Was Jesus God?

[Major]

Jesus is God, before, during and after His time in the flesh. Yet, one thing I see that the devil pushes, and far too many eagerly equally confess, is that "Jesus lived on earth as God", when in fact, He lived solely as Man. I keep pointing this out because we are to walk like Christ. But if we instead believe more that He lived in the flesh as God, then we can excuse our actions as those of a sinner instead of one who can overcome sin through Jesus and live as He did. We lose our excuse for sin! Jesus said we would do more than He did, John 14:12. Furthermore, it won't be by our power just like the things He did were NOT by HIS power, but by the obedience to the Holy Spirit, by Whom He executed the will of the Father. To quickly point out that Jesus was God allows far too many to dismiss His instructions, and those of Paul's, on how we are to conduct ourselves. What Jesus did in the flesh, we, through His paved path, can do the same. To deny this is to deny the word of God. To deny this is to preach another gospel. To deny this is to send countless people to hell. To deny this is to be a Pharisee. To deny this is to make a theology that suppresses the prompting conscience and power of God, thus one can claim they're "just a simple sinner, saved by grace" and ignore the power, 1 Corinthians 4:20, well that is, if you believe the word of God.

Finally, if Jesus lived as God on earth and not as Man of flesh and blood, then the devil would NOT have lost. See, the only legal way for God to get back what He gave to Adam was for God to fulfill what Adam could not. By doing so Jesus lived 100% in the flesh (without sin) and sinned not. Therefore, when the devil set it up so that man would kill Jesus, even though Jesus laid down His life for us and was NOT murdered, the devil broke the law. He killed an innocent man! Thereby he forfeited his claim to what he got from Adam's forfeit. Don't you see, if Jesus lived as God He could not have fulfilled the law. Can God be tempted!? No, so Jesus had to come solely as a man so He could be tempted! As God, He could not sin. As man, He could have sinned, but chose not to. Jesus had to die as a man, free of sin, so that in the flesh, He conquered life and death.

Therefore, we must walk as Jesus did while He was in the flesh, by obeying the Holy Spirit our Comforter and Teacher. It's much easier to remain a babe. After all, what responsibility does a baby have in their diaper?

With all due respect I will have to disagree with you that when Jesus lived on the earth He was "solely a Man".

I do not mean that he turned into a man in the sense that he stopped being God and started being man. Jesus did not give up any of his divinity in the incarnation. Lots of Bible verse prove that Rather, as one early theologian put it, “Remaining what he was, he became what he was not.” Christ “was not now God minus some elements of his deity, but God plus all that he had made his own by taking manhood to himself.”

Thus, Jesus did not give up any of his divine attributes at the incarnation. He remained in full possession of all of them. For if he were to ever give up any of his divine attributes, he would cease being God.

It is my understanding that the Bible teaches us that Jesus is fully God since he is God the Son incarnate. Which means that everything that is essential to being God is true of Jesus. Jesus is not part of God or one-third of God. Rather, he is fully God.

Colossians 2:9 says............
“For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”.

Now that is either true or it is false but it can not be something in-between....IMO.

It is also important to recognize that when we say that Jesus is man, we do not simply mean that he is partially man. We mean that he is fully human — everything that belongs to the essence of true humanity is true of him. He is just as truly human as the rest of us.

But that is my opinion and no one has to accept it. I give it free of charge.........today.

 

[Abdicate]

With all due respect I will have to disagree with you that when Jesus lived on the earth He was "solely a Man".

I do not mean that he turned into a man in the sense that he stopped being God and started being man. Jesus did not give up any of his divinity in the incarnation. Lots of Bible verse prove that Rather, as one early theologian put it, “Remaining what he was, he became what he was not.” Christ “was not now God minus some elements of his deity, but God plus all that he had made his own by taking manhood to himself.”

Thus, Jesus did not give up any of his divine attributes at the incarnation. He remained in full possession of all of them. For if he were to ever give up any of his divine attributes, he would cease being God.

It is my understanding that the Bible teaches us that Jesus is fully God since he is God the Son incarnate. Which means that everything that is essential to being God is true of Jesus. Jesus is not part of God or one-third of God. Rather, he is fully God.

Colossians 2:9 says............
“For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”.

Now that is either true or it is false but it can not be something in-between....IMO.

It is also important to recognize that when we say that Jesus is man, we do not simply mean that he is partially man. We mean that he is fully human — everything that belongs to the essence of true humanity is true of him. He is just as truly human as the rest of us.

