Unity and Uniformity 2

[Musicmaster]

Ok, let's keep this thread consistent with the rules.

I found the following, which is an interesting set of definitions and distinctions:

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This phenomenon is alive and well all around us today, but please keep in mind that there's nothing new under the sun. None of what we see going on around us today is new or novel. The plethora of sins being perpetrated under these definitions and distinctions are as old as the fall of mankind. That's not comforting, but it does help to put into perspective how nothing has really changed in the sense of something new happening.

That speaks loud volumes to the fact that the same hoard of demons are still working what they know works. Introducing something new would entail taking chances, which their leader likely isn't going to allow...until the coming of that man of sin. It's hard to accept that such a man could possibly be far worse than the worst of all the despots throughout the history of mankind. The Marxists killed in the 100's of millions, far more than Hitler and others combined.

So, when we hear of the cultural demands for tolerance, rest assured that demands will be forthcoming to not only tolerate and accept, but also to celebrate. Remember the three boys in Babylon who were thrown into the furnace for their refusal to "celebrate" idolatry above and beyond mere tolerance of it? It's the same old tactics, and recognizing this can help lend strength to your faith to stand up rather than to bow down.

What comes to your mind when reading the definitions and distinctions above?

MM

 

[Garee]

Unity is the work of the Holy Spirit the unifier and justifier forming Christ in us to both will and empower us .The working out of our salvation. Some do it with pleasure like Jesus desiring to do the dying will of the father with pleasure. Unlike the other like Jonah who were dragged vomited out murmuring all the way went and after to die. .for selfish reasons

Philipian2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Uniformity would be consider a law of the fathers I heard it through the grape vine venerable men lording it over the faith of belief of the non-venerable show watchers.

One example to represent the work of the Spirit The father and Son .The other the work of the flesh the resisting spirit the god of this world .

The Spirit of unity below forming Christ the faithful Creator in the faithless creation mankind. .

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[BibleLover]

Unity is Scriptural; uniformity is cultic.

 

[Musicmaster]

Unity is Scriptural; uniformity is cultic.

It seems to me that there are limits to both, depending upon what basis of truth defines the effort itself.

Can you explain your thoughts in more detail?

MM

 

[BibleLover]

It seems to me that there are limits to both, depending upon what basis of truth defines the effort itself.

Can you explain your thoughts in more detail?

MM

Throughout the didactic books of the NT, we find unity of the body of Christ through the Holy Spirit, yet we see allowances for diversity of operations within the body as the various gifts are applied. The NT teaches agreement among all individual churches with regard to the essential doctrines.

On the other hand, within the landscape of religion we find cults operating, and one common key characteristic of cults is the enforcement of uniformity within its membership, whether in dress, manners, or thought. The latter is especially important to all cults.

Scripture emphasizes unity on essential doctrines but allows for the freedom of conscience for individual persons with regard to non-essential elements or practices.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Ok, let's keep this thread consistent with the rules.

I found the following, which is an interesting set of definitions and distinctions:

XXX

This phenomenon is alive and well all around us today, but please keep in mind that there's nothing new under the sun. None of what we see going on around us today is new or novel. The plethora of sins being perpetrated under these definitions and distinctions are as old as the fall of mankind. That's not comforting, but it does help to put into perspective how nothing has really changed in the sense of something new happening.

That speaks loud volumes to the fact that the same hoard of demons are still working what they know works. Introducing something new would entail taking chances, which their leader likely isn't going to allow...until the coming of that man of sin. It's hard to accept that such a man could possibly be far worse than the worst of all the despots throughout the history of mankind. The Marxists killed in the 100's of millions, far more than Hitler and others combined.

So, when we hear of the cultural demands for tolerance, rest assured that demands will be forthcoming to not only tolerate and accept, but also to celebrate. Remember the three boys in Babylon who were thrown into the furnace for their refusal to "celebrate" idolatry above and beyond mere tolerance of it? It's the same old tactics, and recognizing this can help lend strength to your faith to stand up rather than to bow down.

What comes to your mind when reading the definitions and distinctions above?

MM

We are united as being in Christ Jesus and now part of His body, but not required to all hold exactly same doctrines and practices!

 

[Lanolin]

Unity to me means working together or being more than the sum of our parts.
Uniformity reminds me of school uniforms - everyone wears the same clothes, or at least, the same colour, so you can tell they belong to that same school.

This only works if the uniform is provided - or specfied and easy to find, buy or make. If it's too hard to have the same color, logo, or material then everyone will have something different. So in some ways you have to have a mass production, but you also need the uniform to come in different sizes because people are different sizes naturally.

