Very well said my friend!
Was Paul Crazeeeee?
- Thread starter Xian Pugilist
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Very well said my friend!
Xian Pugilist
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Xian Pugilist
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Xian Pugilist
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Which now that the thread is hijacked, to redirect....
Paul said in vs 5 he wasn't in the flesh.
Later, you guys seem to think he was discussing how he struggled with things caused by still BEING in the flesh.
was he whack? Or is there a reconciliation.
Paul said in vs 5 he wasn't in the flesh.
Later, you guys seem to think he was discussing how he struggled with things caused by still BEING in the flesh.
was he whack? Or is there a reconciliation.
What exactly is your definition of a "true Xian"?
Are you claiming to be the "enlightened one" a mythylological creature of Eastern religion?
To answer your statements above:
1)
1Jn 3:6
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.
1Jn 3:7
Children, don't be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself.
1Jn 3:8
Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done.
1Jn 3:9
God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning.
1Jn 3:10
You can tell God's children from the devil's children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.
2) Works does not need to be done for salvation - the thief on the cross had no opportunity to do good works.
Are you claiming to be the "enlightened one" a mythylological creature of Eastern religion?
To answer your statements above:
1)
1Jn 3:6
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.
1Jn 3:7
Children, don't be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself.
1Jn 3:8
Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done.
1Jn 3:9
God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning.
1Jn 3:10
You can tell God's children from the devil's children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.
2) Works does not need to be done for salvation - the thief on the cross had no opportunity to do good works.
Xian Pugilist
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How do you claim anything by asking a question.
The question was "is paul crazy", not what is a true christian, is the point to explore here. I wouldn't say true Xian anyway because there is no such thing, it's a term that changes for every person that says it. So of 100 people discussing "true Xians" you get 105 different meanings from them.
But, I guess you believe a True Xian is one who can not sin anymore. I'm ok with that, but I think the christian can still sin, and it's a mature christian that doesn't sin. That's what John says at least.
The question was "is paul crazy", not what is a true christian, is the point to explore here. I wouldn't say true Xian anyway because there is no such thing, it's a term that changes for every person that says it. So of 100 people discussing "true Xians" you get 105 different meanings from them.
But, I guess you believe a True Xian is one who can not sin anymore. I'm ok with that, but I think the christian can still sin, and it's a mature christian that doesn't sin. That's what John says at least.
Xian Pugilist
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And no one wants to touch if Paul was crazy for saying he was perfect, and he wasn't perfect in the same breath.
OR saying he was not in the flesh, but the flesh still caused him grief and tempted him?
They are 180 degree contradictory statements, and it causes no one a second thought. I find that...... shallow?
I'm in the water but I'm not wet.
OR saying he was not in the flesh, but the flesh still caused him grief and tempted him?
They are 180 degree contradictory statements, and it causes no one a second thought. I find that...... shallow?
I'm in the water but I'm not wet.
Paul was far from crazy, imo. He was a realist, make-no-bones, shoot'em straight, type of person. 
His arguments and comments are hard to grasp sometimes because they need to be digested, not just tasted. Most of the people today who call themselves Christians do not wish to take the time to meditate on the truths contained in the Bible and would rather just read the verses, choose to think it doesn't apply to them, and therefore never really gain understanding. Proverbs 18:2
And, even if some do venture in and attempt to reconcile them, logic is given a higher priority than faith. 1 Corinthians 1:21, 25
God's provisions of grace and mercy are really very plain and ARE NOT the EXCLUSIONARY property of the elect. Matthew 5:45
John 3:16
Psalm 145 (especially Ps. 145:9)
But, back to the OP:
Paul encountered the living, resurrected Jesus the Christ in His Godly Form. Had that actually happened to me, I think people would think I'd be a bit off, too, because HOW do you do anything differently than Paul did? He explained what he knew. If others didn't get it, he tried to explain it again. He fully EXPERIENCED his life and spiritual walk towards "his prize" with all transparency and sometimes that stuff didn't make a whole-lotta sense to the ones who would prefer to keep it within "the norm."
