Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Mr. Dok;...

Christianity as to individual people; is established by ones words they profess, to avow and claim faith in Jesus as savior.. I Clam Jesus as Messiah and Lord God of heaven and earth. According to scriptures, this is all one need do to be recognized as a Christian in the eyes of men... As to salvation and the Kingdom, it is achieved by Grace through faith, and is a gift of God and cannot be attained by deeds, or words alone.. Jesus judges mans heart, and saves whom he chooses...
As to the " other question". I am not one who likes to guess at things, so I shall refrain from attempting.
As to my Christian heritage. I was born into a Nazarene household, and strict Christian foundation all my life... I had questions and doubts as a youth, which doubts in Jesus were resolved also in my youth.

If I may suggest.. the statement by you. " suffice it to say that no one, not one has the gift of prophecy today" . My suggestion to you, is that this statement is a prophetic utterance in of itself.. I would not presume to speak as if God, to say such a thing..!

I would suggest this is totally wrong...Every Christian of true faith therein, has a measure of Gods spirit within them, which guides them to truth in scriptures. Be it the blessing of the Spirit as to " discernment of the word" to prophetic Knowledge of established prophecies... Let me suggest and agree that New Prophetic words by men from God, are at an end;...But the " Spirit of Prophesy", exists now as in times past, which Spiritual knowledge comes from God. As far as my blessing from God, these things are a personal matter between men and God, not for public airing...I will say, that my " Cup runneth over" with blessings from God, as are most Christians who pray and meditate to God and the word...Praise God

I will admit, when I read scriptures, I become entranced as if in another state, and the words sing unto me. God speaks unto men of faith through the spirit,l as the" wind listed here and there"... As to Gods truths being revealed, he who "seeks shall find".
Believing that these are the end days, and that " The windows of heaven are open" and " Gods spirit is poured out in abundance"..And all things of Gods words are now " unsealed" for mankind who are of faith in God to know if open to receive... again I am long winded and being Preachy...for this I apologize...

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

 

[fil3232003]

Since this Thread is about the "Trinity," it presupposes indentifying the One True GOD of the Holy Bible. The GOSPELS and EPISTLES are given to us for this purpose. Otherwise, we will be subject to the rebuke of JESUS CHRIST in:

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Hence, Jesus Christ expects us to know the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses; and the GOD of Peter and Paul, and the NAME of this One True GOD.

 

[Major]

I agree. Nothing is gained through a condescending attitude. You will find that few respond well to it.

Banarenth and his favorite granny,
The problem seems to be mine.
Few seem to understand the words that I have written.
So, I caution everyone to read it very carefully before committing judgment.
Key words: Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, gospel, multitudes.
.

Do you really think anyone cares what Confucious says!

 

[Major]

Banarenth and his favorite granny,
The problem seems to be mine.
Few seem to understand the words that I have written.
So, I caution everyone to read it very carefully before committing judgment.
Key words: Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, gospel, multitudes.
.

She is my favorite Granny too!!!

 

[Major]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Mr. Dok;...

Christianity as to individual people; is established by ones words they profess, to avow and claim faith in Jesus as savior.. I Clam Jesus as Messiah and Lord God of heaven and earth. According to scriptures, this is all one need do to be recognized as a Christian in the eyes of men... As to salvation and the Kingdom, it is achieved by Grace through faith, and is a gift of God and cannot be attained by deeds, or words alone.. Jesus judges mans heart, and saves whom he chooses...
As to the " other question". I am not one who likes to guess at things, so I shall refrain from attempting.
As to my Christian heritage. I was born into a Nazarene household, and strict Christian foundation all my life... I had questions and doubts as a youth, which doubts in Jesus were resolved also in my youth.

If I may suggest.. the statement by you. " suffice it to say that no one, not one has the gift of prophecy today" . My suggestion to you, is that this statement is a prophetic utterance in of itself.. I would not presume to speak as if God, to say such a thing..!

