Unified Belief

[bobinfaith]

What Bible do you follow? My Bible tells me it is required....KJV 1611 edition;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...
Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins .....
Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins.....
KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.....
KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness.
John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

There are other references. If you wish to show me the KJV 1611 edition of the BIble says...baptism is not required for the remission of sin.......I would like to see it.?

Hello gpresdo;

In Acts 2:38 when Peter said be baptized, did this mean immersion by water, or baptized in the Spirit? Some interpret this as Spiritual Baptism but some interpret this as water immersion. There are good arguments on both sides of this passage.

I believe baptized in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to be saved but baptized in immersion water is not. Baptism by water immersion is a public testimony that one is committed to follow Jesus.

Your thoughts?

God bless you, brother.

 

[Major]

What Bible do you follow?

My Bible tells me it is required....KJV 1611 edition;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...
Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins .....
Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins.....
KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.....
KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness.
John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

There are other references.

If you wish to show me the KJV 1611 edition of the BIble says...baptism is not required for the remission of sin.......I would like to see it.?

I have several translations here in my office my friend. NONE of them say that water baptism is an essential to being saved.
Now if you have the time and want to go into each one of the Scriptures so as to apply proper Context, I will be glad to be your huckleberry!

You have posted some very good Scriptures and may I say that I can take every Scripture in any Bible and make it say whatever I want it to say. I can take just about any thought and find a Scripture and make it fit that thought but that is not the point.

However, that is not good hermeneutics. We must take ALL Scriptures in context so that we get the proper meaning.

What you are suggesting is called "Baptismal Regeneration". I personally advice everyone to be immersed after they have accepted Christ as Lord. It is an act of "Obedience" and it signifies and OUTWARD appearance of an INWARD change!

However, and importantly, requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation and THAT is un-biblical!

To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation.

To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Allow me to say very clearly that Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins and that is what we read in Romans 5:8; and 2 Corth. 5:21. J

Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone ( which is seen in John 3:16; Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be and is not a requirement for salvation.

 

[Major]

This is interesting and would make me wonder why Paul would say
1 Corinthians 1:14,17 ESV
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

and follow up with..
[17] For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I mean if we are saved by baptism why would Paul refuse administering baptism to all except Crispus and Gaius?

And in addition...... As far as the record of Scripture is concerned, Christ Himself actually did not water baptize anyone. Why not?

I can offer at least one answer............whereas John the Baptist’s role was water baptism, Jesus Christ’s function was Spirit baptism (Pentecost, Acts chapter 2) and fire baptism (wrath of Daniel’s 70th Week and the Second Coming).

John served in his capacity, not conflicting with Jesus, and Jesus served in His role, not overlapping with John.

John the Baptist’s words about Messiah Jesus in Matthew 3:11-12: .......
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Also, Luke 3:16-17: ......
“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.”

Over the years, water baptism has proven to be a really divisive issue.

Some will take John 3:1-8 where Jesus says to Nicodemus that............
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Now you can use the KJV 1611, or the NKJV, or the ESC. or the NSAB or any one except the New World Translation and you will read the same thing.

SEE! The Bible says that we must be "born of water and the Spirit" so then we must ne baptized in water.

Now I agree 100% that that is what it says. But is that what it says or is it what WE WANT IT SAY.???

Read the entire passage starting from verse
Verse # 1.
Nicodemus is asking Jesus how he can possibly enter his mother’s womb again and be re-born. So he’s talking about physical birth.
He can’t understand the concept of physically being re-born. Obviously that’s an impossibility. But Jesus isn’t talking about physical rebirth, He’s talking about spiritual rebirth.

Look at what He says in verses 5 and 6. I’ll repeat it............
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

You see it ? So “born of water” in this context looks to mean “physically born” not “baptized.”

The WATER here is the "amnionic water" of the flesh of the woman = PHYSICALLY!

That is what it means to be "Hermanuticly correct".

 

[forgiven61]

born of water” not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;. titus 3:5 that is imo

 

[Papa Smurf]

You have posted some very good Scriptures and may I say that I can take every Scripture in any Bible and make it say whatever I want it to say. I can take just about any thought and find a Scripture and make it fit that thought but that is not the point.