His arguments and comments are hard to grasp sometimes because they need to be digested, not just tasted. Most of the people today who call themselves Christians do not wish to take the time to meditate on the truths contained in the Bible and would rather just read the verses, choose to think it doesn't apply to them, and therefore never really gain understanding. Proverbs 18:2
And, even if some do venture in and attempt to reconcile them, logic is given a higher priority than faith. 1 Corinthians 1:21, 25
God's provisions of grace and mercy are really very plain and ARE NOT the EXCLUSIONARY property of the elect. Matthew 5:45
John 3:16
Psalm 145 (especially Ps. 145:9)
But, back to the OP:
Paul encountered the living, resurrected Jesus the Christ in His Godly Form. Had that actually happened to me, I think people would think I'd be a bit off, too, because HOW do you do anything differently than Paul did? He explained what he knew. If others didn't get it, he tried to explain it again. He fully EXPERIENCED his life and spiritual walk towards "his prize" with all transparency and sometimes that stuff didn't make a whole-lotta sense to the ones who would prefer to keep it within "the norm."
Xian Pugilist
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I like your answer.
It appears to me you aren't adverse to testing and researching things either. That can ONLY be a good thing.
You rock.
And I don't mean like a fat guy either.
It appears to me you aren't adverse to testing and researching things either. That can ONLY be a good thing.
You rock.
And I don't mean like a fat guy either.
That poses a great question!!
What are these "works"?
Also, though we are indeed saved unto good works, the bible clearly says we are to walk IN them, not perform them.
This is because even and especially "works" in order to be considered approved by God, must also be performed by the Holy Spirit, otherwise it is yet again just more works of the flesh.
According to the bible, the Works of God are these; that you believe INTO the One He sent, the Son of God (Christ), the "life giving" Spirit.
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in (eis 1519-meaning the process of filling a vessel) Him whom He sent.”
That's the ONLY work we are capable of and even that is a gift!
Praise God! Because once again, its not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.
Joh 3:30 We decrease, He increases.
We present our bodies as a living sacrifice, which is Holy and ACCEPTABLE to God and is our REASONABLE act of worship/service.
When Paul said to Timothy, Present yourself to God a workman who need not be ashamed", Timothy knew that meant His Body for the Work of the Master and we should too. We are to put to DEATH our members. We are to be DEAD to the WORKS of the flesh.
So, the only way to WORK in His service is by His Power, as the flesh is enmity with God.
ALL carnal thinking is enmity with God and is NOT subject to God, cor indeed can it be.
Sorry if it seems i'm rambling, but haven't been on boards for quite sometime and it's like a fire in my bones!
Xian Pugilist
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Servant,
I enjoy your thoughts. Following your answer helps me understand some people's arguments better from my past. Please don't be offended that I think your answer misses the target. although many parts I agree wholeheartedly with.
How can a person claim to be a servant, if they don't serve anyone but themselves by believing? Indeed what do those works look like. I think THE CHRIST, delivers a barrage of examples. the one i use the most is the sheep and goats in matt 25. I like Ibecause the ones doing the works go to heaven and it is the most challenging for folks that knee jerk to the topic. The examples are charitous acts, service to the needy, charity, providence. They aren't simply believing. They are acting. The very word for love in love your neighbor requires that demonstration. That action. The largest theological issue in his day, left the greatest nt apologist saying theology wasn't as important as faith working through love. Coat and shirt. Feed the poor. Care for the widows, etc....
If you never heard the words, Jesus and/or God, but you did the loving works, you would be saved. Know why? Not because of the works, but because of the love behind them that caused them. 1 j 4:16-18 without love, you fail. Period. So, we better get it right.
Now, we totally agree that it is by His power, so I suspect my comments look a lot unnecessary when you read this. But Ibeat this glue shaped into a horse for a reason. Some people are dying in the semantics and pedantics on this topic. I got booted for being catholic (my rcc friends rolled) because I gave vss and reasoning that demand we do the works we were saved to do.
