to be baptized unto Christ's death

I wasn't posting to harp at you Mike, and I agree with most of what you said. I'm just saying there are sick, poor, starving people in this world, and we should concentrate more on others need than our own wants. Sure, I go to the doctor, and I thank God he gave us doctors. Yet I will not tell a poor, sick, believer that he's broke and suffering because he doesn't have enough faith. Look at David - he prayed all night that his child wouldn't die, yet he was to die. Paul even said they were the dregs, they were looking for someone to share some food. I don't think Paul, who prayed three times the thorn in the flesh would leave, and God told him 'My grace is sufficient,' would have said it wasn't God's will for him to receive the thorn in the flesh.

Amen. It is an uniformed Christian who believes that all lack of healing is from lack of faith. Jesus went some places and healed all. Yet He went to the pool of Bethesda out of everyone there He healed one.
Saying that Paul was used to heal but couldn't heal his disciple becuase they did not have faith would be a complete stretch of the truth.:eek:
BTW- the Old Testament had quite a few healings. Same God- different covnenant. They looked forward to the provision of the cross, we look back at the provision of the cross.
 
I don't suppose any one read my post on it very carefully:rolleyes:
I admit i skimmed some of it.:p
As Christians we need scriptures before we just believe what everyone tells us. Scriptures!!!!
Exactly what I was trying to tell you friend.
I never said healing is automatic, just like being fully grown and mature in Christ is not automatic.

The problem is that there is a doctrine that God picks and chooses who gets healed or protected, ETC............
God is quite soviergn and that is quite scriptural.
So, we can walk in the natural and ignore the ministry of Jesus (Head of the Church.) and see all the good Christians that died and all the health issues we have had, then make an assumption based on that.

Not wanting to debate this as it would make a terrific long post, I'll just examine a few.

Boanerges gave some scripture. So we will start there. These are common scriptures used to prove it is not God's Will that everyone be healed.

(2 Tim 4:20) Paul left Trophimus sick!!!

Paul and the rest of the apostles were not the healer. They were used by God to get people healed, but God was the healer and performed the Word with signs following.
So God did not choose to heal him or did the disciple (according to you) lack faith? You seem to be picking and choosing. We know that Christ healed but He did not alweays heal everyone. (Joh 5:1-9)
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

There are some doctrines that claim our (Force of Faith) causes things to happen, but no scripture for that. Faith is the ability to believe God past what physical circumstances dictate. Remember Peter walking on water looking at the waves and wind?
Trophimus was sick, He must not have been feeling well and not all healing is instant!!! I think that is were the confusion comes from.
That is an assumption with no proof- a poor basis for doctrine
Jesus said lay hands on the sick and they shall RECOVER....not instantly healed all the time. Same in James, The Lord shall Raise them up. (James 5:15) It is not spectacular most of the time.
Faith was always involved though......................Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Act 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

The apostles did not have special healing powers from God, and God did not favor them anymore than he does you or I. Peter said this at the Gate where the lame man was healed.
Could be yes or no- there is a gift of healing:
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

I am sure Trophimus was fine after he rested.

Again- hopefully true but defintely no evidence.

In the Old testament there was not much healing, but more of a obey God and sickness won't come type of thing. Jesus came and redeemed us from the Curse or punishment for disobedience to the Word of God. (Gal 3:13)


Luk 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.


Jesus healed all that were sick and oppressed of the devil. He has never changed in his Will or power. (Acts 10:38)
Sometimes He ehaled one as per the scripture I posted earlier in this thread.
I left you a private e-mail on the others.
Thanks for that I read your opinion and responded.

willing_servant:
Glory to God Brother......... You don't THINK it's the truth? I gave scripture and could have given lots more. I just want my Brothers and Sisters to Have the victory in something that Jesus Bought and paid for.




Well, Glory!!! your mom gets to be with Jesus... We will see her soon enough :)

A lot of times it's not a matter of faith, but what you know to be true. God's people are destroyed for lack of Knowledge (Hose 4:6) The devil does not play fair and will take what he can if you allow it. That's Why in Peter we are told to be diligent against our adversary the Devil that tries to roar like a lion seeking who he may devour. Not everyone can be taken down by him. As for enough faith? The Head of our Church said several times that the persons faith made them whole or he has not seen so great faith. Even Peter walking on the Water and begin to sink Jesus told him he had little faith
I never said these things, Jesus did.




Well, no......... Disobedience or sin produce death, that's scripture and walking in the devils territory (Give no place to the devil.) can cause you to go through things God never intended. God is not punishing anyone today, or judging anyone

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

As Christians we have to judge ourselves as we have a Lord now, or we are going to be Judged. That does not mean it's over, but we can miss out on some things the Lord had for us.

Being a good Christian does not insure health, and there is no scripture that supports that. Some of the best Christians die young. Jesus said it was faith that made you whole, not being good. I'll explain an example of using faith in the end of this.



I would be very careful about DREAMS, Satan can come as an angel of light and if were not strong in the Word, we can be decieved. The thief came to kill and to steal and destroy, not God. (John 10:10) There is not one Scripture that God makes anyone suffer, Jesus never made anyone suffer or even told anyone it was the will of God they suffer. He healed all!!!

