Tithing vs Giving

[Lanolin]

We welcome all who have something to share.

When it comes to roofs on so-called "church buildings" and such, I don't see that the Bible can ever be used in defense of any requirement to support such luxuries, unless maybe one is partaking of that luxury. Otherwise they are free-loaders. Some have tried to point to the temple to defend the idea of "church buildings" being a necessity rather than a luxury, as if that is a legitimate parallel. No. That's a concoction from the imaginations of those who don't see that communal facilities are purely a luxury as opposed to a necessity. Believers can gather in many ways and places without the enormous expense of facilities and all the other trappings.

I suspect that the day is almost upon us when those groupings with facilities, especially those that are tax exempt, will be forced to teach only within the confines of a state sanctioned system of beliefs, such as is happening in Canada right now, and has been going on in China. We need to learn to divorce ourselves from things that can serve as an enslaving boat anchor so that more believers can learn to aspire upward to being a functional Church body that ministers and thrives apart from communal facilities and hirelings. Those things and people are being out-paced by a wicked culture that is more and more becoming intolerant of the Church, and will only embrace those liberal groupings that hold to the same, wicked values as secular culture.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

There is definitely a place for having things in common but it would better to GIVE than to tithe as such.
Why because, say someone has an extra house, (which amazingly, some people actually DO have) they could use that as a meeting place, rather than ask those who don't have anything to give to tithe from the little they earn.

 

[Musicmaster]

If I may:

There are two main models for the gathering of believers. The original model was gathering in homes. The institutional model, although stated to be modeled after the temple (with which I disagree, and can defend my position if asked). The parallels for the latter claim have yet to be soundly established.

So, I attended the institutional model much of my life, and have since gone to the house church model. Both are fraught with their own potential problems, given our fallen state in sin, so neither is superior to the other in that regard. Neither is perfect. I simply prefer the house church model because it's more like a family, with us facing one another like a family rather than an audience looking at the backs of each other's heads. Just my preference.

100% of our giving goes to the meeting of needs, as was the case in the early Church model of house churches. Again, we aren't perfect, but we do seek to uphold all of scripture for what it says, as I'm sure everyone here seeks. There are institutional organizations that also seek to adhere to what all scripture teaches, and I salute them in Christ Jesus.

We will never have 6,000 in one place like that guy with all the shiny, white teeth, who tells his people that he wants all of them to feel good about just who, what, and where they are in their lives (with no call to repentance for those living in sin). We are far fewer in number than most of the institutional models out there, and that's ok. Greater numbers don't legitimize a gathering above two or three:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So, if it's two or two thousand...what matters the most is Who is center stage in that gathering.

Can I get an Amen?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The idea of churches speaking against the government came from LBJ's adminstration in I believe 1965 and was included in somekind of amendment to a Postal Law.

Um...I'm not sure where that came from. I don't recall saying anything about speaking against the government. I did mentioned talking from the pulpit about candidates and moral issues within culture and society.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There is definitely a place for having things in common but it would better to GIVE than to tithe as such.
Why because, say someone has an extra house, (which amazingly, some people actually DO have) they could use that as a meeting place, rather than ask those who don't have anything to give to tithe from the little they earn.

Oh, my, yes. It's wonderful how many ways there are to bless others who are in need. Sometimes it's just listening to them, others it's buying groceries, paying a bill or two. What's difficult at times is to give responsibly.

One time, two rough looking women riding a Harley (I think they were women. Sometimes it's hard to tell.) They claimed they were from out of town (although the license plate was local), and that they were about out of gas and wanted to know if we'd give them some gas money. One of our group offered to follow them to the gas station just down the street and pay for them to fill their tank.

Rather than to accept the offer, they waved us all off with curses and finger gestures, and rode off into the night.

Others have stopped by asking for money for food. Almost every time we offered to meet them at the local grocery store to buy them some groceries, they declined, almost always giving us the California wave with the middle finger, a few four-letter expletives as they departed, and off they went.