 

[Musicmaster]

Throughout the didactic books of the NT, we find unity of the body of Christ through the Holy Spirit, yet we see allowances for diversity of operations within the body as the various gifts are applied. The NT teaches agreement among all individual churches with regard to the essential doctrines.

On the other hand, within the landscape of religion we find cults operating, and one common key characteristic of cults is the enforcement of uniformity within its membership, whether in dress, manners, or thought. The latter is especially important to all cults.

Scripture emphasizes unity on essential doctrines but allows for the freedom of conscience for individual persons with regard to non-essential elements or practices.

Now THAT is an explanation most anyone can sink his or her teeth into. THAT is the kind of exchanges we should see more of when questions are asked.

Thank you, sir, for the thoughtful reply.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

We are united as being in Christ Jesus and now part of His body, but not required to all hold exactly same doctrines and practices!

Really? Hmm. What do you think Jesus meant when he prayed:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

What do you suppose being "one" entails?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Really? Hmm. What do you think Jesus meant when he prayed:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

What do you suppose being "one" entails?

MM

In other words...do you think Jesus looks to the Father and says, "Well, what I meant by my prayer is that it's ok that we're 'one' on the basis of the essentials, but all the other periphery things are inconsequential, and therefore no big deal to sweat over."

I'm asking this question because it tends to strike at the heart of modern thinking that I hear all the time from professing believers when asked about denominationalism and all the other divisions amongst what the world considers to be the definition of "Christianity".

MM

 

[Garee]

Really? Hmm. What do you think Jesus meant when he prayed:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

What do you suppose being "one" entails?

MM

One acording the the same spirit of faith as it is written .It informs us there must be heresies or sects amomst us that offer thier own private intepretation as personal comentariies .The kingdom aof God in living temples not made with human hands that works within the believers comes not by obersevation .He created sects or denomination so that tribes or families of believers do not kill off each other ( a safegurad). The pagan foundation out of sight out of mind .Murder the mispreceived competition

 

[AtomicSnowflake]

Romans chapter 14

 

[Musicmaster]

This thread is an opportunity to explore such things as to what is consistent with Jesus' prayer to the Father.

In other words, when it comes to doctrinal differences, it seems that many gauge the line between acceptable differences and unacceptable differences at levels they simply cannot agree.

For example, I ran across a group that has a loose affiliation with others of the same basic name, but that claim to not be a denomination as a whole. That one particular group lays claim to believing that they are the only ones who will populate Heaven since all other groupings and individuals will not make it to Heaven who are outside the ranks of those who attend one of the organizations with which they are affiliated by name.

When I asked one of the Th.D's, who presides over one of the other of the affiliated groups in that same town, about that group, he rolled his eyes to the ceiling and said, in veiled exasperation, that he was aware of their sentiments along that line, but that he and his group didn't agree with that other group.

When I asked how closely they fellowship with that other group, he said they have very good relations, and that their differences aren't a big deal along the lines of the essentials.

Now, AS referenced Romans 14 in the above post, a chapter that addresses such things as one day in reference to another, eating meats, placing stumbling blocks before another on the basis of freedom and judging on that basis, but that doesn't get to the level of doctrinal belief of the magnitude I'm speaking about.

So, rather than for me to launch into a full blown dissertation in this one posting, what are everyone's thoughts so far in reference to this:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

You see, when I look at all the differences, and therefore the lack of unity among the various groupings with their buildings and creeds and teachings that differ from all others not affiliated under some "denominational name" or other identifier, and therefore having little to absolutely no common ties of fellowship, I'm left wondering why their leadership has allowed this all to go on for so long. If they were spiritual, then would they not sense how wrong this all is?

I once asked why all the various groupings are NOT unified in each city. On the basis of that question, someone asked, "Well, who would be in charge?"

That one question pretty much is the eye-rolling core of this entire problem. When Paul addressed THE Church in any particular city or province, that puts to rest any idea that they were all divided on doctrinal distinctives like we have today. The horror of all this is that each group found for themselves leadership willing to put up with their demands for distinctiveness, and to lead on their side of the dividing lines.

Now, before I close this post, I will state to you my answer to that question: That person hit the nail on the head as to the problem in the thinking of the average believer. They see men as the leaders while turning a blind eye to the Head, which is Christ Jesus.

John 10:11, 14

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. ... 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Please take notice that Jesus did not say that He AND all those others are the good shepherds (plural). So, when I heard that question, it set in stone the core problem in the thinking of the professing masses and their leadership. They fail to give thought to the very words of Jesus:

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:13-15

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Who among the leadership out there are those hirelings Jesus talked about? Might they include those who do not collectively (with each other across unbiblical lines of division) seek to break down the doctrinal distinctives that keep them separated from being actively unified with the other groupings. Men shepherding is a function, not a position or office that places them above the others in their grouping, as many tend to claim and practice.

