Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

[gemma]

..........If I may suggest.. the statement by you. " suffice it to say that no one, not one has the gift of prophecy today" . My suggestion to you, is that this statement is a prophetic utterance in of itself.. I would not presume to speak as if God, to say such a thing..!

I would suggest this is totally wrong...Every Christian of true faith therein, has a measure of Gods spirit within them, which guides them to truth in scriptures. Be it the blessing of the Spirit as to " discernment of the word" to prophetic Knowledge of established prophecies... Let me suggest and agree that New Prophetic words by men from God, are at an end;...But the " Spirit of Prophesy", exists now as in times past, which Spiritual knowledge comes from God. As far as my blessing from God, these things are a personal matter between men and God, not for public airing.....

I missed this one. I concur with Spiritofprohecy.

The Holy Spirit that gave those apostles and disciples of Christ the gifts (1 Cor 12:8-10) IS the same Holy Spirit that (1 Cor 12:11) "...works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills" these gifts today. Nevertheless, some, if not most, in the forum ARE also aware that there are misuse and abuse, especially, of the showy gifts. That is why Paul talks about LOVE (agape) in the MIDST of 1 CORINTHIANS 12 to 14 (gifts of the HS). If others in the body of Christ are flaunting it like "Hey, look at me! Hey, listen to me! See, I have this gift! And you don't have it!", is NOT doing it in love. Others will go as far as telling other believers that don't speak in tongues as they are not saved. That is NOT what Paul teaches. He says in 1 Cor 13:4-7 that this love IS "...kind; ... love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;... does not seek its own, is not provoked, ... bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. These gifts are to be used for the benefit of the members of the body of Christ, not to be flaunted around which has sadly caused the divisions and strife in the Church.

 

[mistmann]

No disrespect intened here to "spiritofprophecy" but his statement simply is in-correct. What he is saying is trying to FORCE what he WANTS the Scritpures to say.

1 Corth. 13:8-10................
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away".

Verse 10 tells us when the temporary sign gifts were done away with. They ended when that which is perfect is come. That is a reference to the Bible. The Temporary sign gifts only lasted until the Bible was finished. Their purpose was to validate a preachers message. Once the Bible was finished the sign gifts were no longer needed to validate a preachers message. The perfect authoritative Word of God is all that is needed to validate what the preacher says. So when the perfect Word of God was finished the sign gifts like tongues ceased.

Some argue that that which is perfect is not a reference to the Bible but is a reference to Jesus. There are several problems with this argument.
First Jesus was a male. Thus for the reference to be Jesus the Greek tense would have to be masculine, but it is NOT. I already posted the need for the word in Greek to be NEUTER.

Second by reading the early church fathers it is clear that tongues had already ceased very early on. If the reference was to Jesus and not the Bible, then Jesus would have already come because tongues had already ceased. It is clearly evident that Jesus has not yet come back.

Third, it can not be the coming Kingdom because it is NOT PERFECT. Lets read Revelation 20:7-10..................

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When we read that we see very quickly that the Kingdom is not "perfect". There is still sin because the children of the saints seek to make war with God at the end of the 1000 year rule when they are tested by Satan. When tested, man fails yet again so the idea of perfect is simply is not there.

Greek grammar and early church history make it clear that the reference in verse 10 is the perfect Word of God and not Jesus. Rightly dividing the Word of God then makes it clear that the PERFECT ONE can not be the Kingdom. By the process of elimination, we come once again to the cannon of Scriptures...the Bible.

On the understanding I am joining a discussion and not issuing a challenge to debate has anybody considered that 1 Corth. 13:8-10 is about what will still apply in Heaven and what will no longer be applicable in Heaven but is only necessary while we are here on earth and not fully knowledgeable of all things? There is coming a time, with the return of Christ, when the knowledge of ALL those in Christ will be made perfect. That is full knowledge of all things in Heaven and on Earth. With ALL having full knowledge the NEED to prophesy one to another is no longer required for all will have the SAME knowledge of the things of the Lord and the whole universe. The purpose of tongues and the ability to interpret them is clearly to enable communication among those who speak different tongues (ie languages). A very important gift when your audience speaks a different language than the speaker which was very frequent in the first years of the great commission and the supply of interpreters exceedingly limited. It is not so frequent these days and many interpreters are available and so the need for the gift of tongues is rarely needed. But in Heaven it is not needed at all for we will all speak and understand the SAME language.