So, someone needs all of this. Maybe not you.
Love determines if we are His, it directs our maturity on earth, and it is supposed to make us as spiritually mature as HE WAS ON EARTH. We better engage.
God does the work, but we are His instruments for righteousness. Errrr, we execute His works. Moses lifted a magic stick to part the red sea? God parted the red sea? Either way, moses had to hold the stick above his head. Moses had work to do, for God to do HIS work.
Works, are things that provide for your neighbor, brother, and enemy. So spake the mighty kjv of the Bible..... and every other translation.
I enjoy your thoughts. Following your answer helps me understand some people's arguments better from my past. Please don't be offended that I think your answer misses the target.
although many parts I agree wholeheartedly with. How can a person claim to be a servant, if they don't serve anyone but themselves by believing? Indeed what do those works look like. I think THE CHRIST, delivers a barrage of examples. the one i use the most is the sheep and goats in matt 25. I like Ibecause the ones doing the works go to heaven and it is the most challenging for folks that knee jerk to the topic. The examples are charitous acts, service to the needy, charity, providence. They aren't simply believing. They are acting. The very word for love in love your neighbor requires that demonstration. That action. The largest theological issue in his day, left the greatest nt apologist saying theology wasn't as important as faith working through love. Coat and shirt. Feed the poor. Care for the widows, etc....
If you never heard the words, Jesus and/or God, but you did the loving works, you would be saved. Know why? Not because of the works, but because of the love behind them that caused them. 1 j 4:16-18 without love, you fail. Period. So, we better get it right.
Now, we totally agree that it is by His power, so I suspect my comments look a lot unnecessary when you read this. But Ibeat this glue shaped into a horse for a reason. Some people are dying in the semantics and pedantics on this topic. I got booted for being catholic (my rcc friends rolled) because I gave vss and reasoning that demand we do the works we were saved to do.
So, someone needs all of this. Maybe not you.
Love determines if we are His, it directs our maturity on earth, and it is supposed to make us as spiritually mature as HE WAS ON EARTH. We better engage.
God does the work, but we are His instruments for righteousness. Errrr, we execute His works. Moses lifted a magic stick to part the red sea? God parted the red sea? Either way, moses had to hold the stick above his head. Moses had work to do, for God to do HIS work.
Works, are things that provide for your neighbor, brother, and enemy. So spake the mighty kjv of the Bible..... and every other translation.
My point is "believing into the One He sent" will produce the works you describe above.
For the past 11 months i have been caregiver to a friend with diabetes who has had a very rocky relationship with God and intermittent heavy illegal drug use.
God brought me here and put me in the home of this curt angry man to love him and to care for him.
Because of his diabetes, his eyesight all but gone combined with stomach issues that produced mostly diarrhea at each bathroom visit, leaving it not only in but on the bowl, quite disgusting.
i work 40-60 hours a week at my business and when i came home i cared for him.
Last thursday he stopped being curt and actually began to say please and thank you.
Each night a drift off to one preacher or another i enjoy listening to and last thursday morning he mentioned what i listen to and said "I really like that stuff you listen to at night."
He was quite obviously changed from that point.
Saturday i came home and found him dead of a heart attack.
God told me He sent me here to do exactly what i did and rescued this man from eternal torment.
i never preached at him, but would offer to take him to church. i was never judgmental when he decided to drink heavily or use drugs.
NONE OF THIS IS ME IN THE FLESH!
But i know this, God used me to show His love to save this man.
Blessings
For the past 11 months i have been caregiver to a friend with diabetes who has had a very rocky relationship with God and intermittent heavy illegal drug use.
God brought me here and put me in the home of this curt angry man to love him and to care for him.
Because of his diabetes, his eyesight all but gone combined with stomach issues that produced mostly diarrhea at each bathroom visit, leaving it not only in but on the bowl, quite disgusting.
i work 40-60 hours a week at my business and when i came home i cared for him.