I would suggest this is totally wrong...Every Christian of true faith therein, has a measure of Gods spirit within them, which guides them to truth in scriptures. Be it the blessing of the Spirit as to " discernment of the word" to prophetic Knowledge of established prophecies... Let me suggest and agree that New Prophetic words by men from God, are at an end;...But the " Spirit of Prophesy", exists now as in times past, which Spiritual knowledge comes from God. As far as my blessing from God, these things are a personal matter between men and God, not for public airing...I will say, that my " Cup runneth over" with blessings from God, as are most Christians who pray and meditate to God and the word...Praise God

I will admit, when I read scriptures, I become entranced as if in another state, and the words sing unto me. God speaks unto men of faith through the spirit,l as the" wind listed here and there"... As to Gods truths being revealed, he who "seeks shall find".
Believing that these are the end days, and that " The windows of heaven are open" and " Gods spirit is poured out in abundance"..And all things of Gods words are now " unsealed" for mankind who are of faith in God to know if open to receive... again I am long winded and being Preachy...for this I apologize...

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

My dear friend...........Discernment of things said, has nothing to do with prophesy.

1 Corth. 13:8
"Love never fails, but whether there be PROPHECIES, they shall CEASE, whether there be tongues they shall CEASE, whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part".

WHEN shall this take place must then be the question.

Verse 1o
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part neutershall be done away with"

"THAT WHICH IS PERFECT" must be considered in the light of 2:6 in the sense of "MATURE".
(Col. 3:14 and Heb. 6:1 also confirm this). The statement is neuter in the Greek and refers to a THING not a person. Therefore it is the completeness of the Scripture and NOT the coming of Christ in His 1st advent.

But even if it does refer to the 1st Advent the result is the same.

I understand some do not like that thought but it in effect makes DOK's statement about prophets correct.

Since we have the complete Word of God and we are told in Deut. 4 and Rev. 22 that we are not to add to or take away from this book, then to say that there are prophets today rejects the Biblical advice given therein.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I always like to take opportunities to teach the word and edify and exhort the faithful..

I like 1 Corinthians a lot. 1 Corinthians 14:1 also speaks to the subject matter now in discourse.. 1. " Follow after Charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."...and also verse 3. " But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."...

Prophetic utterances, is not limited in its edification of Church or limited in dispensation to the faithful. We are to all seek it...!!!

I pray my words will not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.

 

[fil3232003]

Major, yes to many readers of the Holy Bible they find "salvation is very easy," after declaring, "I am now 'born again for I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life." But, did our Lord have to say the following?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Are these people already exempted from this rebuke of our Lord Jesus Christ?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
What is the identity of the FATHER? (Many people only describe Him!)

 

[Major]

Major, yes to many readers of the Holy Bible they find "salvation is very easy," after declaring, "I am now 'born again for I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life." But, did our Lord have to say the following?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Are these people already exempted from this rebuke of our Lord Jesus Christ?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
What is the identity of the FATHER? (Many people only describe Him!)

Can you explain what you are trying to say???? Since He did say those things then YES, He did have to say them..........Your point is???????

 

[Dok]

Spiritofprophecy, I think we are talking past each other. I read your posts and see obvious contradictions, as well.
So I'll drop out of responding to you.

 

[mistmann]

Ge 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision

Nu 36:5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD, saying,

1Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

1Sa 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,

2Sa 7:4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

2Sa 24:11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David’s seer,

1Ki 6:11 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon,

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Hag 1:3 Then came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet, saying,

What is prophecy but the willingness and courage to correctly speak the word of the Lord that has come to you by the Spirit of the Lord! To some it came in a vision. To some it came by an angel. To some it came by a voice.

To US it comes by the written word of God Himself.

If you have the Bible then the WORD OF GOD has come to YOU. If you have also the Holy Spirit of the Lord then you have EVERYTHING any prophet ever had. Therefore do not hinder or grieve the Holy Spirit within you - go forth and CORRECTLY prophesy the word of the Lord to those who will listen.
But to avoid being a false prophet you must speak the actual WORD of the Lord Himself and not just YOUR interpretation of it. It requires that you properly understand what it is the Bible actually says not what somebody else tells you it says.

Just something for everybody to think and pray about.

 

[Glomung]

And there it is, the real point -->"But to avoid being a false prophet you must speak the actual WORD of the Lord Himself and not just YOUR interpretation of it. It requires that you properly understand what it is the Bible actually says not what somebody else tells you it says."

I would say that every single heresy and pseudo-Christian cult has started with some dullard not being able to follow the above statement.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;...

I do believe we have strayed off thread...

If I may comment for clarification, to the verses of 1 Corinthians 13: 10.. which translation one uses does have great effect and perception to readers.... In KJV 1 Corinthians 13:10. reads very different...." But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is part shall be done away." The Part here is the Prophesy;... The complete is the Kingdom of heaven, when Jesus returns.. As 1 Corinthians 13:9. " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.".