However, that is not good hermeneutics. We must take ALL Scriptures in context so that we get the proper meaning.

Hello Major, you have made such an important point, something that needs to be considered in this and in every other case. Thank you

I remember listening occasionally to Madylan Murray O'Hair's TV show (the famous atheist who got prayer removed from schools in America) who loved to say that she chose to be an atheist, at least in part, "because even the Bible says 'there is no God'". You know what, she's correct, it does say that, several times, in fact .. e.g. Psalm 14:1. The question is, is that the meaning that God intended to covey to us in such verses/passages?

A less hyperbolic example of this is found in 1 Timothy 2:15. Here we are told plainly that women are "saved" by childbearing and good works.

Then there is Luke 14:26, where the Lord Jesus tells us that we must "hate" our mother, our father, our spouse, our children and ourselves, or we cannot be His disciple.

Such examples show us why Biblical (and oft times historic) context is an essential part of arriving at a proper exegesis of a verse or passage.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[gpresdo]

Hello gpresdo;

In Acts 2:38 when Peter said be baptized, did this mean immersion by water, or baptized in the Spirit? Some interpret this as Spiritual Baptism but some interpret this as water immersion. There are good arguments on both sides of this passage.

I believe baptized in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to be saved but baptized in immersion water is not. Baptism by water immersion is a public testimony that one is committed to follow Jesus.

Your thoughts?

God bless you, brother.

Water.
One can devise arguments in many fashions but, God's word is clear.
The Holy Spirit is realized after complete repentance of which water baptism is a part.

It should be noted that in a study of baptism...there can be found no record of adverse conclusion/acceptance of baptism requirement ...prior to the 1960's.... why? Did the Bible change since the 1960's...I conclude ...not. Did we get smarter since 1960's..I conclude ...not.

 

[gpresdo]

I have several translations here in my office my friend. NONE of them say that water baptism is an essential to being saved.
Now if you have the time and want to go into each one of the Scriptures so as to apply proper Context, I will be glad to be your huckleberry!

You have posted some very good Scriptures and may I say that I can take every Scripture in any Bible and make it say whatever I want it to say. I can take just about any thought and find a Scripture and make it fit that thought but that is not the point.

However, that is not good hermeneutics. We must take ALL Scriptures in context so that we get the proper meaning.

What you are suggesting is called "Baptismal Regeneration". I personally advice everyone to be immersed after they have accepted Christ as Lord. It is an act of "Obedience" and it signifies and OUTWARD appearance of an INWARD change!

However, and importantly, requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation and THAT is un-biblical!

To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation.

To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Allow me to say very clearly that Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins and that is what we read in Romans 5:8; and 2 Corth. 5:21. J

Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone ( which is seen in John 3:16; Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be and is not a requirement for salvation.

I will not be sucked into that go no where vacuum...The KJV 1611 edition properly represents God's word as a road map/plan to guide us to eternal salvation.
Isn't it interesting that most...if not all...new bible editions has been produced since the 1960's?
God's word is very clear to me but...two parables are my reminder when I see failed interpretations...1} Some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only....for that person. 2} It shall be revealed in due time...for that person...

 

[crossnote]

I will not be sucked into that go no where vacuum...The KJV 1611 edition properly represents God's word as a road map/plan to guide us to eternal salvation.
Isn't it interesting that most...if not all...new bible editions has been produced since the 1960's?
God's word is very clear to me but...two parables are my reminder when I see failed interpretations...1} Some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only....for that person. 2} It shall be revealed in due time...for that person...

So missionaries that translate the Bible into the native's tongue and end up not translating into the KJV1611; I suppose that is doing a disservice to God and His Gospel?

 

[Major]

I will not be sucked into that go no where vacuum...The KJV 1611 edition properly represents God's word as a road map/plan to guide us to eternal salvation.
Isn't it interesting that most...if not all...new bible editions has been produced since the 1960's?
God's word is very clear to me but...two parables are my reminder when I see failed interpretations...1} Some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only....for that person. 2} It shall be revealed in due time...for that person...