BUT FAITH, HOPE, and CHARITY abide forever and are required in Heaven as much as on Earth. These are the gifts that abide with us forver.

I do not wish to open the "preterism" discussion again but as one often wrongly labelled and TREATED like a preterist I want to issue a caution about labelling anybody anything and to treat ALL in a christlike manner. But in this particular instance to encourage people to properly DISCERN between those who believe all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD and those who realistically appreciate that prophecy did not suddenly STOP being fulfilled in 70 AD as some seem to preach and teach.

 

[gemma]

No disrespect intened here to "spiritofprophecy" but his statement simply is in-correct. What he is saying is trying to FORCE what he WANTS the Scritpures to say.

1 Corth. 13:8-10................
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away". ..........

I don't think that he did that, Major.

I was about to use the phrase "forced interpretation" on yours but I restrained in my first two previous posts.

I have deleted my first encounter of 1 Corinthians 13 in my Christian life as I don't want to provoke any emotions that might come from other readers and to put any shame on another.

 

[gemma]

...1 Corth. 13:8-10................
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away".

Verse 10 tells us when the temporary sign gifts were done away with. They ended when that which is perfect is come. That is a reference to the Bible. The Temporary sign gifts only lasted until the Bible was finished. Their purpose was to validate a preachers message. Once the Bible was finished the sign gifts were no longer needed to validate a preachers message. The perfect authoritative Word of God is all that is needed to validate what the preacher says. So when the perfect Word of God was finished the sign gifts like tongues ceased.

Some argue that that which is perfect is not a reference to the Bible but is a reference to Jesus. There are several problems with this argument.
First Jesus was a male. Thus for the reference to be Jesus the Greek tense would have to be masculine, but it is NOT. I already posted the need for the word in Greek to be NEUTER.

Second by reading the early church fathers it is clear that tongues had already ceased very early on. If the reference was to Jesus and not the Bible, then Jesus would have already come because tongues had already ceased. It is clearly evident that Jesus has not yet come back.

Third, it can not be the coming Kingdom because it is NOT PERFECT. Lets read Revelation 20:7-10..................

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When we read that we see very quickly that the Kingdom is not "perfect". There is still sin because the children of the saints seek to make war with God at the end of the 1000 year rule when they are tested by Satan. When tested, man fails yet again so the idea of perfect is simply is not there.

Greek grammar and early church history make it clear that the reference in verse 10 is the perfect Word of God and not Jesus. Rightly dividing the Word of God then makes it clear that the PERFECT ONE can not be the Kingdom. By the process of elimination, we come once again to the cannon of Scriptures...the Bible.

There's a reason why we have more than one interpretation. Remember 1906?

Anyways, the word "perfect", for me and others who agree, is our glorious destination called Heaven. In the context of 1 Corinthians in Chapter 1 and 15, it's used connecting to the Second Coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:5-8 -
5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23-27 -
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." a But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

 

[gemma]

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 -
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[gemma]

I just wanted to edit something to my second paragraph -

The "perfect has come", to be clear, is the Second Coming of Christ. I mentioned Heaven as the verses 8, 9 states that ...But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. are the gifts which are no longer necessary in Heaven.

 

[Major]

I just wanted to edit something to my second paragraph -

The "perfect has come", to be clear, is the Second Coming of Christ. I mentioned Heaven as the verses 8, 9 states that ...But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. are the gifts which are no longer necessary in Heaven.

Gemma, I love you my dear and respect your thoughts. BUT, having said that, we can not change the "grammer" of the original Greek. It is just not to do.