Now since that which is perfect as to the world is not here yet, but only as 1 Corinthians 13:12. says. " For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face|: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"...

As to prophesy for us and of now...1 Corinthians 14:1...." Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. "... Paul would not tell us to seek prophesy, if one cannot attain these things. Since God never changes, and his truth is eternal: These directions and teachings of Paul are as truth today as in the 1st Century...!

Some time I wonder if there are some Preterism concepts espoused in the forum today. I also question whom people believe Jesus is ? and if the Forum's Statement of faith, is accepted by all or some in forum.?

Who is and was Jesus....1. Almighty Father made flesh and One with God... Or 2... Descendant Son of Father God, Jesus being a second lesser God. or 3. Jesus is not God but Prophet or something else.....

I am going with #1.. Jesus is God the Father made flesh, and One with God, and Only one God.

I also apologize to Mr. Dok; if he feels I have not addressed his points, I did honestly try, but my perception of his posts and points, I did find myself lacking in perception, for this I apologize..

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum and all those who use it..

 

[Panda]

Jesus, by no means, could be a prophet. I don't even understand how Islam can consider Jesus a Prophet, because if Jesus is anything but he Son of God, then He would be a blasphemer, and therefore not a prophet to God. I never have figured out how anyone can come to the #3 conclusion. It's like saying, "He was a horrible liar who always tells the truth".

The forum is very clear on the Statement of Faith. Anyone who does not agree with that Statement of Faith is here by false circumstances. It's not like it hasn't happened in the past, but most of those posting are from people I have never seen espouse anything that violates our SoF. You and John Zain are the only two that I know very little about since you have both jumped into controversial/debated topics without participating anywhere else on the forum. As such, it is assumed until we see evidence to the contrary than any member on this forum has agreed to the SoF.

 

[gemma]

What is prophecy but the willingness and courage to correctly speak the word of the Lord that has come to you by the Spirit of the Lord! To some it came in a vision. To some it came by an angel. To some it came by a voice.

To US it comes by the written word of God Himself.

If you have the Bible then the WORD OF GOD has come to YOU. If you have also the Holy Spirit of the Lord then you have EVERYTHING any prophet ever had. Therefore do not hinder or grieve the Holy Spirit within you - go forth and CORRECTLY prophesy the word of the Lord to those who will listen.
But to avoid being a false prophet you must speak the actual WORD of the Lord Himself and not just YOUR interpretation of it. It requires that you properly understand what it is the Bible actually says not what somebody else tells you it says.

Just something for everybody to think and pray about.

I agree with mistmann. He has also hit the mark in his second to the last paragraph, ".....the actual WORD of the Lord Himself and not just YOUR interpretation of it. It requires that you properly understand what it is the Bible actually says not what somebody else tells you it says....".

 

[gemma]

......If I may comment for clarification, to the verses of 1 Corinthians 13: 10.. which translation one uses does have great effect and perception to readers.... In KJV 1 Corinthians 13:10. reads very different...." But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is part shall be done away." The Part here is the Prophesy;... The complete is the Kingdom of heaven, when Jesus returns.. As 1 Corinthians 13:9. " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.".

Now since that which is perfect as to the world is not here yet, but only as 1 Corinthians 13:12. says. " For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face|: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"...

As to prophesy for us and of now...1 Corinthians 14:1...." Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. "... Paul would not tell us to seek prophesy, if one cannot attain these things. Since God never changes, and his truth is eternal: These directions and teachings of Paul are as truth today as in the 1st Century...!..........

I am in agreement with you here.

......Some time I wonder if there are some Preterism concepts espoused in the forum today...........

I have heard of the word preterism here in the forum so I've checked the meaning of it again and I think you're right.

 

[Major]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;...

I do believe we have strayed off thread...

If I may comment for clarification, to the verses of 1 Corinthians 13: 10.. which translation one uses does have great effect and perception to readers.... In KJV 1 Corinthians 13:10. reads very different...." But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is part shall be done away." The Part here is the Prophesy;... The complete is the Kingdom of heaven, when Jesus returns.. As 1 Corinthians 13:9. " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.".

Now since that which is perfect as to the world is not here yet, but only as 1 Corinthians 13:12. says. " For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face|: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"...

As to prophesy for us and of now...1 Corinthians 14:1...." Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. "... Paul would not tell us to seek prophesy, if one cannot attain these things. Since God never changes, and his truth is eternal: These directions and teachings of Paul are as truth today as in the 1st Century...!

