Xian Pugilist
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Errrr, thumbs, that should read, Oh OK I will bite...
Tithing Is Not A New Testament Principle
- Thread starter Alan Walton
- Start date
Personally it seems to me that the blessings come not from God because He received His due portion, but because in giving the tithe believers put themselves in the place of proper obedience and in subjection to God. IMO, tithing was clearly commanded in the Old Test. and served as the minimum standard for giving in the New Test.
Actually, the verses in Malachi are the only verses in the Bible where the Lord allows you to test Him, and He even suggests it. IMO that makes tithing a very important deal with God.
Xian Pugilist
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What fun is this. It seems we mostly agree. :|
(quickly looks over shoulder, out the window, nothing blowing up, nor lightening coming my way, GOOD!)
I have to agree with Agricola. I have seen God work in the area if tithing. When you live from paycheck to paycheck and want to give that 10%, look at you income versus your expenses, don't see a "10% to give, but give it anyway. You cannot show on paper where that 10% comes from. God always supplies. He will make your groceries stretch or your electric bill smaller. He just takes care if everything.
Hello Julia, and as this is your first post here, allow me to welcome you.
I agree with what you have shared here and have found the same graciousness of the Lord myself.
If we believe the account of Elijah and the widow, 1 Ki 17:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17. we can go from strength to strength with the Lord More to the point, if we believe and trust in the Lord, we will see great things happening.
I agree with what you have shared here and have found the same graciousness of the Lord myself.
If we believe the account of Elijah and the widow, 1 Ki 17:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17. we can go from strength to strength with the Lord More to the point, if we believe and trust in the Lord, we will see great things happening.
In the Old Testament, the tithe was always agriculture products given to the priests and Levites. There were many other offerings that the Jews were required to give, and if you added them all up you would discover that the average Jew gave about 30% of his income. It is true that in 2 Cor. 8 & 9 we are told that whatever we give it is to be in proportionate to what we have, but I don't see the ten percent rule implied or required of Christians. Grady Nutt use to say, "God loves a cheerful giver and He'll take from a grouch as well."
Xian Pugilist
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I hope you post more.....
It is also said in his own book by J.C. Penny that he gave 90% to the Lord and lived on the 10% left and look at what happened to him.
Xian Pugilist
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I have heard the guy down in So Cal, the author, was it purpose driven life? He prayed in washington once, I can't remember his name or his church's name either, anyway, he takes no salary from the church and lives on 10% of his earnings.
I've never verified that, and don't even know how to verify it, but I've heard it reported that way, and I can't even vouch for the reporter since I don't remember who it was.
Do not remove tag from mattress.
I've never verified that, and don't even know how to verify it, but I've heard it reported that way, and I can't even vouch for the reporter since I don't remember who it was.
Do not remove tag from mattress.
Thanks for your posts. My new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? answers many of your confusions about tithing. Available at Amazon.com, oliverjohn.weebly.com and alphawolfpublishing.com
Tithe / offering / gifts....
Reveals a symptom of the 'heart condition'....
Fruitless for the giver if not done 'in love'.....
Best when it is a true sacrifice ....
Reveals a symptom of the 'heart condition'....
Fruitless for the giver if not done 'in love'.....
Best when it is a true sacrifice ....
As I mentioned yesterday, my new book, Tithing - financial disaster of Christians? clarifies many of the issues raise by this sensitive subject. I am not concerned about those who are comfortable with tithing and can afford it, but those who are struggling with the burden of tithing and other offerings, particularly with the way it is put forward today. The Church has been turned into another business which is frightening and disheartening. The Church is a place of sanctury, but has now been turned by some church leaders into a sacry environment. Our salvation is with the Lord, and not with any man.
Attachments
Wow has it really been a year since this thread ended.
Tithing is only a financial disaster for people who follow the prosperity movement and only allowed to tithe with money. there's number of cases where people are encouraged to max out their credit cards to donate, if they do they will be rewarded many times over, assistants went around the crowd with card readers. many people did max out their credit cards and no doubt lived to regret it.
