To Touch A Holy Thing.

[Chopper]

I went to the site that Fish_of_Faith posted. IMO, folks similar to this like to start arguments and dissension within the ranks of Christian. I'm not accusing the author of the site as doing that but it is very close to what I I've seen in the past.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Granted that Jesus was the Word in living form. His words became the Word of God. The disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote down what Jesus said and and did which became the "written Word of Jesus" thus being the written Word of God.

Mt. 24:35 states that, because the words that YHWH and Jesus spoke, because these words were written down comprising the Bible, those words will always be available.

It is my opinion that Re, 22:19 is ample proof that the Bible, being the Word of God must not be tampered with.

 

[Chopper]

To curb a debate, I'll not comment further, Grace and Peace to all.

 

[/]

I went to the site that Fish_of_Faith posted. IMO, folks similar to this like to start arguments and dissension within the ranks of Christian. I'm not accusing the author of the site as doing that but it is very close to what I I've seen in the past.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Granted that Jesus was the Word in living form. His words became the Word of God. The disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote down what Jesus said and and did which became the "written Word of Jesus" thus being the written Word of God.

Mt. 24:35 states that, because the words that YHWH and Jesus spoke, because these words were written down comprising the Bible, those words will always be available.

It is my opinion that Re, 22:19 is ample proof that the Bible, being the Word of God must not be tampered with.

As a minister like you, I'm inclined to agree with you on a professional basis.
However as per my previous post, let's keep it calm.

 

[Silk]

My very last post here:

Between the last book of the Old Testament and the New, some 400 years passed without scripture God breathed. By the time of Christ's ministry, the Pharissees had taken control of the religion. What is a Pharisee? A Pharisee is one who decides all things in religion, not based on God's Word but what the majority of Rabbi's decide based on their own authority - not God's. This is what happens when you decide that you know better than God what God means (see below). The pharisses of Jesus' time were no longer following scripture but were making their own traditions. It is these very same pharissee movement that are now called orthodox Jewry. If your HS filled self is given revelations contradictory to scripture, it's not the HS. If you have to twist and sculpt and string together scripture, your interpetation is big time questionable. If one cannot see the similarities between what the Israelites did and what that web link that a moderator posted as a good link is. I have run out of words to explain it.

One day, one of my rabbis sat me down to convince me of the absolute authority of the Rabbis. He began to tell me the story of Rabbi Eliezer which appears in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metsia, page 59b. Rabbi Eliezer was the greatest of the Rabbinical sages and the teacher of the legendary Rabbi Akiva. One day Rabbi Eliezer was engaged in a debate with the rest of the rabbis on some minutia of rabbinical law. Rabbi Eliezer maintained that a certain type of oven could not contract ritual uncleanness while all the other rabbis said it could.[14] The Talmud relates that "On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument" but he could not convince the other rabbis. Rabbi Eliezer became very frustrated. His rational arguments clearly proved he was right but this was not enough to convince the other rabbis to change their ruling. What was he to do? In desperation Rabbi Eliezer invoked a miracle. He shouted out, "If I am right, let the trees prove it!" All the rabbis in the academy suddenly heard a great rumble and when they looked outside they saw an entire orchard of trees inexplicably being uprooted and flying into the air. The rabbis were very impressed but they turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "We do not listen to trees." Rabbi Eliezer tried again. He shouted out: "If I am right let the river prove it!" Everyone in the academy ran outside and witnessed as the great river began to flow backwards. The rabbis were now extremely impressed but they turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "We do not listen to rivers." Rabbi Eliezer was by now steaming at the collar and shouted, "If I am right let the walls of the academy prove it." The walls of the academy immediately began to cave in. The rabbis turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said: "We do not listen to walls." Rabbi Eliezer was at his wits' end and finally shouted out, "If the law agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!" At that moment all those present in the academy heard a voice call out from heaven saying: "Why do you dispute with Rabbi Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the law agrees with him!" The rabbis were again impressed but turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "Sorry, we do not listen to Heaven." As my rabbi was telling me this story he opened to Deuteronomy 30:12 which says concerning the Torah "it is not in heaven." Of course, this phrase is part of a verse that says there is no excuse not to follow the Torah because it is not in heaven or across the sea but in our hearts and mouths. The Israelites had just heard the Torah directly from Moses and knew exactly what it meant, so there could be no excuses not to live by it. But this same verse was brought by the Rabbis as proof to Rabbi Eliezer why they should not listen to the Creator in matters of Torah. Once the Torah was given it was no longer in heaven and therefore God had no say in interpreting it. My rabbi's conclusion from all this was that the interpretations of the Rabbis even superseded a direct decree from God Himself, so who was I to question them.
Gordon, Nehemia (2009-03-13). The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus (Kindle Locations 294-295). Makor Hebrew Foundation. Kindle Edition.