There is a difference between how prophecy and knowledge come to an end, and how the gift of languages (tongues) does, as indicated by the Greek verb forms used. Prophecy does not mean forecasting or telling the future. The gift of prophecy in its true biblical definition means simply “speaking forth,” or “proclaiming publicly”. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word. Therefore it actually means TEACHING..
That perfect one (neuter in the Greek) refers to a thing and the only perfect thing to ever be on the earth is the Bible, the perfect Word of God. Yes Jesus was perfect but He was a man not a thing as the Greek point to. "NEUTER" de-notes or pertains to a gender that refers to things classed as neither masculine nor feminine. It is and has been the way the Greeks designated THINGS instead of individuals. We can NOT CHANGE that explination. That means the "PERFECT ONE" has to be a THING and the only perfect THING in existance is the Word of God..THE BIBLE.

So we have the Bible. It is complete. It replaces PROPHECIS, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE!!!

I do understand the need to make it be the 2nd coming of Christ and even the Kingdom, but IMHO it is just not possible to change the gramatics of the Greek language to make that happen.

 

[Major]

On the understanding I am joining a discussion and not issuing a challenge to debate has anybody considered that 1 Corth. 13:8-10 is about what will still apply in Heaven and what will no longer be applicable in Heaven but is only necessary while we are here on earth and not fully knowledgeable of all things? There is coming a time, with the return of Christ, when the knowledge of ALL those in Christ will be made perfect. That is full knowledge of all things in Heaven and on Earth. With ALL having full knowledge the NEED to prophesy one to another is no longer required for all will have the SAME knowledge of the things of the Lord and the whole universe. The purpose of tongues and the ability to interpret them is clearly to enable communication among those who speak different tongues (ie languages). A very important gift when your audience speaks a different language than the speaker which was very frequent in the first years of the great commission and the supply of interpreters exceedingly limited. It is not so frequent these days and many interpreters are available and so the need for the gift of tongues is rarely needed. But in Heaven it is not needed at all for we will all speak and understand the SAME language.

BUT FAITH, HOPE, and CHARITY abide forever and are required in Heaven as much as on Earth. These are the gifts that abide with us forver.

I do not wish to open the "preterism" discussion again but as one often wrongly labelled and TREATED like a preterist I want to issue a caution about labelling anybody anything and to treat ALL in a christlike manner. But in this particular instance to encourage people to properly DISCERN between those who believe all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD and those who realistically appreciate that prophecy did not suddenly STOP being fulfilled in 70 AD as some seem to preach and teach.

YES, I believe all serious Bible students have considered your statement, and I for one have rejected it.

Prophecy DID NOT come to and end in 70 AD as John wrote the Revelation in his latter years on Patmos in about 90 to 93 AD.

According to 1 Corth. 13:8-10, those things that were IN PART were done away with when the PERFECT one came. As has been stated before, only 2 things have COME which are considered perfect...the Bible and Christ. Since the Greek for Perfect is MATURE, one can then surmise that the Scriptures are what is in focus in 1 Cort. 13:8-10.
The great problem before Paul was the instruction and guidance of the church in Corinth; and the most acceptable view of what might be called "perfect" in connection with that problem would be the completed canon on the New Testament. McGarvey understood it as "the recorded word." Kelcy called it "The body of truth fully revealed." DeHoff identified it as "The New Testament." The comparison which Paul at once made contrasted the childhood age of the church with the church's maturity, not the present dispensation with the ultimate condition of the saints in heaven; and this demands that the expression "that which is perfect" must be associated, not with conditions in heaven, but with the maturity of the church; and that condition is met only by referring the words to God's completed revelation, the Bible.

 

[Major]

Dok, I don't know what kind of point you intend to make, but being in the WCC does not make a church preterist.

The Israelis are illegally occupying large parts of Palestine, and have been actively persecuting the Palestinians for generations.
If it weren't for the horrendously powerful lobbyists in Washington, Israel would have been sanctioned for its genocidal behavior long ago.

He was telling us that if we would look at the link he provided, we would see a long list of churches that are in fact involved in the "preterist" view of Scriptures.

My grandfater said to me a long time ago that when one lays down with dogs, he will get fleas. Motto: guilt by association!

Biblical truth is in Galatians 6:7..........
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap".

