shoved into the white spaces around the actual words, the silence is strikingly revealing of the line of distinction between biblical teaching and man-made traditions, which, when applied as requirement, become unauthorized requirements used to crush others under the weight.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I'm sure many of you agree with the Bible in what is called the "tithe" in most circles, or your "giving," and that it's based upon whatsoever one purposes in his own heart. That's just NT teaching.

Then there's that pesky little thing some people label as the tithe "principle." That one seems more difficult to dispatch since it's a strong contrivance of human imagination in this regard when applying it to what Abraham did in relation to Melchizedek.

Now, this topic is indeed a sacred thing to some, so please don't take any of this in the wrong way, and I'm sure we'll let you know when you've done just that.

I brought this up in the hopes to enliven some constructive conversation on this topic, and to hopefully push some into a deeper study of the Bible, and also to bring to the understanding of some the need to be more critical in their study of the Bible so that they honor it for what it says rather than to assume things into the text what simply isn't there.

So, what are your thoughts on that elusive "principle" Abraham allegedly established when handing over to Melchizedek the tenth of all? Granted, the term "principle" isn't in the text, apart from some commentary in the footnotes of some Bibles. How can what Abraham did possibly carry over to us a "principle" that not even the Jews were ever required to model in their culture or religious practices?

MM
Click to expand...

Always a good topic. I believe that the Bible tells us that when tithing was established, Israel’s tithe was over 22%, and the people were to take care of the Levites. The Levites then tithed by bringing the 10% into the storehouse. This is the biblical Tithe. The New Testament does not require tithing but free will giving under the new Covenant. God mentioned no specific amount to the church. He is not telling prophets to tell the people to send in a $1,000 seed. In fact, Jesus, nor the apostles never used the word “seed” for giving money.

I am also one who does not believe that the tithe began with the Law!

According to Genesis 4:2-4 , before the Law was ever given to Moses, Abel and Cain brought the first fruits of their labor to God.

So then, before it was made Law, the principle was in effect from the Garden of Eden.

What is interesting then is that God did not command Adam to tithe, nor is it mentioned that Adam tithe of his own accord. Cain and Abel learned to sacrifice from Adam, to give an offering that was to be of blood not something that was from the work of their own hands (Genesis 4), but they did not tithe.

Job, the book that predates Genesis, and the man of whom we have much detail of his life lived in the (pre?) Abrahamic period. He sacrificed but there is no mention of tithing. Considering how inventive some of the promoters of seed faith giving are today, it is surprising they have not found this the cause of Job’s affliction. You would think that Job would have needed to give something to remove Satan’s hand of attack against himself. Yet, the Bible is silent on this matter.

The fact remains-- there is no mention of giving any tenth of goods to a person, priest or God UNTIL Abraham.

Another interesting tidbit.......The word “tithe” is used 13 times in the Bible. Not once do you see the word “money” used with it. The word “tithes” is used 21 times in the Bible. The word “money” is not mentioned with it!
 
Major said:
Always a good topic. I believe that the Bible tells us that when tithing was established, Israel’s tithe was over 22%, and the people were to take care of the Levites. The Levites then tithed by bringing the 10% into the storehouse. This is the biblical Tithe. The New Testament does not require tithing but free will giving under the new Covenant. God mentioned no specific amount to the church. He is not telling prophets to tell the people to send in a $1,000 seed. In fact, Jesus, nor the apostles never used the word “seed” for giving money.

I am also one who does not believe that the tithe began with the Law!

According to Genesis 4:2-4 , before the Law was ever given to Moses, Abel and Cain brought the first fruits of their labor to God.

So then, before it was made Law, the principle was in effect from the Garden of Eden.

What is interesting then is that God did not command Adam to tithe, nor is it mentioned that Adam tithe of his own accord. Cain and Abel learned to sacrifice from Adam, to give an offering that was to be of blood not something that was from the work of their own hands (Genesis 4), but they did not tithe.

Job, the book that predates Genesis, and the man of whom we have much detail of his life lived in the (pre?) Abrahamic period. He sacrificed but there is no mention of tithing. Considering how inventive some of the promoters of seed faith giving are today, it is surprising they have not found this the cause of Job’s affliction. You would think that Job would have needed to give something to remove Satan’s hand of attack against himself. Yet, the Bible is silent on this matter.

The fact remains-- there is no mention of giving any tenth of goods to a person, priest or God UNTIL Abraham.

Another interesting tidbit.......The word “tithe” is used 13 times in the Bible. Not once do you see the word “money” used with it. The word “tithes” is used 21 times in the Bible. The word “money” is not mentioned with it!
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Um, pardon me, Major, but please enlighten me. How is it that Abel and Cain were in the garden when they came into existence after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, and there was a sword set in place to guard the entrance into the garden from any man or woman going back into it?

Also, was there a percentage mentioned concerning the first fruits Abel and Cain brought that was pleasing to the Lord? From my recollection and reading of the text, it wasn't about the quantity or percentage, but rather the content.

Just trying to hold everything to the actual text as to what's actually stated, from what I can see. Please clarify, because I'm interested in your thoughts on this, and what translation you're using. Some translation can at times inject things that aren't in the original.

MM

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Um, pardon me, Major, but please enlighten me. How is it that Abel and Cain were in the garden when they came into existence after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, and there was a sword set in place to guard the entrance into the garden from any man or woman going back into it?

Also, was there a percentage mentioned concerning the first fruits Abel and Cain brought that was pleasing to the Lord? From my recollection and reading of the text, it wasn't about the quantity or percentage, but rather the content.