Wise as serpents, harmless as doves. That's a great way to operate along all fronts of life.

MM

 

[Major]

Um...I'm not sure where that came from. I don't recall saying anything about speaking against the government. I did mentioned talking from the pulpit about candidates and moral issues within culture and society.

MM

That is what I was referring to.

 

[Major]

If I may:

There are two main models for the gathering of believers. The original model was gathering in homes. The institutional model, although stated to be modeled after the temple (with which I disagree, and can defend my position if asked). The parallels for the latter claim have yet to be soundly established.

So, I attended the institutional model much of my life, and have since gone to the house church model. Both are fraught with their own potential problems, given our fallen state in sin, so neither is superior to the other in that regard. Neither is perfect. I simply prefer the house church model because it's more like a family, with us facing one another like a family rather than an audience looking at the backs of each other's heads. Just my preference.

100% of our giving goes to the meeting of needs, as was the case in the early Church model of house churches. Again, we aren't perfect, but we do seek to uphold all of scripture for what it says, as I'm sure everyone here seeks. There are institutional organizations that also seek to adhere to what all scripture teaches, and I salute them in Christ Jesus.

We will never have 6,000 in one place like that guy with all the shiny, white teeth, who tells his people that he wants all of them to feel good about just who, what, and where they are in their lives (with no call to repentance for those living in sin). We are far fewer in number than most of the institutional models out there, and that's ok. Greater numbers don't legitimize a gathering above two or three:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So, if it's two or two thousand...what matters the most is Who is center stage in that gathering.

Can I get an Amen?

MM

Yes you can........Amen!

 

[ModeratorTeam]

STAFF CAUTION: Several posts in this thread (and elsewhere in the forum) have been deleted because a couple participants have not followed a no-contact order. This thread can continue ONLY if that no contact order is followed.


23

 

[Major]

Oh, my, yes. It's wonderful how many ways there are to bless others who are in need. Sometimes it's just listening to them, others it's buying groceries, paying a bill or two. What's difficult at times is to give responsibly.

One time, two rough looking women riding a Harley (I think they were women. Sometimes it's hard to tell.) They claimed they were from out of town (although the license plate was local), and that they were about out of gas and wanted to know if we'd give them some gas money. One of our group offered to follow them to the gas station just down the street and pay for them to fill their tank.

Rather than to accept the offer, they waved us all off with curses and finger gestures, and rode off into the night.

Others have stopped by asking for money for food. Almost every time we offered to meet them at the local grocery store to buy them some groceries, they declined, almost always giving us the California wave with the middle finger, a few four-letter expletives as they departed, and off they went.

Wise as serpents, harmless as doves. That's a great way to operate along all fronts of life.

MM

We get about 3 people a week stop and ask for "gas" money.

It is funny that they always seem to have a cell pone and cigerettes in their pocket.

 

[rtm3039]

We get about 3 people a week stop and ask for "gas" money.

It is funny that they always seem to have a cell pone and cigerettes in their pocket.

Yes. On my route home, I run into the same three. The first is an older white guy. He is actually quite pleasant. This past couple of months; however, he went from just walking up and down the turnpike exit to a wheelchair. The second, a couple of blocks later is a young black man who looks healthy as a horse. He has a very intolerant facial gesture, when someone does not give him money. The third, a block further, is a young woman that is apparently not emotionally well. Aside from occasionally talking to herself, if you do not give her money, she just throws herself on top of the hood of your car and slides off the side.

To the first, I always give him something. To the other two, I did once, but that's about it.

Rtm

 

[Musicmaster]

From what has been shared here, giving can be fraught with all kinds of decisively lucid warning bells and whistles that say to keep thy wallet in thy pocket....

I've encountered people on occasion who thought that we should give blindly, as Jesus would allegedly have done.