There is no scripture that shows we suffer physically or mentaly for Jesus or God. We were not given the spirit of fear but of peace, power and SOUND MIND.

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
This is as close as your going to get for a scripture, nothing about physical suffering or mental suffering, you have to add that. Lets look a the full Greek.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

1Pe 4:19 Therefore, those who are ill-treated and suffer in accordance with God's will must do right and commit their souls [in charge as a deposit] to the One Who created [them] and will never fail [them].

We are promised to be mistreated by those that do not like Christians, at times it may not seem fair, but must be strong and keep a good attitude about it.


Not one scripture for God inflicting pain on his Children. The best case you can make is the book of Job, but God had nothing to do with that also. It would take to long to explain.



This prophecy was know to be fulfilled because of Physical healing!!! Read above again the scriptures I gave. If God's Word compared it to Physical healing then good enough for me.

Faith................... Example......... I am sick.......

First you have what you say.... Mark 11:23
...........and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Jesus said it, so it's good enough for me.

Faith agree's with God, and there is more than enough evidence to prove that it is his will that we don't stay sick.
Faith never accecpts sickness or sides with it. Doing so means your siding with the one that kills, steals and destorys.
Faith never prays one way then says something else days latter.

"God please heal me."
"I will probley have to deal with this the rest of my life."

Faith comes from the Word of God and produced in your heart. Out of the abundance of you heart your mouth is going to speak. If your filled with fear and no hope of getting well, then that is what your going to speak and nothing changes.
God can fix something overnight, but it would be better to meditate in the word day and night until the things Jesus said about healing and all the examples of healing in the Word become so strong that you could not believe or accecpt another outcome.

Could someone convince you that your not going to heaven? NO (Hope not)
you are saved though grace by faith.

Healing can be the same way if you will accecpt that God wants you healed just like he wanted you saved.

I have seen lots of folks get healed, some don't. I have laid hands on people and they have been healed instantly, some we keep bringing them the Word and months latter it dawns on them that they are truly healed.

Things happen in the realm of the spirit first that effect this physical World. It has to change there first and in your own mind to recieve what God said.

God's Will to heal............ explains it a lot better than I could here and is free..........

More Life Now - Service Archives

I gave scriptural evidence in what I said is correct. If you don't believe me, at least don't discount the scriptures and miss Something that may be important to you or save you life. God puts people in our paths in forums like this, and don't find out latter that you may have missed out.
To take your views from the majority of scripture and ignore the rest is error. They are all true or none is. This thought can keep you from much error.
Jeus Is Lord.
Got to go I will post more later.:)
 
The interesting thing here is that we all believe Jesus heals. :)
1Pe 4:19 WhereforeG5620 let(G2532) them that sufferG3958 accordingG2596 to theG3588 willG2307 of GodG2316 commit the keeping ofG3908 theirG1438 soulsG5590 to him inG1722 well doing,G16 asG5613 unto a faithfulG4103 Creator.G2939
G3958- suffer
πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
paschō pathō penthō
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.


As for you paraphrased bible it's translation is in the extreme minority my friend.:
1Pe 4:19

(ASV) Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing unto a faithful Creator.

(BBE) For this reason let those who by the purpose of God undergo punishment, keep on in well-doing and put their souls into the safe hands of their Maker.

(Bishops) Wherefore, let them that are troubled accordyng to the wyll of God, commit their soules to him with well doyng, as vnto a faythfull creatour.

(CEV) If you suffer for obeying God, you must have complete faith in your faithful Creator and keep on doing right.

(Darby) Wherefore also let them who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing to a faithful Creator.


(DRB) Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

(EMTV) Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

(ESV) Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

(Geneva) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God, commit their soules to him in well doing, as vnto a faithfull Creator.

(GNB) So then, those who suffer because it is God's will for them, should by their good actions trust themselves completely to their Creator, who always keeps his promise.

(GNT) ὥστε καὶ οἱ πάσχοντες κατὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατιθέσθωσαν τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν ἐν ἀγαθοποιΐᾳ.

(GNT-BYZ+) ωστεG5620 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM πασχοντεςG3958 V-PAP-NPM καταG2596 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN θελημαG2307 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM ωςG5613 ADV πιστωG4103 A-DSM κτιστηG2939 N-DSM παρατιθεσθωσανG3908 V-PPM-3P ταςG3588 T-APF ψυχαςG5590 N-APF αυτωνG846 P-GPM ενG1722 PREP αγαθοποιιαG16 N-DSF

(GNT-TR) ωστε και οι πασχοντες κατα το θελημα του θεου ως πιστω κτιστη παρατιθεσθωσαν τας ψυχας εαυτων εν αγαθοποιια

(GNT-TR+) ωστεG5620 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM πασχοντεςG3958 V-PAP-NPM καταG2596 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN θελημαG2307 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM ωςG5613 ADV πιστωG4103 A-DSM κτιστηG2939 N-DSM παρατιθεσθωσανG3908 V-PPM-3P ταςG3588 T-APF ψυχαςG5590 N-APF εαυτωνG1438 F-3GPM ενG1722 PREP αγαθοποιιαG16 N-DSF