Last thursday he stopped being curt and actually began to say please and thank you.
Each night a drift off to one preacher or another i enjoy listening to and last thursday morning he mentioned what i listen to and said "I really like that stuff you listen to at night."
He was quite obviously changed from that point.
Saturday i came home and found him dead of a heart attack.
God told me He sent me here to do exactly what i did and rescued this man from eternal torment.
i never preached at him, but would offer to take him to church. i was never judgmental when he decided to drink heavily or use drugs.
NONE OF THIS IS ME IN THE FLESH!
But i know this, God used me to show His love to save this man.
Blessings
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Nah, it sounds just right to me.
I hope I am, in some part, speaking to what you pose here...but, here goes.
Romans 7:5, transliterated Greek:
hote gar émen en té sarki=while indeed {we were} in the flesh
Romans 7:14, transliterated Greek:
égo de sarkinos eimi=I however fleshly am
So, in one verse we have Paul saying "we were in the flesh", in the other we have him saying "I am fleshly".
Is is possible that little preposition "in" in v.5 makes a difference? I know from my teensy study of Greek that prepositions have much larger implications in Greek than they do in English. (not that there isn't a pretty big difference between saying I am under a table and saying I am concerning a table...
)(I think it's important to note that "sarx", the root word for flesh isn't always derogatory. In John 1:14 we are told "the Word became flesh, and 1 John 2 tells us that "Jesus has come in the flesh". Or, maybe it's just important to me.
)As to a possible problem with the verse from Philippians, I must be more dense than usual this evening, because I honestly don't see the problem. If anything, I see these thoughts as harmonious. Can you help me?
Xian Pugilist
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SARX means flesh, sometimes it refers to the bodies flesh, sometimes what the NIV calls sinful nature.
In this case paul is already in his flesh, so I'm going with sinful nature.
In one verse he is in the flesh, apparently, and in the other him and others are not in the flesh anymore. So, is Paul in the flesh, or not in the flesh....?
In romans 7:5 paul is not in the flesh, but later in romans 7 he is discussing how he still is in the flesh, which is it?
In this case paul is already in his flesh, so I'm going with sinful nature.
In one verse he is in the flesh, apparently, and in the other him and others are not in the flesh anymore. So, is Paul in the flesh, or not in the flesh....?
In romans 7:5 paul is not in the flesh, but later in romans 7 he is discussing how he still is in the flesh, which is it?
I guess I stated my thoughts poorly...but even the NASB (my fave translation) distinguishes between the two with the change in preposition, from "in" v.5, to "of" v.14. I could offer a dozen different commentators opinions, but I don't think you'd appreciate that. (by which I mean no offense!) I'll consider this to see if there's anything more I have to offer you regarding these verses. Busy day--I told my 17 yo I'd play games with her tonight. And I love playing board games with my kids!
Xian Pugilist
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The of in 14 is not there, its added from the word for sarx. But I don't think it would do anything to the interpretation? I think its diffwerent because he came at the same topic from a different angle..... he presents the two natures, sarx/pneuma as one you are enslaved to. So, you belong to them, see the word for accord in honda 8, errr romans 8. So in the sense of in, or of, in this case I don't see how it matters.... but that might only mean I don't track what you see well yet..
Hmmm yes well σάρξ in verse Rom 7:5. is a noun. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
In Rom 7:14. σαρκικός is an adjective...it adds to the pronoun 'I' to which it refers. "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Not sure what is under debate here, but V14 is not V5 restated.
Not sure why the Esv associated the article with an adjective...........but O well (sigh)
In Rom 7:14. σαρκικός is an adjective...it adds to the pronoun 'I' to which it refers. "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Not sure what is under debate here, but V14 is not V5 restated.
Not sure why the Esv associated the article with an adjective...........but O well (sigh)
The bible is not a scientific book you need to dissect. It is a gospel of love based on faith and human impression.