When I asked about giving with integrity and discernment, they countered with the idea that it may be an angel playing the part of a junkie or drunkard just to see if I truly have the spirit of giving. To that I said that all mankind and angels alike are charged with the requirement to not give even the appearance of evil, and if an angel is going to present themselves in a manner that would give us reason to withhold in order to avoid becoming enablers, that angel himself lacks discernment, not I for not giving to them what may be the contributing means to ending the life of a drunk or junkie.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

That is what I was referring to.

(scratching head) I still don't understand. How is it speaking against the government when, for example, ministers like Dr. D. James Kennedy addressed the issues of culture and candidates in relation to morality? You have piqued my interest.

MM

 

[rtm3039]

From what has been shared here, giving can be fraught with all kinds of decisively lucid warning bells and whistles that say to keep thy wallet in thy pocket....

I've encountered people on occasion who thought that we should give blindly, as Jesus would allegedly have done.

When I asked about giving with integrity and discernment, they countered with the idea that it may be an angel playing the part of a junkie or drunkard just to see if I truly have the spirit giving. To that I said that all mankind and angels alike are charged with the requirement to not give even the appearance of evil, and if an angel is going to present themselves in a manner that would give us reason to withhold in order to avoid becoming enablers, that angel himself lacks discernment, not I for not giving to them what may be the contributing means to ending their lives.

MM

I can't say I ever get into those kind of discussions. I give when I feel it is right and no one get's to second guess me. I did have a brief discussion about this with my wife once, but when I brought up the fact that we (our whole family) is blessed and want of nothing, she just , said "yes, you are right," and that was the end of that.

 

[rtm3039]

(scratching head) I still don't understand. How is it speaking against the government when, for example, ministers like Dr. D. James Kennedy addressed the issues of culture and candidates in relation to morality? You have piqued my interest.

MM

In the past four years, Romans 13:1-5 have been difficult to obey. I am still not sure the current interpretation of this passage. We have so many governments and some (mostly in other countries, not not all) really bad leaders. "If you do what is right, you won’t need to be afraid of your rulers" appears to be at odds with itself.

 

[Nazarene Servant]

In the past four years, Romans 13:1-5 have been difficult to obey. I am still not sure the current interpretation of this passage. We have so many governments and some (mostly in other countries, not not all) really bad leaders. "If you do what is right, you won’t need to be afraid of your rulers" appears to be at odds with itself.

I am curious what was to not like about the last four years.
Democrats are pro-abortion, homosexuality, anti-gun, and anti-free speech.
Wouldn't doing what is right be by moral standards rather than R or D?
I ask this respectfully I just don't understand how any Christian could
be a Democrat.

 

[rtm3039]

I am curious what was to not like about the last four years.
Democrats are pro-abortion, homosexuality, anti-gun, and anti-free speech.
Wouldn't doing what is right be by moral standards rather than R or D?
I ask this respectfully I just don't understand how any Christian could
be a Democrat.

Well, two things: One, I am not a democrat. Two, I make it a habit not to discuss politics.

Note: See, this is how you avoid a confrontation and clash of opinions.....

 

[Nazarene Servant]

Well, two things: One, I am not a democrat. Two, I make it a habit not to discuss politics.

Note: See, this is how you avoid a confrontation and clash of opinions.....

I need to make that my habit as well.
I still have a long way to go.

 

[Garee]

God bless you and good morning, Garee;

I read your post, carefully, and am trying to connect this either to Tithes vs Giving or what I wrote.

It was shorter this time, and will re-read it again.

Thank you, brother, for offering.

God bless you always.

Sorry, today I see tithes as giving of the whole offering (all one thing ) not tithe vs giving .

Christ in us working to both will and empower us to do the whole work. In that way it points to the better things that accompany salvation the promise he will not forget the good works offered towards his name as two walking together in agreement. Hebrew 6

The Holy Spirit accrediting us with a tenth of called little faith in another verse. That little faith that must increase would seem to rpresent the tithe (10%) ten representing the whole in many parables.