 

[Major]

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 -
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Agreed as these verses confirm and describe the "Catching away" of believers........which is the "Rapturo" in Greek!!!!

 

[Major]

I just wanted to edit something to my second paragraph -

The "perfect has come", to be clear, is the Second Coming of Christ. I mentioned Heaven as the verses 8, 9 states that ...But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. are the gifts which are no longer necessary in Heaven.

Gemma,
Please consider regarding the "Biblical usage" of "perfect," it should be noted that even of the Old Testament it was said, "The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul" (Psalms 19:7); thus "perfect" most assuredly is applied to the revealed word of God; and such being true of the Old Testament makes it even more applicable to the New Testament.

That which is in part shall be done away ...
Failure to see that "MIRACULOUS knowledge, tongues, prophecies, etc." called in these chapters "spiritual gifts," are to be identified with the things in part that shall be done away places you in an impossible position. Take ordinary "knowledge," is this to be done away with when we get to heaven? Certainly not. Later, at the end of the chapter, Paul gives a glimpse of eternity, but not here. The things in part which were soon to be done away were the supernatural gifts of the infancy age of the church. "Paul considered the days of spiritual gifts as the process by which the goal of maturity should be reached."

These gifts were to continue in the church to guide and instruct it until the completed will of God was made known. They were to serve a temporary purpose; then when their office was fulfilled, they were to pass away and give place to the revealed will of God WHICH IS FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[John Zain]

The best example of Preterism gone wild is the World Council of Churches. That organization recently held that the problems in the Middle East are the fault of Israel. They called Israel "occupiers." I suspect they need to read Genesis 12, and a whole lot of other references. You can take a look at Preterist churches in the WCC here:
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches.html

25 years ago, it was common knowledge that the WCC was a communist organization.
The United Church of Canada was of one its' wonderful honored members.
The Moderator of this Protestant church (for many years) came out saying
that Jesus was not God and the Holy Spirit was only a force.
8 years later, he was no longer Moderator.
Probably some born-again members managed to force him out.
Yikes.

 

[mistmann]

YES, I believe all serious Bible students have considered your statement, and I for one have rejected it.

Prophecy DID NOT come to and end in 70 AD as John wrote the Revelation in his latter years on Patmos in about 90 to 93 AD.

According to 1 Corth. 13:8-10, those things that were IN PART were done away with when the PERFECT one came. As has been stated before, only 2 things have COME which are considered perfect...the Bible and Christ. Since the Greek for Perfect is MATURE, one can then surmise that the Scriptures are what is in focus in 1 Cort. 13:8-10.
The great problem before Paul was the instruction and guidance of the church in Corinth; and the most acceptable view of what might be called "perfect" in connection with that problem would be the completed canon on the New Testament. McGarvey understood it as "the recorded word." Kelcy called it "The body of truth fully revealed." DeHoff identified it as "The New Testament." The comparison which Paul at once made contrasted the childhood age of the church with the church's maturity, not the present dispensation with the ultimate condition of the saints in heaven; and this demands that the expression "that which is perfect" must be associated, not with conditions in heaven, but with the maturity of the church; and that condition is met only by referring the words to God's completed revelation, the Bible.

That many reject what the word of God actually says is why the Christian community is in such a mess today. We need to understand that truth is not established by who or how many accept it and how many reject it. Truth is not a numbers game. Even if the whole world gets it wrong they still get it wrong. Consequently references to who or how many accept or reject a particular teaching is quite immaterial as a measure of whether or not the teaching is correct. The ONLY test for truth is REALITY. That which is true accords with the facts of reality, that which is not true does not accord with the FACTS.

Consider how almost the entire Jewish religious establishment crucified Christ AND His followers for preaching "HERESY"!! The apostles were, in their eyes, "unlearned and ignorant" men teaching that which the educated, highly trained, theological "experts" and supposedly wise men of the foremost religious establishment in the country declared "WRONG" and that what THEY taught was "RIGHT"! That the Lord used "ignorant and unlearned" men empowered and enabled by nothing other than the Holy Spirit Himself to prove them wrong should tell us something about the Lord's view of relying on academic qualifications and religious organisations as a source and authority for truth.