(GNT-WH+) ωστεG5620 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM πασχοντεςG3958 V-PAP-NPM καταG2596 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN θελημαG2307 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM πιστωG4103 A-DSM κτιστηG2939 N-DSM παρατιθεσθωσανG3908 V-PPM-3P ταςG3588 T-APF ψυχαςG5590 N-APF | | αυτωνG846 P-GPM | ενG1722 PREP αγαθοποιιαG16 N-DSF

(GW) Those who suffer because that is God's will for them must entrust themselves to a faithful creator and continue to do what is good.

(HNT) לכן גם־המענים כרצון אלהים יפקידו את־נפשתיהם ביד אלהים הברא הנאמן ויוסיפו לעשות הטוב׃

(HOT)

(HOT+)

(ISV) So then, those who suffer according to God's will should entrust their souls to a faithful Creator and continue to do what is good.

(JPS)

(KJV) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

(KJV+) WhereforeG5620 let(G2532) them that sufferG3958 accordingG2596 to theG3588 willG2307 of GodG2316 commit the keeping ofG3908 theirG1438 soulsG5590 to him inG1722 well doing,G16 asG5613 unto a faithfulG4103 Creator.G2939

(KJV-1611) Wherfore, let them that suffer according to the will of God, commit the keeping of their soules to him in well doing, as vnto a faithfull Creator.

(KJVA) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

(KJVR) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

(LXX)

(MKJV) Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing, as to a faithful Creator.

(Murdock) Wherefore, let them who suffer according to the pleasure of God, commend their souls to him in well doing, as to a faithful Creator.

(RV) Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well–doing unto a faithful Creator.

(Vulgate) itaque et hii qui patiuntur secundum voluntatem Dei fideli creatori commendant animas suas in benefactis

(Webster) Wherefore, let them that suffer according to the will of God, commit the keeping of their souls to him in well-doing, as to a faithful Creator.

(WNT) Therefore also, let those who are suffering in accordance with the will of God entrust their souls in well-doing to a faithful Creator.

(YLT) so that also those suffering according to the will of god, as to a stedfast Creator, let them commit their own souls in good doing.


 
Ok, Boanerges and Dusty......................

Now the question...............

If God has a sense of humor.........

And I was a large man...... (Fat, big as a house, hippo size.)

Would my new body, (Being the old one resurrected from the grave)

Be as big as a house??

Just a thought, to get on Slime fast quick......... just in case.

After all, I don't want to be told that they don't have a white robe in my size.

Jesus Is Lord.


I better start eating more fish and veg and less bacon and chips:D


God bless
 
Well, to answer this challenge I must get a bit personal.

We have that scripture about us finding healing in Jesus' stripes. Let me tell you how I see them ... I think it's about love. Finding true, honest, deep, gracious, and tender yet strong love. It's also about knowing who Jesus is, a very glorious person of immense dignity and majesty. The cross means that Jesus who only deserved infinite majesty and dignity, stepped right into our midst. And to be amongst us humans means to be amongst those who have forgotten about God chasing after pleasures of life instead or even pursuing gruesome sins in ignorance and wickedness. It is this enmity in our soul, this festering mistrust and flight from God, which the cross heals.

I am no exception. I was an evangelical atheist (= I spread atheism, or rather my own version of agnosticism) - because I could not be sure of God loving me. I believed in some mystical love of God in sunrises and sunsets, I believed we had a right to be loved, but in truth this was swept away quickly by my sufferings. It's easy to believe in a permisse love making you possible everything as long as you stay healthy. When you get really sick you need something else. You need love that reaches your heart. You need love that draws you out of the mud. You need someone who makes his hands dirty and comes into the mess you have created.

The cross does just that. God is making His hands dirty. Like it says in Isaiah, the cross is a sign. It's about victory promised and sealed with Jesus' sacrifice. And like Jesus going through His torture, we too have to accept the suffering that comes along with being christian.

The wound that is healed is our previous old enmity with God. Most of us are happy with that enmity. Many of us even try to increase it to feel better about themselves. And it even feels good. I too have for many years simply tried to find flaws in theology, in the bible, in christian doctrine, to make myself feel good about not believing, about not going to my loving Father, about rejecting Him.

But when I look at the cross, I become sincere. The cross becomes a place of peace. The cross is where I trust again in this Jesus.

God became man, can you understand that? And I don't mean as in comprehending a problem and then filing it away, which is what unbelievers want to do. Jesus is God becoming man, while still remaining God. Jesus steps right into our midst to declare His will and to provide us with what we need. The thing about Jesus and us which are His, is that God's will is fulfilled perfectly while our needs are met. And what we need is that Jesus is both God and human.

It's the christmas season, brothers. It's the season where God becomes man. Meditate on that, it's a deep deep mystery which holds great comfort for us struggling men. Jesus is Immanuel - "God with us".