But that is my opinion and no one has to accept it. I give it free of charge.........today.

Funny how you read words I didn't say. You said three times "gave up" whereas I said "chose not". Monumental difference. Furthermore you imply an infraction, yet, my first sentence was "Jesus is God, before, during and after His time in the flesh." Additionally, you also state we disagree, yet you repeated my words. I also note that you missed my entire premise.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

@Major and @Abdicate
And every one else.
This is a forum where we can only write so it is very easy to not understand each other or miss a point all together.

I know people in real time who I don't understand or follow what they say even when standing in front of them.

So I know you both and I know neither of you really have any ought against the other, so I beg of you both to not allow the enemy to trick you into offending one another. I love you both dearly my brothers.

Now then......I hope what I am trying to say comes across in the right light.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[Cturtle]

To all members......
Found this devotional in my email today and thought I would give you all something to read while your contemplating your next responses.
Think hard about this prior to responding to one another, are you responding lIke Jesus would, and His ways, or you responding like the devil and his bunch ....the next step is thread shut down....
Blessings of grace and peace be to you all

When Someone Does You Wrong

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

– Luke 10:19

Someone’s done you wrong! Sooner or later it happens to all of us. Somewhere along the way, we all get hurt or cheated or lied to or abused.

It’s as predictable as it is painful. Yet when it happens most of us find ourselves strangely unprepared. In our outrage, we often cry out to God against the one who wronged us. We ask for justice, or even vengeance, and end up making things tougher on everyone involved—including ourselves.

If that’s been true of you, it’s time you found out how you can put the power of God to work for you the next time someone does you wrong.

Step one: Identify the enemy! Right here’s where the majority of us make our biggest blunder. We mistakenly identify our enemy as the person who hurts us. Don’t waste your energy ranting and raving or plotting and scheming against people who cause you pain. They’re simply under the devil’s influence. Aim your spiritual ammunition at the right target. It’s the devil who’s behind it all. Go after him!

Step two: Fire! Once you’ve pointed your spiritual guns in the right direction, fire! Hit the devil fast and furiously with the Word of God. Use the Name of Jesus and the power that’s been given you as a believer and bind the devil from doing you any further harm in that area. Then move on to the next and most important part of this spiritual battle.

Step three: Pray the prayer of intercession. In Matthew 5:44-45, Jesus gives us these instructions: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.”

Crying out for the vengeance of God to strike like a lightning bolt when someone does us wrong isn’t acting like our Father. Remember, God has great, great mercy. Not just for me and you, but for everyone!

The devil will probably think twice before he bothers you again. Next time someone causes you pain, put the power of God to work for you. Identify the real enemy. Hit him hard with the authority you’ve been given as a believer. Then pray the prayer of intercession.

 

[Major]

Funny how you read words I didn't say. You said three times "gave up" whereas I said "chose not". Monumental difference. Furthermore you imply an infraction, yet, my first sentence was "Jesus is God, before, during and after His time in the flesh." Additionally, you also state we disagree, yet you repeated my words. I also note that you missed my entire premise.

MY apologizes to you my brother. I was responding to one and only one sentence that you posted. If I missed your premise I am very sorry.

Yes, I agree totally with your comments of Jesus as God before, during and after His time in the flesh. I was not speaking to that as all.

Your exact words were.........
"Yet, one thing I see that the devil pushes, and far too many eagerly equally confess, is that "Jesus lived on earth as God", when in fact, He lived solely as Man."

If you are understanding anything other than that then I am at fault. I did not quote you to start a confrontation and II am not going to argue with you.
I was only speaking to your one statement and nothing more. Please do not read into what I said something that is not there.

To anyone who is troubled by this, I did not say that Advocate used the terms "gave up". That was words I USED to describe my thoughts and not what Abdicate said at all.

My only thought is just as I posted. ......
"Thus, Jesus did not give up (My words) any of his divine attributes at the incarnation. He remained in full possession of all of them. For if he were to ever give up(My Words) any of his divine attributes, he would cease being God".

Abdicate did not say "give up". That was the words I used.

God bless you brother and I hope you are not offended and again, If you were, I offer my deepest apology.

 

[Major]

@Major and @Abdicate
And every one else.
This is a forum where we can only write so it is very easy to not understand each other or miss a point all together.