So, what are your thoughts?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Dare I say it, but all true believers in each city who see the Bible as the doctrinal authority, if they we were unified in accordance with Jesus' prayer to the Father, this nation wouldn't be in the mess it is right now, and historically. Salt and light cannot help but to keep evil at bay; much further back than it is right now with us all being divided along our petty distinctives.

MM

 

[Major]

Ok, let's keep this thread consistent with the rules.

I found the following, which is an interesting set of definitions and distinctions:

XXX

This phenomenon is alive and well all around us today, but please keep in mind that there's nothing new under the sun. None of what we see going on around us today is new or novel. The plethora of sins being perpetrated under these definitions and distinctions are as old as the fall of mankind. That's not comforting, but it does help to put into perspective how nothing has really changed in the sense of something new happening.

That speaks loud volumes to the fact that the same hoard of demons are still working what they know works. Introducing something new would entail taking chances, which their leader likely isn't going to allow...until the coming of that man of sin. It's hard to accept that such a man could possibly be far worse than the worst of all the despots throughout the history of mankind. The Marxists killed in the 100's of millions, far more than Hitler and others combined.

So, when we hear of the cultural demands for tolerance, rest assured that demands will be forthcoming to not only tolerate and accept, but also to celebrate. Remember the three boys in Babylon who were thrown into the furnace for their refusal to "celebrate" idolatry above and beyond mere tolerance of it? It's the same old tactics, and recognizing this can help lend strength to your faith to stand up rather than to bow down.

What comes to your mind when reading the definitions and distinctions above?

MM

We as Christians who allow Christ to live through us must place Christ in 1st place in our lives and thoughts.

If our thoughts and action do not have a center which is focused on Christ then our thoughts and actions are wrong and we must then conform to Bible standards which place the center of reality on Jesus Christ as God in the flesh!

 

[Major]

Dare I say it, but all true believers in each city who see the Bible as the doctrinal authority, if they we were unified in accordance with Jesus' prayer to the Father, this nation wouldn't be in the mess it is right now, and historically. Salt and light cannot help but to keep evil at bay; much further back than it is right now with us all being divided along our petty distinctives.

MM

Agree. However, under the LBJ administration in 1964, we as a nation then "Legally" rejected prayer in schools and Bible readings in school.

We in effect said to God..........Leave us alone, we do not need you.

I think God said.....I hear you and did exactly what we asked.

 

[Musicmaster]

Agree. However, under the LBJ administration in 1964, we as a nation then "Legally" rejected prayer in schools and Bible readings in school.

We in effect said to God..........Leave us alone, we do not need you.

I think God said.....I hear you and did exactly what we asked.

Major, I think we can both agree that an official demand to stop prayer in school never did remove God from our schools. Satan himself doesn't have that power. Granted, the influences in our schools have changed, in that the religion of Secular Humanism has won acceptance by decree from the wicked administrators of school districts across the nation. Yes, there is religion being taught in our schools, whether they admit that fact or not.

Blessedly, this will all be brought into the light, and all the hypocrisies of school administrators and government authorities. They will all stand before the Most High and answer for their beliefs and practices in this world. THAT is what Huxley was referring to when he admitted to mass media as to why "scientists" gravitated toward evolutionary theory, "...because the thought of God interfered with our sexual mores." The secularists love talking about how "religion" is the great evil trying to force everyone into conformity... Frankly, they're guilty of the very thing for which they blame people of faith...hypocrisy on display. The problem is that the communities of faith didn't collectively fight back because of all their petty divisions along the lines of allegedly "non-essentials" behind their four walls. Sadly, this will never change until Christ is reigning on the throne in Jerusalem over the whole earth.

MM

 

[BibleLover]

This thread is an opportunity to explore such things as to what is consistent with Jesus' prayer to the Father.

In other words, when it comes to doctrinal differences, it seems that many gauge the line between acceptable differences and unacceptable differences at levels they simply cannot agree.

For example, I ran across a group that has a loose affiliation with others of the same basic name, but that claim to not be a denomination as a whole. That one particular group lays claim to believing that they are the only ones who will populate Heaven since all other groupings and individuals will not make it to Heaven who are outside the ranks of those who attend one of the organizations with which they are affiliated by name.

When I asked one of the Th.D's, who presides over one of the other of the affiliated groups in that same town, about that group, he rolled his eyes to the ceiling and said, in veiled exasperation, that he was aware of their sentiments along that line, but that he and his group didn't agree with that other group.

When I asked how closely they fellowship with that other group, he said they have very good relations, and that their differences aren't a big deal along the lines of the essentials.

