Was Paul Crazeeeee?

[Major]

It is actually quite simple.

Faith in Christ brings salvation - the outworking of salvation is good works.

Good works, holy deeds, righteous living are as a result of true salvation - do we always get it right no. Hence Paul's struggle with the flesh. We are not perfected the instant we are saved - we are changed slowly (sometimes fast) through the work of the Holy Spirit - called sanctification.

True Christians hate it when they sin, non Christians are oblivious to sin. What is the difference between non Christians and Chrisitans - both are sinner but one party is declared righteous through the sacrifice of Christ and is seen as sinless.

True Christians do works because they express mercy and justice in the image of Christ, they are not saved by works, that was accomplished the moment they put their faith in Jesus.

Very well said my friend!

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Trust you??/

Why would I trust you

Not even a response that is relevant to the claim I made. Totally a gratuitous "take a shot" comment. And when I point this out to you you just cry foul. You are an interesting study.

when you havent even answered the question posed if you are a saved man or not.

I'm sorry, I scrolled back and see no question if I am saved. You'll have to show me. But I'm sure even if it's not there, you'll still use that as some justification to make personal snipes not relevant to the topic.

Some one else even claimed that you are not saved. He seemed to know a lot about you so I am still wondering why I would trust you.

Must be God. That's the only one that would know. You certainly don't know if yourself is saved. Not if GOD is LORD. That's His province. By any definition you would have for saved, I'd meet that criteria.

Talk?

If all you wanted was to talk then why this............"

"BTW, A wiccan can grasp the earth Goddess, or Cernuno, or, etc.... does that make them more right than me or you?"​

​

Now is that discussing or you playing a game?​

​

If you are only wanting to discuss things then why say.............​

"I'm working hard at keeping it conversational with you."​

​

As for this, I already answered that. I made the point about the wiccan in response to something you said. I explained why at the time. It's an analogy, and it's a true analogy. You evaded it then, and tried to make issue of it. So I tracked down the whole conversation and posted it again to make it clear. You still ignore the point being made and try hard to make a personal issue out of it.

That IS WORKING HARD to discuss with you. But you can't help but ignore the points in the conversation when opportunity arises you feel you can make a personal jab at someone. If that isn't difficult I don't know what is.

I didn't ask you to trust me in general up above, but you tried to depict it as such. It's a strawman. It's as intellectually dishonest as hell is hot.
I explained why my faith's view on the topic required a lot more faith than yours does, I explained it, you ignored all of that and went out of your way to take a personal jab.
I showed you, that your response, "It makes sense to me" wasn't an answer and was evasive, by showing you that the same standard of logic would justify wicca.

You tried to make that a personal shot.

You have nothing but angst. Talking with you is a waste of time.

I hope you find peace, be well.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

It is actually quite simple.

Of course it is.

Faith in Christ brings salvation - the outworking of salvation is good works.[/qutoe] agreed.

Good works, holy deeds, righteous living are as a result of true salvation - do we always get it right no. Hence Paul's struggle with the flesh.

Paul wasn't in the flesh, the IF in those verses of the struggles show it wasn't him struggling, see vs 16 and 5 and 20 or 22 one or the other. But other than that, I'm agreeing here too.

We are not perfected the instant we are saved - we are changed slowly (sometimes fast) through the work of the Holy Spirit - called sanctification.

Agree again.

True Christians hate it when they sin, non Christians are oblivious to sin.

Not in scripture anywhere. But we could hope it was true. If it were, there would be less persecution agianst God's word of the GLBT community.

]What is the difference between non Christians and Chrisitans - both are sinner but one party is declared righteous through the sacrifice of Christ and is seen as sinless.

Ok,

True Christians do works because they express mercy and justice in the image of Christ, they are not saved by works, that was accomplished the moment they put their faith in Jesus.

True Xians is a made up word with no meaning other than the person speaking it thinks they are a 'true Xian', and thus the standard for the term is themselves. I'm not that arrogant. But, scripture says the reason they would do those things has nothing to do with their efforts to be in the image of Christ, but would be because God has changed their hearts from stone to flesh. It's not about man's desires at all.

So, you would agree then, that if a man doesn't have the works, they aren't saved, right?

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Which now that the thread is hijacked, to redirect....

Paul said in vs 5 he wasn't in the flesh.

Later, you guys seem to think he was discussing how he struggled with things caused by still BEING in the flesh.

was he whack? Or is there a reconciliation.

 

[Kevin]

What exactly is your definition of a "true Xian"?

Are you claiming to be the "enlightened one" a mythylological creature of Eastern religion?

To answer your statements above:

1)
1Jn 3:6
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.
1Jn 3:7
Children, don't be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself.
1Jn 3:8
Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done.
1Jn 3:9
God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning.
1Jn 3:10
You can tell God's children from the devil's children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.
2) Works does not need to be done for salvation - the thief on the cross had no opportunity to do good works.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

How do you claim anything by asking a question.
The question was "is paul crazy", not what is a true christian, is the point to explore here. I wouldn't say true Xian anyway because there is no such thing, it's a term that changes for every person that says it. So of 100 people discussing "true Xians" you get 105 different meanings from them.