Just trying to hold everything to the actual text as to what's actually stated, from what I can see. Please clarify, because I'm interested in your thoughts on this, and what translation you're using. Some translation can at times inject things that aren't in the original.

MM

MM
Click to expand...


Yep....you are correct. I got ahead of myself didnt I!
 
God must like 10s because there are 10 commandments.

And we have 10 fingers on our hands.

And 10 toes.

When the metric system came in, it was much easier to measure things accurately. And also the library has the Dewey DECIMAL system.
 
I also believe there must have originally just been 10 months in a year, because september, october, november and December were Latin for 7,8, 9, 10th month. If you want to research and find out why that is, be my guest.

Thank goodness our current numbering system is base 10 because any other number system would take ages getting used to. Maybe for people with odd fingers and toes?
 
Lanolin said:
God must like 10s because there are 10 commandments.

And we have 10 fingers on our hands.

And 10 toes.

When the metric system came in, it was much easier to measure things accurately. And also the library has the Dewey DECIMAL system.
Click to expand...
Don’t tell that to the 12 Apostles or the 12 Tribes of Israel or 12 sons of Ishmael, 12 loaves etc. as a matter of fact I wouldn’t be surprised if you find 12 at least 10 times more than 10. lol
 
Major said:
Yep....you are correct. I got ahead of myself didnt I!
Click to expand...

Then to answer your question about the % of the boys sacrifice.

Hebrews 11:4 ....
"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks."

It seems to me that it was all about "quality" over quality or a %.
Abel brought the firstborn animals from his flock and also their fat portions while all it says of Cain was that he brought the fruit of the ground. Perhaps Cain had just thrown together his sacrifice, or maybe deliberately offered the stunted and blighted portions of his crops to the Lord.

Then in Gen. 4:7, God asks Cain.......
“If you do well, will you not be accepted?”

The implication there is that Cain had not done well but had unrepentant sin when he offered the sacrifice. Perhaps Cain had an unrepentant heart, and God may have rejected the sacrifice because of Cain’s defiant attitude.

1 John 3:11-12 may support this position..........
“We should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.”

This passage tells us that Cain’s works were evil before he murdered Abel. And these “evil works” could refer to Cain’s offering itself. This would imply that Cain did, in fact, violate instructions God had given (but that aren’t listed in Genesis) for what type or quality of offerings to give.

Of course these are just opinions and in fact I am reading into the Scriptures what is not there.
 
Lanolin said:
I also believe there must have originally just been 10 months in a year, because september, october, november and December were Latin for 7,8, 9, 10th month. If you want to research and find out why that is, be my guest.

Thank goodness our current numbering system is base 10 because any other number system would take ages getting used to. Maybe for people with odd fingers and toes?
Click to expand...

Hmm. I thought politicians all had 13 fingers and toes, being so different and all...
 
Major said:
Then to answer your question about the % of the boys sacrifice.

Hebrews 11:4 ....
"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks."

It seems to me that it was all about "quality" over quality or a %.
Abel brought the firstborn animals from his flock and also their fat portions while all it says of Cain was that he brought the fruit of the ground. Perhaps Cain had just thrown together his sacrifice, or maybe deliberately offered the stunted and blighted portions of his crops to the Lord.

Then in Gen. 4:7, God asks Cain.......
“If you do well, will you not be accepted?”

The implication there is that Cain had not done well but had unrepentant sin when he offered the sacrifice. Perhaps Cain had an unrepentant heart, and God may have rejected the sacrifice because of Cain’s defiant attitude.

1 John 3:11-12 may support this position..........
“We should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.”

This passage tells us that Cain’s works were evil before he murdered Abel. And these “evil works” could refer to Cain’s offering itself. This would imply that Cain did, in fact, violate instructions God had given (but that aren’t listed in Genesis) for what type or quality of offerings to give.

Of course these are just opinions and in fact I am reading into the Scriptures what is not there.
Click to expand...

To add to that, Major, we can also observe that it was the content of the offerings. Abel brought blood and meat, where Ain brought produce from the ground. Blood is what's acceptable to the Lord. The life is in the blood, and the Blood of Jesus cleanses mankind.

Just wanted to throw that in.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
To add to that, Major, we can also observe that it was the content of the offerings. Abel brought blood and meat, where Ain brought produce from the ground. Blood is what's acceptable to the Lord. The life is in the blood, and the Blood of Jesus cleanses mankind.

Just wanted to throw that in.

MM
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Yes sir.
 
crossnote said:
Don’t tell that to the 12 Apostles or the 12 Tribes of Israel or 12 sons of Ishmael, 12 loaves etc. as a matter of fact I wouldn’t be surprised if you find 12 at least 10 times more than 10. lol
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so are there 12 commandments since Jesus added two more?
 
Oh GST is now 15%. It has gone up.
And tax rates vary depending on how much you earn as well. I think the lowest is 10.5%
It would be so much easier if it was all 10% and if you earned lower than $1000 a week you shouldn't have to tithe. Or something like that.
 
10 + 2 = 12

eg ten commandments (the ones God wrote on stone with His finger and gave to Moses) plus the two new ones Jesus gave. Unless my addition is wrong.
 
Lanolin said:
10 + 2 = 12

eg ten commandments (the ones God wrote on stone with His finger and gave to Moses) plus the two new ones Jesus gave. Unless my addition is wrong.
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It is estimated God gave 613 Commandments to Israel. Jesus didn't add two, He just said the Law hangs on those two.

And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Mat 22:37-40)

(Not wrong addition, just a different math course)
 
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