 

[Francis Drake]

My very last post here:

Between the last book of the Old Testament and the New, some 400 years passed without scripture God breathed. By the time of Christ's ministry, the Pharissees had taken control of the religion. What is a Pharisee? A Pharisee is one who decides all things in religion, not based on God's Word but what the majority of Rabbi's decide based on their own authority - not God's. This is what happens when you decide that you know better than God what God means (see below). The pharisses of Jesus' time were no longer following scripture but were making their own traditions. It is these very same pharissee movement that are now called orthodox Jewry. If your HS filled self is given revelations contradictory to scripture, it's not the HS. If you have to twist and sculpt and string together scripture, your interpetation is big time questionable. If one cannot see the similarities between what the Israelites did and what that web link that a moderator posted as a good link is. I have run out of words to explain it.

One day, one of my rabbis sat me down to convince me of the absolute authority of the Rabbis. He began to tell me the story of Rabbi Eliezer which appears in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metsia, page 59b. Rabbi Eliezer was the greatest of the Rabbinical sages and the teacher of the legendary Rabbi Akiva. One day Rabbi Eliezer was engaged in a debate with the rest of the rabbis on some minutia of rabbinical law. Rabbi Eliezer maintained that a certain type of oven could not contract ritual uncleanness while all the other rabbis said it could.[14] The Talmud relates that "On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument" but he could not convince the other rabbis. Rabbi Eliezer became very frustrated. His rational arguments clearly proved he was right but this was not enough to convince the other rabbis to change their ruling. What was he to do? In desperation Rabbi Eliezer invoked a miracle. He shouted out, "If I am right, let the trees prove it!" All the rabbis in the academy suddenly heard a great rumble and when they looked outside they saw an entire orchard of trees inexplicably being uprooted and flying into the air. The rabbis were very impressed but they turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "We do not listen to trees." Rabbi Eliezer tried again. He shouted out: "If I am right let the river prove it!" Everyone in the academy ran outside and witnessed as the great river began to flow backwards. The rabbis were now extremely impressed but they turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "We do not listen to rivers." Rabbi Eliezer was by now steaming at the collar and shouted, "If I am right let the walls of the academy prove it." The walls of the academy immediately began to cave in. The rabbis turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said: "We do not listen to walls." Rabbi Eliezer was at his wits' end and finally shouted out, "If the law agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!" At that moment all those present in the academy heard a voice call out from heaven saying: "Why do you dispute with Rabbi Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the law agrees with him!" The rabbis were again impressed but turned to Rabbi Eliezer and said, "Sorry, we do not listen to Heaven." As my rabbi was telling me this story he opened to Deuteronomy 30:12 which says concerning the Torah "it is not in heaven." Of course, this phrase is part of a verse that says there is no excuse not to follow the Torah because it is not in heaven or across the sea but in our hearts and mouths. The Israelites had just heard the Torah directly from Moses and knew exactly what it meant, so there could be no excuses not to live by it. But this same verse was brought by the Rabbis as proof to Rabbi Eliezer why they should not listen to the Creator in matters of Torah. Once the Torah was given it was no longer in heaven and therefore God had no say in interpreting it. My rabbi's conclusion from all this was that the interpretations of the Rabbis even superseded a direct decree from God Himself, so who was I to question them.
Gordon, Nehemia (2009-03-13). The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus (Kindle Locations 294-295). Makor Hebrew Foundation. Kindle Edition.