Sorry, Mike, but I believe that humanity simply has to cope with illnesses until the whole system of things is changed, until God gives us back longevity. There is no other way to keep us from becoming totally conceited. It's the same reason why I think God allows disasters. We need to be confronted, we need to be humbled, we need to be shown our limits. Not many people are humble enough to go to God for everything when their lives run clear without problems.

Yes, I strongly agree with you that we must be open to God's offer of healing. But please see the priority of which healing must be there, and which healing needn't be there. The healing of our soul is essential, the healing of our body is an icing on the cake, but not an essential.

Suffering = patient and meek acceptance. Once you acquire that even an illness will disturb you that much. Look at how most faithful women do it who are naturally more acquainted with pain than men.

I want to repeat, an afflicted person can and should pray for healing. But in the same time it's more important that God becomes their Immanuel, that God is with them, particularly when they suffer.

Oh, and be a bit realistic. Don't inspire such vast hope for healing in people, which will only terrorize them if the illness persists. We humans can cope with most illnesses, because we can handle them with our souls which in turn need to be under the loving and caring influence of God. But it's not good to promise people a healing which, if it doesn't arrive, becomes guilt and feeling like a terrible sinner.
 
Healing!!!

Boanerges:

The interesting thing here is that we all believe Jesus heals.
Praise God Brother!!!!

1Pe 4:19 Well, I use the KJV, but the context of Peter was suffering for doing dumb things or suffering persecution from others. I used the Amplified as it seem to fit he context. We still have no passage that states suffer is sickness or disease as that was under the curse Jesus Redeemed us from.

For some reason I can't get your response in any browser. I can get back what I wrote though.. I'll try again latter as I end up with a blank page.

The inward faith or force of faith doctrine is false Doctrine, Used by some Word of faith groups and Christian science.

Trophimus does not prove or disprove God's Will on healing. I gave two scriptures that healing is not always instant.

The Gifts of Healing (Some believe have been done away with.) is a distributed to every man as the Spirit WILLS to profit them. The Healing anointing was on the apostles, but to say they were always anointed with it to use at their will would be stretching things. Jesus was anointed without measure.........Which we all are, but that gift has to be operating.

Amen. It is an uniformed Christian who believes that all lack of healing is from lack of faith. Jesus went some places and healed all. Yet He went to the pool of Bethesda out of everyone there He healed one.

I heard if it was his will to heal he would have healed all of them from some other pastor (Pool of Bethesda). I went to God with this one. The Lord simply told me that if it was not his will to heal then who sent the angel?



Lack of faith is not the only reason Healing does not come. I got in a fight with my Brother in Christ, I was watching wrestling (WWF) and he felt the need to tell me that I was not setting a good example to those around me. (Probley so.) I told him to mind his own business and we stoped fellowshiping and talking.

A week latter a virus came into our dorm room (I was in the Big house) and out of 98 men 56 ended up in the hospital and our wing was quarentined.
I also got really sick, but stood up in faith and rebuked devils. I was not going to side with this sickness.

TWO more weeks passed and I was not feeling better, but it had gotten to the point I did not feel like getting out of bed.

I gave up and asked God, why I was not healed yet. (Something I don't like to do as I know Healing is already there, but needed wisdom.)

The Lord spoke to me. He said go tell my brother I love him.

I Told God that if my brother says sorry to me I will tell him.

another half week passed............. really sick.
I came out to get a drink at the fountain and saw my brother. I just walked over to him and told him sorry and that I loved him. We cried and talked and I got up to drag myself to bed. On the way to my bed I felt the power of the anointing of God touch me from my head all the way down to my feet. I was healed instantly and just had a scratchy throat.

There are reasons all do not recieve healing, Obiedience is one of them and lack of knowledge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Least in the Kingdom:

I know your not harping on me brother. I agree with everything you just said in the last two post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, The issue is not God's ability to heal, I can see that.
The issue is will he do it for me?
I have seen some awesome stuff and have been preaching the will of God to heal with amazing results. Seeing is not sound doctrine though, but scripture is.

So, I am just asking you brothers to look more closely at what the Word says. Jesus never changed, He said the Works he does we shall do also, nothing about healing being done away with. could it be that we just need to side with the word and refuse sickness? could it really be God's will to heal all that will just side with him and refuse the destoryer?

That's all I am asking everyone to look at. If there can be something learned and a willingnes to lay aside doctrine, examining the scriptures you might find that you have victory!!!

There is no scripture that God wants us sick. No scripture that we can not be healed. Jesus had a large ministry of Healing the sick, should we not follow the head of the Chruch that is the same today, yesterday and tomorow?

I know it's hard to think that people are sick for lack of faith, but Jesus seemed to think faith was important. The women with the issue of blood? The centurion that needed his servant healed? Peter walking on water.
There is something here to at least look into.

God bless you Brothers.. thank you for all the input..

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Boanerges:

Praise God Brother!!!!