But, I guess you believe a True Xian is one who can not sin anymore. I'm ok with that, but I think the christian can still sin, and it's a mature christian that doesn't sin. That's what John says at least.

What exactly is your definition of a "true Xian"?

Are you claiming to be the "enlightened one" a mythylological creature of Eastern religion?

To answer your statements above:

1)
1Jn 3:6
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.
1Jn 3:7
Children, don't be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself.
1Jn 3:8
Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done.
1Jn 3:9
God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning.
1Jn 3:10
You can tell God's children from the devil's children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.
2) Works does not need to be done for salvation - the thief on the cross had no opportunity to do good works.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

And no one wants to touch if Paul was crazy for saying he was perfect, and he wasn't perfect in the same breath.

OR saying he was not in the flesh, but the flesh still caused him grief and tempted him?

They are 180 degree contradictory statements, and it causes no one a second thought. I find that...... shallow?

I'm in the water but I'm not wet.

 

[covered_by_grace]

Paul was far from crazy, imo. He was a realist, make-no-bones, shoot'em straight, type of person.

His arguments and comments are hard to grasp sometimes because they need to be digested, not just tasted. Most of the people today who call themselves Christians do not wish to take the time to meditate on the truths contained in the Bible and would rather just read the verses, choose to think it doesn't apply to them, and therefore never really gain understanding. Proverbs 18:2

And, even if some do venture in and attempt to reconcile them, logic is given a higher priority than faith. 1 Corinthians 1:21, 25

God's provisions of grace and mercy are really very plain and ARE NOT the EXCLUSIONARY property of the elect. Matthew 5:45
John 3:16
Psalm 145 (especially Ps. 145:9)

But, back to the OP:

Paul encountered the living, resurrected Jesus the Christ in His Godly Form. Had that actually happened to me, I think people would think I'd be a bit off, too, because HOW do you do anything differently than Paul did? He explained what he knew. If others didn't get it, he tried to explain it again. He fully EXPERIENCED his life and spiritual walk towards "his prize" with all transparency and sometimes that stuff didn't make a whole-lotta sense to the ones who would prefer to keep it within "the norm."

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I like your answer.

It appears to me you aren't adverse to testing and researching things either. That can ONLY be a good thing.

You rock.

And I don't mean like a fat guy either.

 

[Servant in San Jose]

I think it's pretty simple as well.

That's why when someone hyper reacts to seeing the word WORKS, and starts spouting off verses that you can't be saved by works, and they quote the first two, leave the third out of their conversation so they don't have to face it, that I find them not very honest in the discussion. Wouldn't you agree?

You aren't saved by works.

But if you aren't doing the works you probably aren't saved.
For, that which saves you, manifests in works.

That poses a great question!!
What are these "works"?

Also, though we are indeed saved unto good works, the bible clearly says we are to walk IN them, not perform them.
This is because even and especially "works" in order to be considered approved by God, must also be performed by the Holy Spirit, otherwise it is yet again just more works of the flesh.

According to the bible, the Works of God are these; that you believe INTO the One He sent, the Son of God (Christ), the "life giving" Spirit.

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in (eis 1519-meaning the process of filling a vessel) Him whom He sent.”

That's the ONLY work we are capable of and even that is a gift!
Praise God! Because once again, its not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.
Joh 3:30 We decrease, He increases.
We present our bodies as a living sacrifice, which is Holy and ACCEPTABLE to God and is our REASONABLE act of worship/service.
When Paul said to Timothy, Present yourself to God a workman who need not be ashamed", Timothy knew that meant His Body for the Work of the Master and we should too. We are to put to DEATH our members. We are to be DEAD to the WORKS of the flesh.
So, the only way to WORK in His service is by His Power, as the flesh is enmity with God.
ALL carnal thinking is enmity with God and is NOT subject to God, cor indeed can it be.

Sorry if it seems i'm rambling, but haven't been on boards for quite sometime and it's like a fire in my bones!

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Servant,

I enjoy your thoughts. Following your answer helps me understand some people's arguments better from my past. Please don't be offended that I think your answer misses the target. although many parts I agree wholeheartedly with.

How can a person claim to be a servant, if they don't serve anyone but themselves by believing? Indeed what do those works look like. I think THE CHRIST, delivers a barrage of examples. the one i use the most is the sheep and goats in matt 25. I like Ibecause the ones doing the works go to heaven and it is the most challenging for folks that knee jerk to the topic. The examples are charitous acts, service to the needy, charity, providence. They aren't simply believing. They are acting. The very word for love in love your neighbor requires that demonstration. That action. The largest theological issue in his day, left the greatest nt apologist saying theology wasn't as important as faith working through love. Coat and shirt. Feed the poor. Care for the widows, etc....

If you never heard the words, Jesus and/or God, but you did the loving works, you would be saved. Know why? Not because of the works, but because of the love behind them that caused them. 1 j 4:16-18 without love, you fail. Period. So, we better get it right.