I know people in real time who I don't understand or follow what they say even when standing in front of them.

So I know you both and I know neither of you really have any ought against the other, so I beg of you both to not allow the enemy to trick you into offending one another. I love you both dearly my brothers.

Now then......I hope what I am trying to say comes across in the right light.
Blessings
FCJ

Absolutely Jim. Thanks for your words. I had absolutely no intention of offending Abdicate in any way. He made one comment which was
"Jesus lived on earth as God", when in fact, He lived solely as Man."

That is all I was referring to and nothing more. I did not quote him in any way and what I posted were my comments and I in no way meant that he was saying the words "Jesus GAVE UP".

 

[calvin]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is not merely someone who is a lot like God, or someone who has a very close walk with God. Rather, Jesus is the Most High God himself. Titus 2:13 says that as Christians we are “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

It should be obvious that if Jesus is God, then he has always been God. There was never a time when he became God, for God is eternal. But Jesus has not always been man. The fantastic miracle is that this eternal God became man through the incarnation approximately 2,000 years ago. That’s what the Incarnation was: God the Son becoming man. And that is the great event we celebrate as Christians.

Very ably put Major

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Absolutely Jim. Thanks for your words. I had absolutely no intention of offending Abdicate in any way. He made one comment which was
"Jesus lived on earth as God", when in fact, He lived solely as Man."

That is all I was referring to and nothing more. I did not quote him in any way and what I posted were my comments and I in no way meant that he was saying the words "Jesus GAVE UP".

Hi Major,
I don't believe @Abdicate was offended but I think this stuff happens far to much in any forum.

I myself adopted a saying from one of my Pastors......I am going to say it so many ways you will have to get it. You would think that would be a good thing.

However some folks still found reasons to complain. I mean if one miss understand something said give the other a chance to explain it in another way.

I did this with a couple of fine members some time back and every time I tried to explain what I meant the first time, we'll they kept twisting things and claiming I said things I had not. Then as you remember I earned myself a time out because they reported me pushing my beliefs on others.

Why is it so hard for some folks to grasp that if it offends you then you may have read or understood it wrong.

Oh well, people will walk after the flesh in any place.

But again I do Not believe @Abdicate got mad or anything just as I do not believe you did either
Blessing
To the both of you
FCJ

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

 

[Abdicate]

@Major, all is well. God bless brother.

 

[Major]

@Major, all is well. God bless brother.

That is good to here.

 

[Major]

Very ably put Major

Coming from you my brother, that means everything to me. Thank you and blessings to you.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for your responses guys and gals, but i'm not a JW and I'm not a member of any other denomination either; I'm a 'Freelance Christian' which means I'm free to think for myself and don't have to toe the line of any denomination or let them do my thinking for me..
Another question to toss into the playpen- If Jesus was God, why didn't he say so straight out, instead of calling himself the Son of God?

Hi. The Jews took offence chiefly because He called Himself God. He was crystal clear in John 8:58 and this angered the Pharisees.

John 8:58 Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born I am.

John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one. 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

 

[KingJ]

Call me a wimp, but I don't think I dare argue with God..-
“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (Matt 3:17).
In Gethsemane Jesus showed his human-ness when he said-
“My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done" (Matt 26:42), so I don't think he was talking to himself..

Firstly, Lets accept that a human brain cannot fully grasp how a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago rose from the dead and is God of the universe. Not suggesting we can't come close. Jesus did kind of change the world. There are two key scriptures on this issue that we have to grasp. 1 Cor 12:3 and Matt 16:16-17. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear that one cannot call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit (IE God needs to reveal Jesus as Lord to us / give us faith for this belief). Matt 16:16-17 is very interesting indeed. As Peter was the disciple with the most faith. Yet he needed God to reveal Jesus to him.

As to your question. What we have to do is take all scripture. Confusion only comes in when we take half. IE Jesus prayed to God + Jesus called Himself God.

I believe the secret to understanding this lies in properly grasping seven verses. 1. Rom 6:23 Wages of sin is death, 2. Isaiah 53:7 Lead like a lamb to the slaughter and 3. 1 John 4:8 God is love, 4. Eph 1:7 Redemption through His blood and 5. John 15:13 Greatest love is to give your life 6. Prov 16:1-4 God is sovereign and 7. Psalm 115:3 God does whatever pleases Him.

So without reading the bible in ''2d'' lets add this all together and try grasp God and what transpired.