1Pe 4:19 Well, I use the KJV, but the context of Peter was suffering for doing dumb things or suffering persecution from others. I used the Amplified as it seem to fit he context. We still have no passage that states suffer is sickness or disease as that was under the curse Jesus Redeemed us from.
The context was as is the will of God
For some reason I can't get your response in any browser. I can get back what I wrote though.. I'll try again latter as I end up with a blank page.
The site was going through upgrades last night so we all had issues- sorry for that.
The inward faith or force of faith doctrine is false Doctrine, Used by some Word of faith groups and Christian science.

Trophimus does not prove or disprove God's Will on healing. I gave two scriptures that healing is not always instant.

The Gifts of Healing (Some believe have been done away with.) is a distributed to every man as the Spirit WILLS to profit them. The Healing anointing was on the apostles, but to say they were always anointed with it to use at their will would be stretching things. Jesus was anointed without measure.........Which we all are, but that gift has to be operating.
Well scripturally they will be operating until the entire Church reaches the fulness of maturity unto the measure of the stature of Christ. Since that has not yet happens(LOL) then the nay sayers opinion holds no sway against the Word of God:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


I heard if it was his will to heal he would have healed all of them from some other pastor (Pool of Bethesda). I went to God with this one. The Lord simply told me that if it was not his will to heal then who sent the angel?

Yes He sent the angel yet only 1 was healed each time:
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

Lack of faith is not the only reason Healing does not come. I got in a fight with my Brother in Christ, I was watching wrestling (WWF) and he felt the need to tell me that I was not setting a good example to those around me. (Probley so.) I told him to mind his own business and we stoped fellowshiping and talking.

A week latter a virus came into our dorm room (I was in the Big house) and out of 98 men 56 ended up in the hospital and our wing was quarentined.
I also got really sick, but stood up in faith and rebuked devils. I was not going to side with this sickness.

TWO more weeks passed and I was not feeling better, but it had gotten to the point I did not feel like getting out of bed.

I gave up and asked God, why I was not healed yet. (Something I don't like to do as I know Healing is already there, but needed wisdom.)

The Lord spoke to me. He said go tell my brother I love him.

I Told God that if my brother says sorry to me I will tell him.

another half week passed............. really sick.
I came out to get a drink at the fountain and saw my brother. I just walked over to him and told him sorry and that I loved him. We cried and talked and I got up to drag myself to bed. On the way to my bed I felt the power of the anointing of God touch me from my head all the way down to my feet. I was healed instantly and just had a scratchy throat.
Been there , done that, did not like it. I am learning to forgive faster- this practice avoids many trials and afflictions. It is a good Father who disciplines His son.
There are reasons all do not recieve healing, Obiedience is one of them and lack of knowledge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Least in the Kingdom:

I know your not harping on me brother. I agree with everything you just said in the last two post.

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Ok, The issue is not God's ability to heal, I can see that.
The issue is will he do it for me?
I have seen some awesome stuff and have been preaching the will of God to heal with amazing results. Seeing is not sound doctrine though, but scripture is.

So, I am just asking you brothers to look more closely at what the Word says. Jesus never changed, He said the Works he does we shall do also, nothing about healing being done away with.
Agreed as long as we do not have to ignore some scipure to support our doctrines. Like everything in the Word there is a harmony and a balance on these things- if you choose to ignore the few to prove the many then your doctrine is flawed.
could it be that we just need to side with the word and refuse sickness?
No, not always. Sometimes standing in faith see deliverance and sometimes we simply get sick. To ignore that is a state of denial. This whole creation groans and travails awaiting it's redemption from the curse of sin and death.
could it really be God's will to heal all that will just side with him and refuse the destoryer?

That's all I am asking everyone to look at. If there can be something learned and a willingnes to lay aside doctrine, examining the scriptures you might find that you have victory!!!
I indeed have victory in Christ yet this is also a promise to us:
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


One should note in these following verses that though the outcome is different for those who obey and those who choose not to the storms will come regardless:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
There is no scripture that God wants us sick. No scripture that we can not be healed. Jesus had a large ministry of Healing the sick, should we not follow the head of the Chruch that is the same today, yesterday and tomorow?

I know it's hard to think that people are sick for lack of faith, but Jesus seemed to think faith was important. The women with the issue of blood? The centurion that needed his servant healed? Peter walking on water.
There is something here to at least look into.

God bless you Brothers.. thank you for all the input..

Jesus Is Lord.
All death, sickness and corruption entered this world through one man's disobediance(Rom 5:12). Does God heal? Yes. Does God respond to faith? Yes. Did He heal everyone, everywhere? No. We will not entirely escape death, sickness and disease until we receive our ressurection bodies and put of this corrupt flesh ( 1Co 15:50-55).
If I may share one of my personal experiences- I spent some time in an inner city ministry were the miraculous was quite the norm. Our head Pastor (or Preacher Man as the local kids called him) was used of God as a vessel for miracles and healings on almost a daily basis. Watching him struggle with the flu was a sad sight and yet when his heath was restored he went right back to being used to heal others.


1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

 
Brothers!!!

I hope that someone else who take the time to read our post is able to learn as there are lots of Great scriptures we used, I also feel that people can get hope from every response that was given and need something to compare to.