When is a tithe not a tithe? Its only right we give God back something he gives us. call it tithe if you want, or don't call it a tithe, principle is the same.
Tithing is only a financial disaster for people who follow the prosperity movement and only allowed to tithe with money. there's number of cases where people are encouraged to max out their credit cards to donate, if they do they will be rewarded many times over, assistants went around the crowd with card readers. many people did max out their credit cards and no doubt lived to regret it.
When is a tithe not a tithe? Its only right we give God back something he gives us. call it tithe if you want, or don't call it a tithe, principle is the same.
We are under Paul's grace giving method. The tithe is definitely nowhere commanded in the NT, but grace giving is. Paul says each should set aside on the first day of the week as God has prospered him. Prospered means what we've earned above and beyond what our personal physical needs demand like rent food etc. Note that we are to set it aside. We don't give a check to our church immediately but set aside money for the purpose of giving. After this account is set up separately from our daily expense account like our bank account, we are to pray about where God would have us give. The majority of these resources should go to support the pastor at our local church but as needs arise within the body we can give accordingly to meet the needs of others. This is the New Testament form of giving. It might be 10,20,30,40,50% it might be all, it might be less it might be nothing all predicated on how God prospered us that week.
I can't see any specific Biblical support for a %-type regular tithe. As far as I can tell, the OT Hebrew's tithe was essentially to support their government/ruling class and to promote community (tithes to feasts) and (once every three years) charity. I think we do this now when we pay taxes. I think a lot of modern Christians have just come to see their pastors/church leaders as the "Levites," but the role of the Levites in the OT was to manage the affairs of the nation -- they were the leaders of both the church and the government. The role of the Levite doesn't exist for us, but it seems like it's a lot closer to modern governmental officials than modern church leaders.
So I think the best reaction we can have to Biblical teaching is to not think about money in terms of "tithing," but just being generous.
For example, I once went to a large church that had a very expensive building and all the latest technology, and a large salaried staff. A LOT of money was needed to sustain this church. I would now feel very uncomfortable tithing to a church like that. I'm not sure if I could really think of that tithe as "giving to God." I would rather be generous with my money by specifically helping out someone who needs it. For example, the city I live in has a lot of homeless people who beg for money. I have a rule that I don't just hand out cash, but I will offer to buy a meal for both of us, and chat with them for a while as we eat. I've gotten to know some good people this way, and have had many opportunities to do evangelism. I think of that as "giving to God" much more than I did when I tithed to that large church.
The Bible teaches that we should be generous, no question. But should we tithe to our church? Well, I guess it depends on how your specific church is organised. If you've decided that you're going to have church leaders who don't earn a wage but minister full time, well you'd be kind of a jerk to not support them, if you have the means. My current church isn't organised like that, so I feel like I have more freedom when presented with other opportunities for generosity. I do give money to my church when we do events that need support. Like, we have a free community bbq once each week, and I give money to that specific event to help pay for the food. I also make sure to attend that event to be a part of the lives of community members who are in need.
When I was looking for a church community in a new city once, I attended a service at a church that I found out required its members to provide copies of their bank statements to prove they were giving 10%. That kind of stuff makes my skin crawl.
So I think the best reaction we can have to Biblical teaching is to not think about money in terms of "tithing," but just being generous.
For example, I once went to a large church that had a very expensive building and all the latest technology, and a large salaried staff. A LOT of money was needed to sustain this church. I would now feel very uncomfortable tithing to a church like that. I'm not sure if I could really think of that tithe as "giving to God." I would rather be generous with my money by specifically helping out someone who needs it. For example, the city I live in has a lot of homeless people who beg for money. I have a rule that I don't just hand out cash, but I will offer to buy a meal for both of us, and chat with them for a while as we eat. I've gotten to know some good people this way, and have had many opportunities to do evangelism. I think of that as "giving to God" much more than I did when I tithed to that large church.