Now, AS referenced Romans 14 in the above post, a chapter that addresses such things as one day in reference to another, eating meats, placing stumbling blocks before another on the basis of freedom and judging on that basis, but that doesn't get to the level of doctrinal belief of the magnitude I'm speaking about.

So, rather than for me to launch into a full blown dissertation in this one posting, what are everyone's thoughts so far in reference to this:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

You see, when I look at all the differences, and therefore the lack of unity among the various groupings with their buildings and creeds and teachings that differ from all others not affiliated under some "denominational name" or other identifier, and therefore having little to absolutely no common ties of fellowship, I'm left wondering why their leadership has allowed this all to go on for so long. If they were spiritual, then would they not sense how wrong this all is?

I once asked why all the various groupings are NOT unified in each city. On the basis of that question, someone asked, "Well, who would be in charge?"

That one question pretty much is the eye-rolling core of this entire problem. When Paul addressed THE Church in any particular city or province, that puts to rest any idea that they were all divided on doctrinal distinctives like we have today. The horror of all this is that each group found for themselves leadership willing to put up with their demands for distinctiveness, and to lead on their side of the dividing lines.

Now, before I close this post, I will state to you my answer to that question: That person hit the nail on the head as to the problem in the thinking of the average believer. They see men as the leaders while turning a blind eye to the Head, which is Christ Jesus.

John 10:11, 14

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. ... 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Please take notice that Jesus did not say that He AND all those others are the good shepherds (plural). So, when I heard that question, it set in stone the core problem in the thinking of the professing masses and their leadership. They fail to give thought to the very words of Jesus:

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:13-15

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Who among the leadership out there are those hirelings Jesus talked about? Might they include those who do not collectively (with each other across unbiblical lines of division) seek to break down the doctrinal distinctives that keep them separated from being actively unified with the other groupings. Men shepherding is a function, not a position or office that places them above the others in their grouping, as many tend to claim and practice.

So, what are your thoughts?

MM

I assume you have had dealings with the (RULE3.1), a manifestation of the so-called "Restoration Movement", one of the various religious "movements" that sprang out of the Second Great Awakening in mid-19th century America. That group claims to have restored the practices and identity of the nascent church. Unfortunately for them, they cannot plausably prove their claims, either biblically or historically. They claim not to be a "denomination", so the designation "sect" certainly fits. This group is right on the borderline of being a cult. They hold just enough orthodoxy to escape that designation. Within the restoration movement are two main groups, the (RULE3.1) and the (RULE3.1) branch of the (RULE3.1) a more conservative body. (RULE3.1) members tend to hypercritical and contentious, their local churches tend to grow more out of sheep stealing more than evangelization.

 

[Musicmaster]

STAFF EDIT of reply copy.

BL, I didn't want to put the name to what grouping I was talking about as that may be viewed as a personal assault by some. That's why I stuck to addressing primarily the beliefs of the group rather than to call them out by name.

Yes, I'm very aware of the history and beliefs you mentioned. They are very internally authoritarian as an 'elder rule' grouping.

I figured someone would pick up on what belief system I was talking about. That Th.D I mentioned was beside himself in grief over a number of his group's affiliates, and their claims to being the only people who will populate Heaven. His pain was evident on his face, and I felt for him, although I don't subscribe to a number of his beliefs.

MM

 

[Major]

Major, I think we can both agree that an official demand to stop prayer in school never did remove God from our schools. Satan himself doesn't have that power. Granted, the influences in our schools have changed, in that the religion of Secular Humanism has won acceptance by decree from the wicked administrators of school districts across the nation. Yes, there is religion being taught in our schools, whether they admit that fact or not.

Blessedly, this will all be brought into the light, and all the hypocrisies of school administrators and government authorities. They will all stand before the Most High and answer for their beliefs and practices in this world. THAT is what Huxley was referring to when he admitted to mass media as to why "scientists" gravitated toward evolutionary theory, "...because the thought of God interfered with our sexual mores." The secularists love talking about how "religion" is the great evil trying to force everyone into conformity... Frankly, they're guilty of the very thing for which they blame people of faith...hypocrisy on display. The problem is that the communities of faith didn't collectively fight back because of all their petty divisions along the lines of allegedly "non-essentials" behind their four walls. Sadly, this will never change until Christ is reigning on the throne in Jerusalem over the whole earth.

MM

Yes, I do agree. However....in the eyes of the world, it sent the single that America does not need God. It made the process "Legal".

It is like the 1973 Roe vs Ward ruling. There was always abortion done behind closed doors or under a different name such and "D & C".
But when Roe vs Wade was passed, then it was made "Legal" That is the difference in my eyes.