Willing_Servant: God bless you, God is Love and thank you for explaining some things that you have gone through.

Sorry, Mike, but I believe that humanity simply has to cope with illnesses until the whole system of things is changed

Amen Brother, the last enemy to be done away with is Death!!! We have a body that is subject to age and the curse that sin brought on this earth. You had some awesome revelation in your post about Jesus/man/God.

I know it's the will of God that all men come to repentance, but that does not mean we can not have everything that was promised to us. Seeking healing or prosperity though the Word of God should be as important as spiritual growth. There is a complete growth in the Things of God that Brings him glory. My thought is that it's the good things of God that is shown in our life that draws people to him.

Least in the Kingdom and Willing_Servant:

Truely the "name it and claim it" 'ministry' is deceiving many.

Oh, and be a bit realistic. Don't inspire such vast hope for healing in people....

Jesus said you have what you say. (Mark 11:23) I could list a lot of others scriptures that say the same. I think the point is that this has been taught wrongly and not understood. This is not a great promise but a spiritual law, that your mouth will steer the course of your life.

"I will have 100 oil wells by tomorrow!!!"

Do you really believe that? Have you been faithful in a little so that God can give you more? Have you sown any oil wells to anyone? Is it God's plan for you to have those oil wells? Has your faith ever operated on that level before?
The list goes on, and causes confusion. It would be best to start out not confessing those things that you do not want in your life.

"Little Johny, I told you to look both ways before crossing the street, you could be hit and killed by a car."

"Little Johny, I told you to look both ways before crossing the street, you need to mind me and respect others so they don't slam on their brakes and avoid you."

You have spoken two possible outcomes................................ both have yet to come to pass. However this scripture is firmly rooted in you.
the first is a lie from the thief that came to kill, steal and destroy. The other is eternally recorded as the truth.

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

and

Hope maketh not ashamed. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Now abideth these 3, faith, hope and charity (Love)
If you look at the ministry of Jesus, he never considered sin to be a factor in someone not recieving healing. Telling the will of God about healing can be done without a list of what their faults may be. No condemnation!!!

--------------------------------------

God is Love, and that's Why I am a firm believer in healing available for us today. Paul said he sees through a glass Darkly, and that makes me wonder how much do I really know?
Boanerges:

Yes He sent the angel yet only 1 was healed each time:

Well, if you study the Whole Greek out, then you will find that the translators added verse 5:4 to make the passage more clear and is omitted in some bibles as it is not in the Greek that way. The Pool was large enough for several people to enter in but we don't even really know if they waited for the water to be troubled or an Angel was involved as that was part of the added text. I believe that Verse 5:4 should be there as directed by God.

Sometimes standing in faith see deliverance and sometimes we simply get sick. To ignore that is a state of denial. This whole creation groans and travails awaiting it's redemption from the curse of sin and death.

I am not denying that we can't get sick, I deny the sickness to take it's toll and will not lay around in agreement with it.
What is the whole creation waiting for?

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The world is waiting for us to grow up as you mentioned in Eph and manifest the power of God in our lives. A son is someone that is grown in the Lord and not still a child.

This Blessed me..........

Watching him struggle with the flu was a sad sight and yet when his heath was restored he went right back to being used to heal others.
Amen Brother, I have laid hands on the sick in the name of Jesus and have seen surprising results. For some reason I started to cough up blood though and healing was not instant but the condition just became worse.
There is a connection between those new in the Word and those that are more mature. I find it very easy to get someone new to receive healing than someone that has been in church for a long time.

whom more is given more is required. Do I believe what I preach?
Do I still walk by sight and not faith?

It took 6 months of coughing blood, but I did not move and took my stand. The last I filled our bathroom sink with blood and my wife told me to go to the Doctor. I got upset about it and told the devil that I can cough blood until I am 120 but I will still be healthy and you can not touch me, I will not be moved or concerned by this.
That was the last day I coughed blood, this was about six years ago.

Why did it take so long?
I latter learned that as someone that is willing to do the Will of God, then we must be strong in the Lord and the power of his might. We can not be moved by anything, and time..................patience is a very important fruit though our flesh does not like the concept.

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.



More.......

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Case study. The will of the Lord on Healing.

Bible Location:

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


This women was a daughter of Abraham, and the Lord recognized that. This is the only other person outside the man at the pool he went up to, as the others came to him.

He has a very strong opinion about this women and her physical condition, so strong in fact that he was willing to upset the religious types at the time to get over to her with something that belonged to her.

Jesus only spoke the will of the Father.
Jesus only did what he saw his Father do.
His will has never changed, the Word will never change.
He is head of the church and we should try to follow his examples and think like he does.

This women was a daughter of Abraham!!! She had no choice to be healed once Jesus came to her.
Jesus was a man (Filled with God) walking on legs and could only be at one place at a time and deal with only groups of people at a time. That is why he said it was better that he go, so that the Holy Ghost could come and we would not have to wait in line to get to Him.

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

What did God tell Abraham!!!.

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This covenant never ended..............................