The Bible teaches that we should be generous, no question. But should we tithe to our church? Well, I guess it depends on how your specific church is organised. If you've decided that you're going to have church leaders who don't earn a wage but minister full time, well you'd be kind of a jerk to not support them, if you have the means. My current church isn't organised like that, so I feel like I have more freedom when presented with other opportunities for generosity. I do give money to my church when we do events that need support. Like, we have a free community bbq once each week, and I give money to that specific event to help pay for the food. I also make sure to attend that event to be a part of the lives of community members who are in need.
When I was looking for a church community in a new city once, I attended a service at a church that I found out required its members to provide copies of their bank statements to prove they were giving 10%. That kind of stuff makes my skin crawl.
That's cool that you dine with homeless people, I admire that. Under the Mosaic Law the total amount given 22% when you add all of the required giving up. One of the purposes of the law of Moses was to keep the old test saint in a state of spiritual immaturity. To fall from grace in the new test means to remove ourselves from living by faith and subjecting ourselves back under a system of man made rules as a means of reaching sanctification. By enforcing tithe believers are giving in an immature manner. God wants it all, He doesn't need our resources but we should be able to walk by faith in the event that all of our resources were to disappear. A good model for grace giving is what some have chosen to do is to open a separate checking account and called that account God's account. They make a vow never to use the funds for any other purpose than for giving to God. This could mean feeding the poor or funding church projects, missionaries etc.
One area of giving that God has chosen to bless me tremendously in return of is Romans 15:27. I've learned that looking out for Jewish believers and funding Jewish evangelism is a commandment from that passage. I too was once homeless (at 16) in downtown Los Angeles living on skid row. As a result my level of education didn't go beyond the 9th grade. God rewards those who bless Israel and in particular believers amongst the Jews. He may not always choose to return the blessing in terms of finances, it could be spiritual blessings by way of fruitbearing too. But I must magnify The Lord as He has provided me the ability to support my family of five here in Honolulu, and has chosen to exceedingly prosper me financially.
Jack, I was 25 days short of 45 when I stopped running from God and entered the Church, broke, no car and dumped by my third wife. I rode a bicycle purchased from an auction with two may-pop tires and all the money I had for anything more than sustaining life was earned in the Juke Joints on Friday and Saturday nights on the stage.
I confess, I have never tithed 10%! It has always ranged between 20% and 30%, depending on what the LORD has laid on my heart. I never suggest an amount nor a percentage to anyone, that is far above my pay grade... I'm not God. But I will tell you that I began with ten percent and the LORD gave me the increase that, to this day, I can not explain. The LORD, seeing my heart led me to open my pocket book wider for Him to take as He needed and the increase is still beyond my understanding.
Is there a lesson here? You bet'cha! God did not save part of anyone, He saves every bit of every one of us. God cares about what collor socks I put on in the morning... I am His ambassador! This means the air I breath is supplied by God, the water I drink is supplied by God and what I'm getting at is, every bit of you belongs to God, the Father and if you want to be blessed by God, stop clutching!
The New Testament argument is a devise used by Satan and is just pure nonsense! The Christian Bible is the same Bible the Jewish Believer used and uses! We have split some of the books in two and they number 39 but otherwise the Bibles are the same. The first four books of the New Testament are a recounting of the Gospel of the Christ, Jesus.
Oops, didn't mean to post yet... getting senile!
Couple the Gospels with the other 23 books and you have the God ordained best Life Application Commentary on the Bible ever written. Jesus taught from this Bible, Paul taught from it, Peter taught from it as did every early believer. There is no such thing as a New Testament principle!
Couple the Gospels with the other 23 books and you have the God ordained best Life Application Commentary on the Bible ever written. Jesus taught from this Bible, Paul taught from it, Peter taught from it as did every early believer. There is no such thing as a New Testament principle!
TS,I could live on 10% of my salary too if I owned JC Penny
Sad, the point just flew in one ear and then out the other. Back up, read my post, the one just before this débâcle and then think, please. The more Mr. Penny gave, the more God blessed Him. You really ought to read his story.