War And Christianity.

[LysanderShapiro]

I think you're mistaken on this. I'm no Constitutional Lawyer, but there is plenty of precedent that authorizes the President of the United States, as the Commander in Chief of the U.S. Military, to order troops to action without congressional approval. The first time this was done was in 1801 by President Thomas Jefferson when he ordered the newly established U.S. Navy to Libya to fight the Barbary Pirates.

But if there are any Constitutional Scholars lurking, they need to fact-check me.



This one, I know you're mistaken on. Congress passed a joint resolution in October of 2002 that authorized military action in Iraq.

That's my fault for wording it wrong. Rather what made it unconstitutional was that it wasn't congressionally declared.

The common argument is the war powers act during Vietnam. The problem is that law in itself was also a constitutional violation -- it embolded executive permission which created an imbalance. The act has been brought up a bunch of times as a dead letter (which I just found out) especially since Clinton bypassed its points when sending troops to Bosnia.

You're right though that congress authorized it, but I should have said didn't declare it. It was unconstitutional.

 

[Kurt75]

That's my fault for wording it wrong. Rather what made it unconstitutional was that it wasn't congressionally declared.

The common argument is the war powers act during Vietnam. The problem is that law in itself was also a constitutional violation -- it embolded executive permission which created an imbalance. The act has been brought up a bunch of times as a dead letter (which I just found out) especially since Clinton bypassed its points when sending troops to Bosnia.

You're right though that congress authorized it, but I should have said didn't declare it. It was unconstitutional.

Okay, no problem. Is it your position that war conducted outside of a strict Congressional Declaration of War cannot be just?

 

[Intojoy]

And more than half the "Allies" were Communist, atheist Russians!
Are you claiming God uses Communists too?

If you read my post you would know the answer is yes. Did God use the Assyrians? Babylonians? Greeks? Romans?
Yes. Which is worse atheism or idolatry? Idolatry is always at the top of the list of sins right before pride because in idolatry one worships other gods who are in reality demons.

 

[Intojoy]

Hey! Guess what? Muslims claim the same thing!
So do Buddhists!
So do Jews!

Ain't it comforting to know that ALL religious people have the same justifications?

And the Muslims were far kinder to the Jews than the Catholics were when they controlled Jerusalem. The Catholics of the dark ages are guilty of extreme cruelty.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Okay, no problem. Is it your position that war conducted outside of a strict Congressional Declaration of War cannot be just?

It's the people's position. The Constitution wasn't written for the sake of government power--quite the opposite. It was for the sake to protect the people from the government. Just because a government puts a law into practice doesn't make it a just law. Many times its violates the natural law.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I think we've reached a pretty big impasse.

Perhaps a good question to ask, intojoy, is what makes a war unjust? Of course you wouldn't say when war violates the Just War Principles, so it has to be something beyond that.

And when should peace be the goal?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Y'know, before we even proceed any longer, I want to go forward in saying even though you can't read my reactions, my tone, etc. etc., I think I crossed over into territory where I was probably being snarky and trying to get some of you to admit things I highly disagree with for the wrong reasons.

This thread was intended to be a place of discussion. I should apologize for my lack of humbleness.

I stand by my position, but I shouldn't even get close to demeaning anyone for their positions, no matter how much we disagree.

 

[Agricola]

God does not need humans to cripple a nation, the US is a good example, while the US administration sit in Israel demanding Israel gives over tons of land, California burns, but I guess that is another thread.

A more pressing development is Syria, Cameron , our Prime Minister Claims to be a Christian, Parliament recalled to discuss the actions of Chemical weapons. I wonder what God would have said if Cameron just asked God and not Parliament.

I will refrain from going on about this as that is also another thread, so I will leave it at that.

FInal thought, God uses everyone, God allows the rise of nations, kings and rulers and God uses them. God also brings about thier destruction, be that through other Rulers or nations, these people maybe Communist and non beleivers, but God can still use them. Not really any different to peices on a chess board.

Gods influence is stronger than you think, people like to think God just sits back with a bowl of popcorn, or whatever it is God likes to eat, that is if God does eat anything, and simply watch his creation tick on by.

 

[Intojoy]

And the evil deeds of the West? Will God use some other nation as you claim to stop that?
Or are you claiming the West is pure and faultless?