This is why Jesus was upholding that Covenant God made to Abraham, and healed that women, there was no choice because of the covenant God had made. She was the seed (Daughter) of Abraham!!!

God will never break that covenant.

We see the will of God in action for the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Covenant's are a two way street, we need to know what belongs to us before we can even think to lay hold of something we don't even know about. Satan has hide from us what really is ours today.
The women was not healed for 18 years, but once the truth and light showed up (Jesus) That covenant become known and the promise took effect................

There is not one scripture that says the covenant has been done away with or does not extend to physical healing!!!
Lets not forget the prosperity that came with Abraham!!!



Please read my post above first though.......

Jesus Is Lord.
 
I often call myself an optimist who keeps one foot on the ground but I stand firmly rooted and grounded on His Word. I call it lifeology instead of theology because the Word of God is meant to be lived out. THe more the enemy comes against me the closer I am drawn to my Lord so I cannot loose. We may not agree with everything doctrinally but I have much love for you in Christ my friend.
 
Now back to the Greek. It is understood that there are some small variations between manuscripts that is were comparing different versions come in handy. These text were translated by men of God who read and wrote Greek like we read a newspaper.:)
Joh 5:4 ForG1063 an angelG32 went downG2597 at a certain seasonG2596 G2540 intoG1722 theG3588 pool,G2861 andG2532 troubledG5015 theG3588 water:G5204 whosoever thenG3767 firstG4413 afterG3326 theG3588 troublingG5016 of theG3588 waterG5204 stepped inG1684 was madeG1096 wholeG5199 of whatsoeverG3739 G1221 diseaseG3553 he had.G2722
Joh 5:4 ForG1063 an angelG32 went downG2597 at a certain seasonG2596 G2540 intoG1722 theG3588 pool,G2861 andG2532 troubledG5015 theG3588 water:G5204 whosoever thenG3767 firstG4413 afterG3326 theG3588 troublingG5016 of theG3588 waterG5204 stepped inG1684 was madeG1096 wholeG5199 of whatsoeverG3739 G1221 diseaseG3553 he had.G2722



From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the Bible:
First

A. Adjective.
protos (G4413), the superlative degree of pro, "before," is used (I) "of time or place," (a) as a noun, e.g., Luk_14:18; Rev_1:17; opposite to "the last," in the neuter plural, Mat_12:45; Luk_11:26; 2Pe_2:20; in the neuter singular, opposite to "the second," Heb_10:9; in 1Co_15:3, en protois, lit., "in the first (things, or matters)" denotes "first of all"; (b) as an adjective, e.g., Mar_16:9, used with "day" understood, lit., "the first (day) of (i.e., after) the Sabbath," in which phrase the "of" is objective, not including the Sabbath, but following it (cf. B, No. 3); in Joh_20:4, Joh_20:8; Rom_10:19, e.g., equivalent to an English adverb; in Joh_1:15, lit., "first of me," i.e., "before me" (of superiority); (II) "of rank or dignity," see CHIEF. Cf. B, Nos. 3 and 4.


I love my E-Sword as I can cross compare so many versions with one mouse click: It would certainly seem that the majority of translations do indeed accept John 5:4, actually the count is 17 of the 25 versions I currently use . That being said there is some room for disagreement there:
Joh 5:4

(ASV) for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the waters stepped in was made whole, with whatsoever disease he was holden.

((Bishops) For an Angel went downe at a certayne season into the poole, and stirred the water: Whosoeuer then firste after the stirring of the water stepped in, was made whole of whatsoeuer disease he hadde.



(Darby) For an angel descended at a certain season in the pool and troubled the water. Whoever therefore first went in after the troubling of the water became well, whatever disease he laboured under.

(DRB) And an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water was made whole of whatsoever infirmity he lay under.

(EMTV) For an angel from time to time descended into the pool and stirred up the water; therefore the first one having gone in after the stirring up of the water, became well of whatever disease he was suffering.

(ESV) [for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool, and stirred the water: whoever stepped in first after the stirring of the water was healed of whatever disease he had.]

(Geneva) For an Angel went downe at a certaine season into the poole, and troubled the water: whosoeuer then first, after the stirring of the water, stepped in, was made whole of whatsoeuer disease he had.


(GNT) ἄγγελος γὰρ κατὰ καιρὸν κατέβαινεν ἐν τῇ κολυμβήθρᾳ, καὶ ἐτάρασσε τὸ ὕδωρ· ὁ οὖν πρῶτος ἐμβὰς μετὰ τὴν ταραχὴν τοῦ ὕδατος ὑγιὴς ἐγίνετο ᾧ δήποτε κατείχετο νοσήματι.