"Sucked into that go no where vacuum"????? I have NO earthly idea what you are talking about.

 

[Major]

Hello Major, you have made such an important point, something that needs to be considered in this and in every other case. Thank you

I remember listening occasionally to Madylan Murray O'Hair's TV show (the famous atheist who got prayer removed from schools in America) who loved to say that she chose to be an atheist, at least in part, "because even the Bible says 'there is no God'". You know what, she's correct, it does say that, several times, in fact .. e.g. Psalm 14:1. The question is, is that the meaning that God intended to covey to us in such verses/passages?

A less hyperbolic example of this is found in 1 Timothy 2:15. Here we are told plainly that women are "saved" by childbearing and good works.

Then there is Luke 14:26, where the Lord Jesus tells us that we must "hate" our mother, our father, our spouse, our children and ourselves, or we cannot be His disciple.

Such examples show us why Biblical (and oft times historic) context is an essential part of arriving at a proper exegesis of a verse or passage.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Thanks brother for those examples. They go to show that we can make the Bible say what we want it to say.

Listen......I can from a family where my father said adamantly that "Divorced men" could not be Pastors or deacons. Now my dad did not even finish the 7th grade but he believed what ever his old pastor told him. Now that old pastor was a great Christian man. He was a cotton farmer who was (he said) called by God to preach and anointed. He as well did not finish the 10th grade. Now that does not make either bad men but it does make them UN-EDUCATED.

The point is I believed my dad without question. He believed his pastor. The result was "ERROR"!
And then one day as I grew older, I actually sat down and read what the Bible said in 1 Timothy about deacons and Pastors and you know what....the word DIVORCED is not there. What is there is "The husband of ONE WIFE".

It is up to all of us to study and examine the LITERAL words of Scripture and with the help of the Holy Spirit learn what God did say not what someone has told us it said or WHAT WE WANT IT TO SAY.

 

[Major]

Water.
One can devise arguments in many fashions but, God's word is clear.
The Holy Spirit is realized after complete repentance of which water baptism is a part.

It should be noted that in a study of baptism...there can be found no record of adverse conclusion/acceptance of baptism requirement ...prior to the 1960's.... why? Did the Bible change since the 1960's...I conclude ...not. Did we get smarter since 1960's..I conclude ...not.

There is no arguments being devised. YES, the Word of God is clear!

You said...............
"The Holy Spirit is realized after complete repentance of which water baptism is a part."

Now that is just incorrect! It is what you have been told and it is what YOU want to believe but it simply is not correct. I do not say that to be confrontational at all just a statement of Bible truth.

I agree that the Gift of the Holy Spirit comes after the commitment of Christ by faith in Jesus and we repent of our sins............
but water baptism is not a part of salvation!

Now please just take a moment and THINK with me. YOU and ME are on a battlefield. The captain says, men Tomorrow we attack and some of you will die.

Now you and I start to talk with Billy Bod, our friend in the next foxhole. We witness to him about Jesus as the Christ and all of a sudden he says.....I want to be saved!!! We lead him in the sinners prayer of repentance and he accepts the Lord Jesus as his Saviour. There is NO time to find a river. There is no water anywhere.

Now in The next moment, he is shot and killed. Now........THINK! According to your thesis, because he was NOT WATER BAPTISED, HE WENT TO HELL!

Is that the kind of God that you believe the KJV 1611 Bible teaches us to love and obey.

 

[Major]

So missionaries that translate the Bible into the native's tongue and end up not translating into the KJV1611; I suppose that is doing a disservice to God and His Gospel?

You know.....this debate is one out of the Twilight Zone!

IMPO, this speaks of the Bible, a book.........being more important than God the person. Or am i reding this wrong!

 

[Major]

Water.
One can devise arguments in many fashions but, God's word is clear.
The Holy Spirit is realized after complete repentance of which water baptism is a part.