I think this is what is called a "straw man argument".
You disagree with someone's stance, (in this case the mod's weblink), so you find someone else who is talking garbage, (in this case the Pharisees and Rabbis) and demolish them instead.
By association you have won the argument against the first man despite not presenting any facts.

 

[Chopper]

I think this is what is called a "straw man argument".
You disagree with someone's stance, (in this case the mod's weblink), so you find someone else who is talking garbage, (in this case the Pharisees and Rabbis) and demolish them instead.
By association you have won the argument against the first man despite not presenting any facts.

Mr. Drake. I did not start this thread for you to insult the folk who have something valuable to add to it. I don't want the Administration to close this thread. You have presented your case, thank you for that, you are at liberty to do that but you don't have liberty at this Forum to insult it's members. Please refrain from that.

 

[Francis Drake]

Mr. Drake. I did not start this thread for you to insult the folk who have something valuable to add to it. I don't want the Administration to close this thread. You have presented your case, thank you for that, you are at liberty to do that but you don't have liberty at this Forum to insult it's members. Please refrain from that.

Chopper, I am not quite sure how to respond without you or those with your viewpoint feeling insulted.

My comment was not an insult, but a correct definition of the methodology by which Silk attempted to oppose someone else.
Perhaps you should Google "straw man argument" and you will see that "straw man" is a simple dictionary definition of what Silk has done.
Not only that, but in his presentation it is Silk who, by comparing them to godless pharisees etc., has insulted everyone here who believes the "word of God" is not the bible but God the creator himself.
My apologies chopper. I shall leave you to enjoy your thread.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, I am not quite sure how to respond without you or those with your viewpoint feeling insulted.

My comment was not an insult, but a correct definition of the methodology by which Silk attempted to oppose someone else.
Perhaps you should Google "straw man argument" and you will see that "straw man" is a simple dictionary definition of what Silk has done.
Not only that, but in his presentation it is Silk who, by comparing them to godless pharisees etc., has insulted everyone here who believes the "word of God" is not the bible but God the creator himself.
My apologies chopper. I shall leave you to enjoy your thread.

Thank you Mr. Drake. We are Christian Gentlemen here in this thread. Your response is well pleasing in my sight, thank you.

 

[JohnC]

*Sigh*....

Seems like we left the OP discussion behind pretty quickly.....

anyway - when we see what's going on...

David was mad at God because he viewed Uzza as a "Righteous" man doing "Good works" for God... The Arc was the "Most Important thing"... It was their responsibility to protect this relic and Uzza was trying to protect that important thing... God struck out at him FOR doing just this thing... David's question was - "Why would God strike out against a Righteous man trying to protect the things of God".....

Later - David UNDERSTANDS what really happened - and he becomes very afraid..... Why?
God WAS trying to dump over/damage The Arc because of their utter disrespect for both it and HIMSELF... Uzza PREVENTED God from doing His will by propping the arc back up onto the ox-cart.... Thus - this was not an act of Righteousness, but rather an act of Rebellion against God..... An act of Rebellion that David had ordered by commanding the arc be brought up improperly.... He understood that HE was responsible for Uzza's death....

David - through his kingdom came to understand how important it was that HE - the Leader of Israel do things right in the first place... That the consequences of HIS own disobedience and ego trips resulted in the PEOPLE of his nation and the generations after him paying a heavy price for HIS disobedience and errors... The consequences of his own error did not simply fall upon himself...

Thanks