(GNT-BYZ+) αγγελοςG32 N-NSM γαρG1063 CONJ καταG2596 PREP καιρονG2540 N-ASM κατεβαινενG2597 V-IAI-3S ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κολυμβηθραG2861 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ εταρασσενG5015 V-IAI-3S τοG3588 T-ASN υδωρG5204 N-ASN οG3588 T-NSM ουνG3767 CONJ πρωτοςG4413 A-NSM-S εμβαςG1684 V-2AAP-NSM μεταG3326 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF ταραχηνG5016 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSN υδατοςG5204 N-GSN υγιηςG5199 A-NSM εγινετοG1096 V-INI-3S ωG3739 R-DSN δηποτεG1221 PRT κατειχετοG2722 V-IPI-3S νοσηματιG3553 N-DSN

(GNT-TR) αγγελος γαρ κατα καιρον κατεβαινεν εν τη κολυμβηθρα και εταρασσεν το υδωρ ο ουν πρωτος εμβας μετα την ταραχην του υδατος υγιης εγινετο ω δηποτε κατειχετο νοσηματι

(GNT-TR+) αγγελοςG32 N-NSM γαρG1063 CONJ καταG2596 PREP καιρονG2540 N-ASM κατεβαινενG2597 V-IAI-3S ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κολυμβηθραG2861 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ εταρασσενG5015 V-IAI-3S τοG3588 T-ASN υδωρG5204 N-ASN οG3588 T-NSM ουνG3767 CONJ πρωτοςG4413 A-NSM-S εμβαςG1684 V-2AAP-NSM μεταG3326 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF ταραχηνG5016 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSN υδατοςG5204 N-GSN υγιηςG5199 A-NSM εγινετοG1096 V-INI-3S ωG3739 R-DSN δηποτεG1221 PRT κατειχετοG2722 V-IPI-3S νοσηματιG3553 N-DSN



(HNT) כי מלאך ירד במועדו אל־הברכה וירעש את־מימיה והיה הירד ראשון אל־תוכה אחרי התגעשו המים הוא נרפא מכל־מחלה אשר דבקה בו)׃



(ISV) For at certain times an angel of the Lord would go down into the pool and stir up the water. And the one who stepped in first after the stirring of the water was healed of whatever disease he had.



(KJV) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

(KJV+) ForG1063 an angelG32 went downG2597 at a certain seasonG2596 G2540 intoG1722 theG3588 pool,G2861 andG2532 troubledG5015 theG3588 water:G5204 whosoever thenG3767 firstG4413 afterG3326 theG3588 troublingG5016 of theG3588 waterG5204 stepped inG1684 was madeG1096 wholeG5199 of whatsoeverG3739 G1221 diseaseG3553 he had.G2722

(KJV-1611) For an Angel went downe at a certaine season into the poole, and troubled the water: whosoeuer then first after the troubling of the water stepped in, was made whole of whatsoeuer disease he had.

(KJVA) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

(KJVR) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

(LXX)

(MKJV) For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and troubled the water. Then whoever first stepped in after the troubling of the water was made whole of whatever disease he had.

(Murdock) For an angel, from time to time, descended into the baptistery, and moved the waters; and he who first went in, after the moving of the waters, was cured of whatever disease he had.



(Webster) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and agitated the water: whoever then first after the stirring of the water stepped in, was cured of whatever disease he had.



(YLT) for a messenger at a set time was going down in the pool, and was troubling the water, the first then having gone in after the troubling of the water, became whole of whatever sickness he was held.

 
Amen

Well, I believe that John 4:5 should be in there as it is in the King James and I feel the KJV to be correct.

I have argued this before along with mark chapter 16 which is omitted from certain text.

Also the context.........Healing........

Had to be an Angel of the Lord, as Healing was recorded and Jesus was not standing around in the Water all his ministry.

There were a lot of good things from this thread and I hope that at least I made some think more about going after healing and getting victory, even if the belief system is a little different.

I also use E-Sword, though I have a 400.00 or so dollar Biblesoft program laying around uninstalled (new version- PC Study Bible) It did not even compare to e-sword in speed and how easy it was to look up the Greek and Hebrew without going though a couple more steps.
Most of it is filled with other people's Ideas of what they think the bible says (Commentary) So I am not one for looking at the foot notes. I was very disappointed with it.

I love all you Brothers, and see you all in other threads!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Today I sat down and thought of what you wrote, Mike, and I found that I didn't know what anointing means. Then suddenly the window opened, by a strong wind, and I knew this was a little sign from God that meant, to be anointed means to be set free. So yes, sometimes God heals our sicknesses in order to set us free - but certainly not always. I don't think we should elevate gifts above giver. And sometimes an illness doesn't mean that we are not free. There are so many disableds on the world, think of amputees and such - there is no reason when normal diseases are healed that God should not heal amputees also. But He doesn't. So ok, be thankful for that healing, Mike, but let's not forget that everything has a purpose and a meaning. Jesus just was very kind to you, but God is the ultimate free one besides being so loving, so don't claim health as your everlasting right - grace and mercy are gifts and not our rights with God. The only right we have is that we can go to God anytime, no one shall hinder us from that. But eventually, what God does, 99% of the time it is different from what we expect, because the Lord has His own head and will, and He is very sovereign in all that He does and knows better than you or me.

What you say about not accepting illness, would you say that to someone with disability? Is it really so bad to have some illness? What matters is that we are largely free of true pain and can have life, and I think this life thing is what God cares about, that we pursue life and not death.
 
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