Some time I wonder if there are some Preterism concepts espoused in the forum today. I also question whom people believe Jesus is ? and if the Forum's Statement of faith, is accepted by all or some in forum.?

Who is and was Jesus....1. Almighty Father made flesh and One with God... Or 2... Descendant Son of Father God, Jesus being a second lesser God. or 3. Jesus is not God but Prophet or something else.....

I am going with #1.. Jesus is God the Father made flesh, and One with God, and Only one God.

I also apologize to Mr. Dok; if he feels I have not addressed his points, I did honestly try, but my perception of his posts and points, I did find myself lacking in perception, for this I apologize..

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum and all those who use it..

No disrespect intened here to "spiritofprophecy" but his statement simply is in-correct. What he is saying is trying to FORCE what he WANTS the Scritpures to say.

1 Corth. 13:8-10................
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away".

Verse 10 tells us when the temporary sign gifts were done away with. They ended when that which is perfect is come. That is a reference to the Bible. The Temporary sign gifts only lasted until the Bible was finished. Their purpose was to validate a preachers message. Once the Bible was finished the sign gifts were no longer needed to validate a preachers message. The perfect authoritative Word of God is all that is needed to validate what the preacher says. So when the perfect Word of God was finished the sign gifts like tongues ceased.

Some argue that that which is perfect is not a reference to the Bible but is a reference to Jesus. There are several problems with this argument.
First Jesus was a male. Thus for the reference to be Jesus the Greek tense would have to be masculine, but it is NOT. I already posted the need for the word in Greek to be NEUTER.

Second by reading the early church fathers it is clear that tongues had already ceased very early on. If the reference was to Jesus and not the Bible, then Jesus would have already come because tongues had already ceased. It is clearly evident that Jesus has not yet come back.

Third, it can not be the coming Kingdom because it is NOT PERFECT. Lets read Revelation 20:7-10..................



"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When we read that we see very quickly that the Kingdom is not "perfect". There is still sin because the children of the saints seek to make war with God at the end of the 1000 year rule when they are tested by Satan. When tested, man fails yet again so the idea of perfect is simply is not there.


Greek grammar and early church history make it clear that the reference in verse 10 is the perfect Word of God and not Jesus. Rightly dividing the Word of God then makes it clear that the PERFECT ONE can not be the Kingdom. By the process of elimination, we come once again to the cannon of Scriptures...the Bible.

 

[Major]

I am in agreement with you here.

I have heard of the word preterism here in the forum so I've checked the meaning of it again and I think you're right.

The word “preterist” or “preterism,” of course, means past fulfillment. Simply expressed, the word refers to that view of Bible prophecy which recognizes that all of the O.T. and N.T. prophecies of future redemptive and soteriological events were fulfilled completely at the time of the Roman invasion of Jerusalem and the burning of its Temple in A.D. 70. This was “the end of the world” to those believers of Jesus’ day!

I have in fact spoken with a couple of believers in this forum on Preterism.

Presteism reminds me of "GANGRENE".

Gangrene means the putrefaction of tissues. It causes death of the flesh making in turn black and emit a revolting stench. It causes the tissues to swell, and if untreated causes septicaemia and finally death. Gangrene spreads rapidly to the nearby tissues, destroying them also. It should be treated as a medical emergency. Heresy is the same. It, too, is a stench in God’s nostrils, and offensive to the Christian who loves Christ and His truth. It spreads rapidly through the body of the church, poisoning and killing members and sometimes destroying whole congregations and denominations. The Scriptures are replete with warnings concerning the spread of heresy.

IMHO!

 

[Dok]

The best example of Preterism gone wild is the World Council of Churches. That organization recently held that the problems in the Middle East are the fault of Israel. They called Israel "occupiers." I suspect they need to read Genesis 12, and a whole lot of other references. You can take a look at Preterist churches in the WCC here:

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches.html

 

[Glomung]

Dok, I don't know what kind of point you intend to make, but being in the WCC does not make a church preterist.

The Israelis are illegally occupying large parts of Palestine, and have been actively persecuting the Palestinians for generations.
If it weren't for the horrendously powerful lobbyists in Washington, Israel would have been sanctioned for its genocidal behavior long ago.

 

[Panda]

I'm going to step in now, because the political discussion that we've strayed into is beyond the purpose and rules of the site. We'll leave it at that.