God is sovereign but He is '''''also''''' love. IE He is as good as He is great. IE When He made us with high intelligence He knew that we would sin. It comes with the creation we are. So a good God knew He would have to lay His life down / shed His blood / make Himself a lamb to the slaughter for us. This is why Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth. Jesus praying to God, Jesus fasting in the wilderness, Jesus asking if there was a way for the cup to removed from Him (not wanting the pain) is all evidence of God wanting / choosing to be a genuine lamb to the slaughter. IE It is all evidence of God being good. If God was evil, we would not be having this discussion. Imagine Jesus walked around carrying on like God VS praying to God. Imagine Jesus refused to fast because he could live perfectly fine without food. Imagine Jesus was fearless of pain because He could not feel it. These were all possibilities as scripture clearly says He could call a legion of angels at anytime. We would all wonder why He came in flesh in the first place. The significance of the cross is that God became as us to take our place. We have to grasp that.

 

[Abdicate]

A couple more points to ponder- Jesus often retired to be alone to pray to God, so who was he praying to, himself?
Also when his disciples said "teach us to pray", he began with- "Our Father which art in heaven.." which indicates God above is the recipient of prayer.
But anyway, is it really important whether anybody believes he was or wasn't God?

It's more of an understanding that Jesus didn't know everything being a man. He chose to set aside all His authority and only live as a man by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and what the information the Spirit gave Him, Heb 5:8; Mat 24:36. If you fully grasp this then you'll understand what it truly means to "live by the Spirit" and to "be in Christ." See the issue is that people see the power Jesus lived by and attribute to Him being God (and He is). But while on earth, born of a woman, He was fully man and while also fully God, He limited His access to only what the Holy Spirit told Him. Thereby, as a man, He fulfilled the Law in the flesh. When He calls us to follow Him, it's to be and do exactly what He did here on earth as a man. He gave us the Holy Spirit after He was glorified and we NOW have the same access that He did. Therefore, by His own words, we'll be able to do more that He did. To get to that point, though, we have to learn obedience, just as He did. Most, including myself, are not that mature. Have you raised anyone from the dead? Neither have I, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means we're not learned enough or mature enough.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

It's more of an understanding that Jesus didn't know everything being a man. He chose to set aside all His authority and only live as a man by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and what the information the Spirit gave Him, Heb 5:8; Mat 24:36. If you fully grasp this then you'll understand what it truly means to "live by the Spirit" and to "be in Christ." See the issue is that people see the power Jesus lived by and attribute to Him being God (and He is). But while on earth, born of a woman, He was fully man and while also fully God, He limited His access to only what the Holy Spirit told Him. Thereby, as a man, He fulfilled the Law in the flesh. When He calls us to follow Him, it's to be and do exactly what He did here on earth as a man. He gave us the Holy Spirit after He was glorified and we NOW have the same access that He did. Therefore, by His own words, we'll be able to do more that He did. To get to that point, though, we have to learn obedience, just as He did. Most, including myself, are not that mature. Have you raised anyone from the dead? Neither have I, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means we're not learned enough or mature enough.

Nicely Put @Abdicate Nicely Put !!!

 

[Major]

Nicely Put @Abdicate Nicely Put !!!

This is not a new thought. It has been the center of Christian teaching for about 2000 years. I understand what Abdicate and you are saying and I must again say that I do not agree with the teaching that Jesus gave up His diety to walk upon the earth as God.

1 Timothy 3:16......
"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He [God] appeared in a body [or in the flesh], was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

To me, that seems to nail it down.

I believe, without any doubt, that .................

1. Jesus was God before His physical manifestation on earth,
2. He was God as He walked as a man on earth, and
3. He continues to be God, and always will be God—both co-existent with, and at the right hand of, the Father in heaven.

Many Christians believe and have taught that Jesus “gave up” His deity while on earth. I am however not one of them. Just one reason I disagree with this is because we see in Psalms 49:7..........
“No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him...”.

What is the reality of that Bible verse?????

It means that If Jesus were only a man, His sacrifice would not have been enough; only a perfect, sinless God Himself could carry enough value to ransom all of mankind from the consequences and penalty of sin.

Secondly, Jesus retained the Authority, during His life on earth, which the Father had given Him....
Matthew 7:29.........................
"for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Matthew 21:24............
"But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things".

Luke 4:36................
"Then they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

John 10:18..........
" No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father".