The phrase little faith is used 5 times that way in the new testement it is alway given with the increse coming from Christ We must decrease .

The widowed un married woman in mark 12 is used to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ she the church gave her all (10th ) yoked with Christ the just the 100% justifier

Mark 12: 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

 

[bobinfaith]

Sorry, today I see tithes as giving of the whole offering (all one thing ) not tithe vs giving. Christ in us working to both will and empower us to do the whole work. In that way it points to the better things that accompany salvation the promise he will not forget the good works offered towards his name as two walking together in agreement. Hebrew 6 The Holy Spirit accrediting us with a tenth of called little faith in another verse. That little faith that must increase would seem to rpresent the tithe (10%) ten representing the whole in many parables. The phrase little faith is used 5 times that way in the new testement it is alway given with the increse coming from Christ We must decrease . The widowed un married woman in mark 12 is used to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ she the church gave her all (10th ) yoked with Christ the just the 100% justifier Mark 12: 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Hello Garee;

There is a difference between "Tithes," or "tenth" from the Old Testament in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, vs Giving, or Offering in the New Testament in Mark 12, Luke, 2 Corinthians.

In the context of Mark 12:42 do you believe the widow fulfilled her whole offering? How do you reconcile this to the lesson Jesus was teaching?

In your own words, please help me understand your teaching of the tithe in the Old Testament and how this distinguishes from our giving/offerings in the New Testament.

In our fellowship which is my motive, please help me understand, Garee.

God bless you, brother, and thank you.

 

[Major]

(scratching head) I still don't understand. How is it speaking against the government when, for example, ministers like Dr. D. James Kennedy addressed the issues of culture and candidates in relation to morality? You have piqued my interest.

MM

Sorry to confuse you. Speaking against government was probably not the best wording. Speaking against Politicians who do not make moral choices would be better said.

In other words, a politician who supports abortion should be called out and his stance condemned. A president for example who commits' adultery's should be called out for his lack of morality.

I supported everything that Dr. Kennedy tried to do!

Their is a law that prohibits tax-exempt charitable organizations such as churches from participating directly or indirectly in any political campaign to support or oppose a candidate. If the IRS determines that a group has violated the law, it can revoke its tax-exempt status.

The law is called the Johnson Amendment after former President Lyndon Johnson, who introduced it in 1954 when he was a Democratic senator from Texas. Johnson was upset because a few nonprofit groups attacked him as a communist in a Senate campaign.

 

[Major]

From what has been shared here, giving can be fraught with all kinds of decisively lucid warning bells and whistles that say to keep thy wallet in thy pocket....

I've encountered people on occasion who thought that we should give blindly, as Jesus would allegedly have done.

When I asked about giving with integrity and discernment, they countered with the idea that it may be an angel playing the part of a junkie or drunkard just to see if I truly have the spirit of giving. To that I said that all mankind and angels alike are charged with the requirement to not give even the appearance of evil, and if an angel is going to present themselves in a manner that would give us reason to withhold in order to avoid becoming enablers, that angel himself lacks discernment, not I for not giving to them what may be the contributing means to ending the life of a drunk or junkie.

MM

Correct!

Here in a nutshell MM is the problem. Most all churches I know of has a Deacons Benevolent fund which the church members give to monthly.

It is intended to help those in the community and church itself who may have a need such as food, or medicine or a Doctor visit.
That is what people who give to such a fund want it to be used for.

However, when someone shows up at the front door and says that they are on their way to New York from Miami and they ran out of gas, and we as a church hand over $50.00 to them.......are we in fact doing a "Benevolent" fund function. Are we as a church being "Good Stewarts:" of the money given for a purpose that funding a trip to New York for any purpose????

We have learned that there are very un-scrupulous people in the world today who do nothing but go from church to church asking for money.

Each situation should be investigated before money is given so that the cause is just because if it is not, then then who give to such a cause will stop giving to it as it is not a valid issue.