We have reality and the word of the Lord Himself and the indwelling Holy Spirit to show us what is true and what is not. If we do not listen to THEM above all others then we are lost indeed in a maze of opinions and assumptions.

Prophecy DID NOT come to and end in 70 AD as John wrote the Revelation in his latter years on Patmos in about 90 to 93 AD.

It is important to note I did not say anything about prophecy coming to an end in 70 AD. What I actually said was those who believe the FULFILMENT of prophecy suddenly stopped in 70AD. I speak to many people and it is surprising and worrying that there seems to be an inexplicable reluctance to even consider that ANY of the biblical prophecies have seen their fulfilment in world history at any time in the last 1,940 years or so. It is as if, even in the christian community, the fulfilment of many Biblical prophecies in the last 1,940 years and any discussion of them is being deliberately discouraged, if not even actively suppressed.

Rule 101 of deception is to ensure people's eyes are averted from the reality of what is happening so they will believe an illusion of what is happening, and we face the biggest deceiver of them all. We must be careful to never take our eyes off the reality of what is happening:-

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

One of the biggest deceptions is that he (Satan) is not already out there loose and deceiving the nations (and peoples) of the world. Note how even NOW the nations are being gathered together against Israel and Jerusalem. Only that increasingly resented superpower that has dominated (and corrupted) the world for so long, that trades with all the world - by ship - stands between Israel and the rest of the world. BUT for how long can it maintain its position?

Your comments about gender may be valid but you are forgetting that the perfect "one" that is coming was not on the earth but "coming" at a future time. The scriptures and the writings of the Apostles (except Revelation) were in existence and circulating at the time of the Apostles, just not collated into a book. Apart from Jesus Himself HEAVEN is coming to the Earth (or more precisely to those on Earth who are in Christ). Also coming to the Earth is that MOON sized metal and crystaline structure called the "New Jerusalem". The same structure John saw descending (through the air) onto a NEW Earth under a NEW Heaven.

BUT what we DO know and is abundantly clear is that the IMPERFECT is still with us and has not been done away with! (That *I* am here and far from perfect - yet - is ample proof of that ). Therefore the prophecy has not yet come to pass.

 

[Major]

That many reject what the word of God actually says is why the Christian community is in such a mess today. We need to understand that truth is not established by who or how many accept it and how many reject it. Truth is not a numbers game. Even if the whole world gets it wrong they still get it wrong. Consequently references to who or how many accept or reject a particular teaching is quite immaterial as a measure of whether or not the teaching is correct. The ONLY test for truth is REALITY. That which is true accords with the facts of reality, that which is not true does not accord with the FACTS.

Consider how almost the entire Jewish religious establishment crucified Christ AND His followers for preaching "HERESY"!! The apostles were, in their eyes, "unlearned and ignorant" men teaching that which the educated, highly trained, theological "experts" and supposedly wise men of the foremost religious establishment in the country declared "WRONG" and that what THEY taught was "RIGHT"! That the Lord used "ignorant and unlearned" men empowered and enabled by nothing other than the Holy Spirit Himself to prove them wrong should tell us something about the Lord's view of relying on academic qualifications and religious organisations as a source and authority for truth.

We have reality and the word of the Lord Himself and the indwelling Holy Spirit to show us what is true and what is not. If we do not listen to THEM above all others then we are lost indeed in a maze of opinions and assumptions.

It is important to note I did not say anything about prophecy coming to an end in 70 AD. What I actually said was those who believe the FULFILMENT of prophecy suddenly stopped in 70AD. I speak to many people and it is surprising and worrying that there seems to be an inexplicable reluctance to even consider that ANY of the biblical prophecies have seen their fulfilment in world history at any time in the last 1,940 years or so. It is as if, even in the christian community, the fulfilment of many Biblical prophecies in the last 1,940 years and any discussion of them is being deliberately discouraged, if not even actively suppressed.