The point is that He would not have been able to give this same Authority, as well as the Power which accompanies it, to His twelve disciples as is stated in Matt. 10:1 if He temporarily had “forfeited” His deity. Jesus never has ceased to be God IMHO.

It is always a blessing to talk with you and I pray that God will continue to bless you.

 

[Cturtle]

This is not a new thought. It has been the center of Christian teaching for about 2000 years. I understand what Abdicate and you are saying and I must again say that I do not agree with the teaching that Jesus gave up His diety to walk upon the earth as God.

1 Timothy 3:16......
"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He [God] appeared in a body [or in the flesh], was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

To me, that seems to nail it down.

I believe, without any doubt, that .................

1. Jesus was God before His physical manifestation on earth,
2. He was God as He walked as a man on earth, and
3. He continues to be God, and always will be God—both co-existent with, and at the right hand of, the Father in heaven.

Many Christians believe and have taught that Jesus “gave up” His deity while on earth. I am however not one of them. Just one reason I disagree with this is because we see in Psalms 49:7..........
“No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him...”.

What is the reality of that Bible verse?????

It means that If Jesus were only a man, His sacrifice would not have been enough; only a perfect, sinless God Himself could carry enough value to ransom all of mankind from the consequences and penalty of sin.

Secondly, Jesus retained the Authority, during His life on earth, which the Father had given Him....
Matthew 7:29.........................
"for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Matthew 21:24............
"But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things".

Luke 4:36................
"Then they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

John 10:18..........
" No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father".

The point is that He would not have been able to give this same Authority, as well as the Power which accompanies it, to His twelve disciples as is stated in Matt. 10:1 if He temporarily had “forfeited” His deity. Jesus never has ceased to be God IMHO.

It is always a blessing to talk with you and I pray that God will continue to bless you.

So what do you do with these verses?

Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!
Philippians 2:6‭-‬8 AMPC
http://bible.com/8/php.2.6-8.AMPC

In my opinion and I believe God's Word supports this...it was all about God working through Him, so God got the glory, not Him. For in obedience He gained exaltation and became the author and finisher of our faith...and is the perfect example of how we as believers can walk hand in hand with the Holy Spirit, and be just like Him.

Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9‭-‬11 AMPC
http://bible.com/8/php.2.9-11.AMPC

Blessings

 

[calvin]

This is not a new thought. It has been the center of Christian teaching for about 2000 years. I understand what Abdicate and you are saying and I must again say that I do not agree with the teaching that Jesus gave up His diety to walk upon the earth as God.

1 Timothy 3:16......
"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He [God] appeared in a body [or in the flesh], was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

To me, that seems to nail it down.

I believe, without any doubt, that .................

1. Jesus was God before His physical manifestation on earth,
2. He was God as He walked as a man on earth, and
3. He continues to be God, and always will be God—both co-existent with, and at the right hand of, the Father in heaven.

Many Christians believe and have taught that Jesus “gave up” His deity while on earth. I am however not one of them. Just one reason I disagree with this is because we see in Psalms 49:7..........
“No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him...”.

What is the reality of that Bible verse?????

It means that If Jesus were only a man, His sacrifice would not have been enough; only a perfect, sinless God Himself could carry enough value to ransom all of mankind from the consequences and penalty of sin.

Secondly, Jesus retained the Authority, during His life on earth, which the Father had given Him....
Matthew 7:29.........................
"for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Matthew 21:24............
"But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things".

Luke 4:36................
"Then they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

John 10:18..........
" No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father".

The point is that He would not have been able to give this same Authority, as well as the Power which accompanies it, to His twelve disciples as is stated in Matt. 10:1 if He temporarily had “forfeited” His deity. Jesus never has ceased to be God IMHO.

It is always a blessing to talk with you and I pray that God will continue to bless you.

Major you are of course correct in your belief.
Matt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). Isaiah 7:14 (the witness of two establishes truth)
Unless there were several virgins conceiving and bearing sons, Mary holds that unique honour, so Jesus is indeed God with us. But of course God had to set aside some ( a lot) of His Power and Majesty, after all said and done God is greater that the entire created universe and the human body was not created to contain infinity, but only to contain the image of the infinite God.
keep up the good work my fiend.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

This topic has been well discussed and, in the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained.

The thread will now be closed.

If a member feels they have something to add which would advance the discussion, they are encouraged to contact a member of the Moderator/Administrator staff.