Now, we totally agree that it is by His power, so I suspect my comments look a lot unnecessary when you read this. But Ibeat this glue shaped into a horse for a reason. Some people are dying in the semantics and pedantics on this topic. I got booted for being catholic (my rcc friends rolled) because I gave vss and reasoning that demand we do the works we were saved to do.
So, someone needs all of this. Maybe not you.

Love determines if we are His, it directs our maturity on earth, and it is supposed to make us as spiritually mature as HE WAS ON EARTH. We better engage.

God does the work, but we are His instruments for righteousness. Errrr, we execute His works. Moses lifted a magic stick to part the red sea? God parted the red sea? Either way, moses had to hold the stick above his head. Moses had work to do, for God to do HIS work.

Works, are things that provide for your neighbor, brother, and enemy. So spake the mighty kjv of the Bible..... and every other translation.

 

[Servant in San Jose]

My point is "believing into the One He sent" will produce the works you describe above.

For the past 11 months i have been caregiver to a friend with diabetes who has had a very rocky relationship with God and intermittent heavy illegal drug use.
God brought me here and put me in the home of this curt angry man to love him and to care for him.
Because of his diabetes, his eyesight all but gone combined with stomach issues that produced mostly diarrhea at each bathroom visit, leaving it not only in but on the bowl, quite disgusting.

i work 40-60 hours a week at my business and when i came home i cared for him.

Last thursday he stopped being curt and actually began to say please and thank you.
Each night a drift off to one preacher or another i enjoy listening to and last thursday morning he mentioned what i listen to and said "I really like that stuff you listen to at night."
He was quite obviously changed from that point.

Saturday i came home and found him dead of a heart attack.

God told me He sent me here to do exactly what i did and rescued this man from eternal torment.
i never preached at him, but would offer to take him to church. i was never judgmental when he decided to drink heavily or use drugs.
NONE OF THIS IS ME IN THE FLESH!

But i know this, God used me to show His love to save this man.

Blessings

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Nah, it sounds just right to me.

 

[Abba's child]

Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.


Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
=========================================
Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,
....

Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,
...

=========================================

When you see verses like this, how do you go about reconciling them? Or do you bother? One common reaction is to accept the verse that suits our needs, and ignore the other, schluffing it off to the side.

You see this a lot in a WORKS conversation. Someone will quote Eph 2:8,9, but leave vs 10 that says you are saved to do works, out of the chat.

So, let's discuss either how we reconcile them in general, or how we have reconciled Paul speaking from both sides here....

I hope I am, in some part, speaking to what you pose here...but, here goes.
Romans 7:5, transliterated Greek:
hote gar émen en té sarki=while indeed {we were} in the flesh
Romans 7:14, transliterated Greek:
égo de sarkinos eimi=I however fleshly am

So, in one verse we have Paul saying "we were in the flesh", in the other we have him saying "I am fleshly".
Is is possible that little preposition "in" in v.5 makes a difference? I know from my teensy study of Greek that prepositions have much larger implications in Greek than they do in English. (not that there isn't a pretty big difference between saying I am under a table and saying I am concerning a table...)
(I think it's important to note that "sarx", the root word for flesh isn't always derogatory. In John 1:14 we are told "the Word became flesh, and 1 John 2 tells us that "Jesus has come in the flesh". Or, maybe it's just important to me. )


As to a possible problem with the verse from Philippians, I must be more dense than usual this evening, because I honestly don't see the problem. If anything, I see these thoughts as harmonious. Can you help me?

 

[Xian Pugilist]

SARX means flesh, sometimes it refers to the bodies flesh, sometimes what the NIV calls sinful nature.

In this case paul is already in his flesh, so I'm going with sinful nature.

In one verse he is in the flesh, apparently, and in the other him and others are not in the flesh anymore. So, is Paul in the flesh, or not in the flesh....?

In romans 7:5 paul is not in the flesh, but later in romans 7 he is discussing how he still is in the flesh, which is it?

 

[Abba's child]

I guess I stated my thoughts poorly...but even the NASB (my fave translation) distinguishes between the two with the change in preposition, from "in" v.5, to "of" v.14. I could offer a dozen different commentators opinions, but I don't think you'd appreciate that. (by which I mean no offense!) I'll consider this to see if there's anything more I have to offer you regarding these verses. Busy day--I told my 17 yo I'd play games with her tonight. And I love playing board games with my kids!

 

[Xian Pugilist]

The of in 14 is not there, its added from the word for sarx. But I don't think it would do anything to the interpretation? I think its diffwerent because he came at the same topic from a different angle..... he presents the two natures, sarx/pneuma as one you are enslaved to. So, you belong to them, see the word for accord in honda 8, errr romans 8. So in the sense of in, or of, in this case I don't see how it matters.... but that might only mean I don't track what you see well yet..

 

[calvin]

Hmmm yes well σάρξ in verse Rom 7:5. is a noun. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
In Rom 7:14. σαρκικός is an adjective...it adds to the pronoun 'I' to which it refers. "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Not sure what is under debate here, but V14 is not V5 restated.
Not sure why the Esv associated the article with an adjective...........but O well (sigh)

 

[chrisstavrous]

The bible is not a scientific book you need to dissect. It is a gospel of love based on faith and human impression.