It should be noted that in a study of baptism...there can be found no record of adverse conclusion/acceptance of baptism requirement ...prior to the 1960's.... why? Did the Bible change since the 1960's...I conclude ...not. Did we get smarter since 1960's..I conclude ...not.

May I take a moment here to explain a real negative about water baptism. Well I am anyway. Please feel free to ignore it.

The practice of demanding and teaching salvation is through Water Baptism actually and realistically does TWO things to harm men.
#1. The idea logically says that WATER is more important that the Blood of God in saving a mans soul. When is a man saved??????

• Romans 3:28: “We hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”
• Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God.”
• Romans 4:5: “To the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
• John 3:16: “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
• Acts 13:38–39: “Through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed [justified] '

All of those Scriptures scream the same thing. We are declared JUSTIFIED, NOT GUILITY at the moment we accept Christ by faith.
There is not one single word about being water baptized in those scripture.

#2. Teaching Water Baptism as an agent in Salvation has lead to many denominations to baptize infants.

What that does is plant the idea that because you were baptized you are saved. NO! You are wet but not saved. So as that person
ages, he believes he is saveD but he is not. When he hears the gospel he rejects it with the words......I AM OK WITH GOD BECAUSE I WAS BAPTIZED.

 

[crossnote]

You know.....this debate is one out of the Twilight Zone!

IMPO, this speaks of the Bible, a book.........being more important than God the person. Or am i reding this wrong!

Well, I don't want to depreciate the importance of the Bible, for without it, we would be in the dark as to Who God is.

 

[Major]

Well, I don't want to depreciate the importance of the Bible, for without it, we would be in the dark as to Who God is.

O.....I agree 101%. NO ONE thinks more of the Word of God than do I!!!
All I am pointing out is that the creation can never become more than the Creator.

I AM a King James Person! I read it, have several copies and teach from it. However, that does not mean that other translation do not speak to us as well.

I would not judge a persons sincerity or faith in Christ due to his choice of his Bible translation unless it was the New World Translation! (JW production)

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I appreciate King James because it differentiates between 'thee' and 'ye'. That's important, IMHO. Whenever I come across 'thee' in the text it immediately gets my attention.

 

[crossnote]

O.....I agree 101%. NO ONE thinks more of the Word of God than do I!!!
All I am pointing out is that the creation can never become more than the Creator.

This may sound goofy, but just as Jesus is the Word Incarnate (creation);
so the Bible is God's spoken Word written ( incarnated, so to speak)

 

[Major]

I appreciate King James because it differentiates between 'thee' and 'ye'. That's important, IMHO. Whenever I come across 'thee' in the text it immediately gets my attention.

"YE" may be correct in "THY" comment!

Word-for-word translations..............
KJV---NKJV---NASB----AVS.
Keep in mind, the difference in the grammar between these ancient languages and our own is significant, so a 100 percent word-for-word translation is not entirely possible. But, these Bible versions work to produce a translation that’s as close to that standard as possible.

Meaning to Meaning translation are.....
NIV----ESV---CEV----Good News Bible
Meaning-to-meaning translations focus on maintaining the overall thought or message behind the passage while achieving a higher level of readability. These versions of the Bible are quite popular because they flow a bit more naturally to the modern reader. But one must be careful while reading a meaning-to-meaning Bible because when translated in this way, the personally held doctrine of the translator more easily seeps in.

Paraphrased translations are......................
The Message----The Amplified Bible----The Living Bible
Paraphrased Bibles take the ideology of the meaning-to-meaning method to a new extreme. These Bibles give the reader ultimate accessibility, being easy to understand for almost anyone. In that way, they are profoundly important as they have the ability to reach so many. But, one must be even more cautious with these translations, because the translator is given the maximum level of poetic license in their work

 

[Major]

This may sound goofy, but just as Jesus is the Word Incarnate (creation);
so the Bible is God's spoken Word written ( incarnated, so to speak)

NOPE! Sounds right to me.

IMHO.....According to Colossians 1:16, it was the Lord Jesus Christ who dictated HIS Word to 40 different men over 1500 years. THAT makes it the Word of God!

 

[crossnote]

"YE" may be correct in "THY" comment!