Child please!
No country is godly!!!!!!!
When America's sin crosses the line, and it will, she will be judged. But for now there is no comparison between the USA and the Muslim morality - none. The hatred of Israel results in bowls of wrath, America will eventually join the world's hatred of Israel and when that happens we will get iraqed.

 

[KingJ]

When America's sin crosses the line, and it will, she will be judged.

Definitely! Leaders / soldiers gulity of crimes against humanity are immediately taken to trial...unlike in the east. Working democracy cannot be compared to dictatorships and communism.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Definitely! Leaders / soldiers gulity of crimes against humanity are immediately taken to trial...unlike in the east. Working democracy cannot be compared to dictatorships and communism.

Indeed. But of course, an ideology cannot be enforced -- it must be accepted, otherwise it becomes tyranny.

 

[Major]

Y'know, before we even proceed any longer, I want to go forward in saying even though you can't read my reactions, my tone, etc. etc., I think I crossed over into territory where I was probably being snarky and trying to get some of you to admit things I highly disagree with for the wrong reasons.

This thread was intended to be a place of discussion. I should apologize for my lack of humbleness.

I stand by my position, but I shouldn't even get close to demeaning anyone for their positions, no matter how much we disagree.

Hey man..........we all have opinions and no ones opinion is more realavant than someone else's hence the name "Forum".

It is always HOW we say things NOT always what we say . You are doing great, showing humbleness, compassion and restraint. Keep up the good work!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Hey man..........we all have opinions and no ones opinion is more realavant than someone else's hence the name "Forum".

It is always HOW we say things NOT always what we say . You are doing great, showing humbleness, compassion and restraint. Keep up the good work!

Thanks, Major -- very kind of you.

 

[Major]

Y'know, before we even proceed any longer, I want to go forward in saying even though you can't read my reactions, my tone, etc. etc., I think I crossed over into territory where I was probably being snarky and trying to get some of you to admit things I highly disagree with for the wrong reasons.

This thread was intended to be a place of discussion. I should apologize for my lack of humbleness.

I stand by my position, but I shouldn't even get close to demeaning anyone for their positions, no matter how much we disagree.

I love you !

Actually, the fact that you would think to post this comment shows that you are a humble man!!!! I like that!

Keep up the good work!

 

[Major]

Child please!
No country is godly!!!!!!!
When America's sin crosses the line, and it will, she will be judged. But for now there is no comparison between the USA and the Muslim morality - none. The hatred of Israel results in bowls of wrath, America will eventually join the world's hatred of Israel and when that happens we will get iraqed.

I think that you are right on target my brother. IMHO, we.....America has in fact crossed that line and are being judged now.

War in Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, economic collapse in 2002 and 2008, and 911, destructive hurricans and tornadoes and wildfires. It seems to me that God is angry and is speaking loud and clear to us.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I love you !

Actually, the fact that you would think to post this comment shows that you are a humble man!!!! I like that!

Keep up the good work!

Whoa whoa whoa! Don't do that--the purpose is for my ego NOT to get inflated!

I love you too, brother -- God bless you!

 

[Major]

Whoa whoa whoa! Don't do that--the purpose is for my ego NOT to get inflated!

I love you too, brother -- God bless you!

Yea.......but I like the kind replies!!!

 

[sdcougar]

Charles Spurgeon, highly respected in many evangelical and reformed circles, offered clear, biblical exhortations about Christians and war. One quote: "“I wish that Christian men would insist more and more on the unrighteousness of war, believing that Christianity means no sword, no cannon, no bloodshed, and that, if a nation is driven to fight in its own defence, Christianity stands by to weep and to intervene as soon as possible..."
http://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/

Also see on Romans 13 http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/romans-13-in-context-sword-pacifism/

 

[Major]

Charles Spurgeon, highly respected in many evangelical and reformed circles, offered clear, biblical exhortations about Christians and war. One quote: "“I wish that Christian men would insist more and more on the unrighteousness of war, believing that Christianity means no sword, no cannon, no bloodshed, and that, if a nation is driven to fight in its own defence, Christianity stands by to weep and to intervene as soon as possible..."
http://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/

Also see on Romans 13 http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/romans-13-in-context-sword-pacifism/

“And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables” (John 2:14-15).
This was a physically violent response on the part of Jesus. This makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was not a strict pacifist.

 

[Major]

“And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables” (John 2:14-15).
This was a physically violent response on the part of Jesus. This makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was not a strict pacifist.

Hey Bill!!!

I have missed you my brother. How are you doin!