Rule 101 of deception is to ensure people's eyes are averted from the reality of what is happening so they will believe an illusion of what is happening, and we face the biggest deceiver of them all. We must be careful to never take our eyes off the reality of what is happening:-

One of the biggest deceptions is that he (Satan) is not already out there loose and deceiving the nations (and peoples) of the world. Note how even NOW the nations are being gathered together against Israel and Jerusalem. Only that increasingly resented superpower that has dominated (and corrupted) the world for so long, that trades with all the world - by ship - stands between Israel and the rest of the world. BUT for how long can it maintain its position?

Your comments about gender may be valid but you are forgetting that the perfect "one" that is coming was not on the earth but "coming" at a future time. The scriptures and the writings of the Apostles (except Revelation) were in existence and circulating at the time of the Apostles, just not collated into a book. Apart from Jesus Himself HEAVEN is coming to the Earth (or more precisely to those on Earth who are in Christ). Also coming to the Earth is that MOON sized metal and crystaline structure called the "New Jerusalem". The same structure John saw descending (through the air) onto a NEW Earth under a NEW Heaven.

BUT what we DO know and is abundantly clear is that the IMPERFECT is still with us and has not been done away with! (That *I* am here and far from perfect - yet - is ample proof of that ). Therefore the prophecy has not yet come to pass.

No argument from me.

Men have disagreed on 1 Corth. 13:10 for hundreds of years and Lord knows I am not an expert on theology.
I can only relate as to what the Scripture say to me and how it places all things into context.

Nice to communicate with you on this subject.

 

[mistmann]

Nice to communicate with you on this subject.

Same here, Hope all is going well with you.

 

[gemma]

I guess I don't need to reply to Major's replies....I don't feel like doing it anymore...particularly on here. But..I'll keep my draft!

This is a separate topic from our exchanges here. It just occurred to me why others don't show love anymore due to them flaunting so I felt like I need to share these passages.......
Matt 24:11-12
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

 

[Dok]

There is coming a time, with the return of Christ, when the knowledge of ALL those in Christ will be made perfect. That is full knowledge of all things in Heaven and on Earth. With ALL having full knowledge the NEED to prophesy one to another is no longer required for all will have the SAME knowledge of the things of the Lord and the whole universe.

I was just getting ready to thunder that, but then I scrolled back up and saw it, so my thunder fizzles away. My presentation was going to be the concept that "when that is Perfect is come" refers to the end of the millennial reign, the banishment of satan and his hordes to eternal damnation, and BEHOLD, a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth. I sort of look to that as THE Perfect that was referred to.

One other observation in passing. We are all aware of modern translations changing "perfect" to "mature." For me, that is a HUGE blunder. I invite everyone to find those passages, cross out "mature," and insert "perfect." The former is worldly, the latter is highly Spiritual.

..................and with that, he tottered off to bed, Bible in hand.

 

[gemma]

Gemma, I love you my dear and respect your thoughts.

Thank you and much love to you as well, Major.

Major, you have my respect and admiration!

 

[Major]

Thank you and much love to you as well, Major.

Major, you have my respect and admiration!

God bless you!

 

[laterunner]

Love is what makes the world ''God created '' go round. This is the basis of the word here; NO???? Not whether things come or go. So whats all the hoo haa??

We hear & move in & with the Holy Spirit as we feel led or motivated.

1 Corinthians 13:6-14

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

ASBURY BIBLE Comentory.
Paul's lengthy “digression” on love prepares for ch. 14, providing the rationale for Paul's preference for prophecy over tongues. Spiritual gifts are meaningful only within a community in which love for others, not selfinterest, dominates. Love is not an end in itself. Its excellence resides in its ability to build up others (see 8:1). The effectiveness of prophecy as an instrument of love upbuilding the church is the basis for Paul's preference of it to tongues (14:3, 4, 5, 12, 17, 26).
Ch. 13 is a forceful critique of arrogant Corinthian spirituality. Paul does not deny the genuineness of spiritual gifts, but he dismisses their value as evidence of spiritual superiority. Submission to the lordship of Christ, not inspiration, is the hallmark of spiritual people (12:1-3). Holy love, not gifts, is the one essential evidence of the Spirit-filled life (Ch. 13; 8:1; 16:14). Ch. 13