Noticed that have your brother!
What is biblical literalism?
- Thread starter Major
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Noticed that have your brother!
As for Daniel 9, Personally....I call that correct exegesis of the Scriptures.
You said...........
"A huge question on race-nation is 'anothen' back in Jn 3 with Nicodemus."
However, upon the study of hermeneutics we see that the discussion was not about "race-nations at all!
ἄνωθεν (ἄνω), adverb;
a. from above, from a higher place: ἀπό ἄνωθεν (Winer's Grammar, § 50, 7 N. 1), Matthew 27:51 (Tdf. omits ἀπό); Mark 15:38; ἐκ τῶν ἄνωθεν from the upper part, from the top, John 19:23. Often (also in Greek writings) used of things which come from heaven, or from God as dwelling in heaven:
Source: https://biblehub.com/greek/509.htm
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (v. 3).
Nicodemus is confused though. He asks, “What do you mean? How can a man be born when he is old? Is he to reenter his mother’s womb?” He doesn’t understand what Jesus is saying. A reason for the confusion and misunderstanding comes from the Greek word (anothen) that Jesus used to mean “again.” This word has several meanings, “again” is one of them, but so is “from above.” So when Jesus says the word, he means one thing: you must be born from above, but Nicodemus takes it to mean again: you must be born again.
Nicodemus still doesn’t understand what Jesus means, but Jesus says he shouldn’t be surprised, since he’s Israel’s teacher. Jesus is referring to the ultimate renewal promised by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:25-27. Jesus uses OT Scriptures (which Nicodemus would be an expert in) to teach what they really mean and what Nicodemus should have known. The passage says:
“I will sprinkle clean water on you [here’s the water aspect], and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you…I will put my Spirit in you.”
This is what spiritual rebirth is about: being cleansed with God’s Spirit and being given God’s spirit living inside us and our hearts. It’s about regeneration. If Nicodemus were a true religious teacher and really knew God, then he should have understood these things.Jesus speaks uniquely to Nicodemus about redemption and his own needs. Nicodemus needs belief, rebirth, and the Spirit. These words speak specifically to his heart issue and need. Being “born again” is not about living a good moral life. It’s not about being a good person. It’s about relationship with God, having his Holy Spirit living inside of you. In this manner, all true believers and followers of Christ are “born again,” because you are born from above of God’s Spirit.
Source: https://www.lifeandfaithcollide.com/bible-study/john/john-3-nicodemus/
You said............
"To me, the weight of God lying or not ends up on 3:23: if the people who don't do what the new Moses says in honor of Christ, they will be disinherited in utter destruction. That is what the destruction of Israel was."
I would like to point out that Jesus told a parable explaining the destruction of Jerusalem and the rise of "the times of the Gentiles." It's the parable of the vineyard and its tenants, recorded in all three synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke). Clearly, this parable was very key for the early church's understanding of the kingdom of God. In the parable, the tenants who have been working the vineyard symbolize the Jewish leaders. They killed the owner's servants, who represent the prophets, and then they conspired to kill the vineyard owner's son and heir. Jesus makes it clear in the parable that the vineyard owner will judge the wicked tenants, take away their share in the vineyard and give it to others. This is precisely what God did in AD 70.
Another way to view the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 is as the removal of a symbolic form of worship which was no longer necessary. If the Jewish people had received the message of the apostles, they would have seen that the Temple was no longer needed. Jesus' body is the living Temple and the cornerstone for the new and living Temple of the church. His sacrifice on the cross was the final sacrifice.
So, the kingdom of God has been removed from the Jewish people because they violently rejected God's Son and anointed King. The Temple was destroyed because it is no longer needed. Still, the story of the Jewish people and their role in God's kingdom purposes is not over. God has promised to bring the Jewish people back to Himself, through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus referred to our times as "the times of the Gentiles" and said that it would end. Jerusalem's domination by Gentiles will end when the times of the Gentiles ends.
Romans 11:1-2..........
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,"
No, I don't know how a person could miss the burning question of the chapter. I might learn whether you are observant enough to do that. At the moment, I don't think you are.
It says scoffers about the 2nd coming would come and ask 'where is the promise of it coming?' Of course, it may be that they were thinking it is the 1st coming. But his extended answer shows he thought they were asking about the 2nd coming in judgement.
As I recall, the letter is from about 60, and Israel could go up in revolution flames at any moment.
You said...........
"A huge question on race-nation is 'anothen' back in Jn 3 with Nicodemus."
However, upon the study of hermeneutics we see that the discussion was not about "race-nations at all!
ἄνωθεν (ἄνω), adverb;
a. from above, from a higher place: ἀπό ἄνωθεν (Winer's Grammar, § 50, 7 N. 1), Matthew 27:51 (Tdf. omits ἀπό); Mark 15:38; ἐκ τῶν ἄνωθεν from the upper part, from the top, John 19:23. Often (also in Greek writings) used of things which come from heaven, or from God as dwelling in heaven:
Source: https://biblehub.com/greek/509.htm
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (v. 3).
Nicodemus is confused though. He asks, “What do you mean? How can a man be born when he is old? Is he to reenter his mother’s womb?” He doesn’t understand what Jesus is saying. A reason for the confusion and misunderstanding comes from the Greek word (anothen) that Jesus used to mean “again.” This word has several meanings, “again” is one of them, but so is “from above.” So when Jesus says the word, he means one thing: you must be born from above, but Nicodemus takes it to mean again: you must be born again.
Nicodemus still doesn’t understand what Jesus means, but Jesus says he shouldn’t be surprised, since he’s Israel’s teacher. Jesus is referring to the ultimate renewal promised by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:25-27. Jesus uses OT Scriptures (which Nicodemus would be an expert in) to teach what they really mean and what Nicodemus should have known. The passage says:
“I will sprinkle clean water on you [here’s the water aspect], and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you…I will put my Spirit in you.”
Jesus speaks uniquely to Nicodemus about redemption and his own needs. Nicodemus needs belief, rebirth, and the Spirit. These words speak specifically to his heart issue and need. Being “born again” is not about living a good moral life. It’s not about being a good person. It’s about relationship with God, having his Holy Spirit living inside of you. In this manner, all true believers and followers of Christ are “born again,” because you are born from above of God’s Spirit.
Source: https://www.lifeandfaithcollide.com/bible-study/john/john-3-nicodemus/
If you look at the end of ch. 2, you can see that he introduced that he was the new temple. A disruption is coming to Judaism and he did not trust people following him because of so many misconceptions, like Nicodemus. Jesus is reaching back to what the faith-people were like to begin with, making a disconnect from physical birth, the theme in ch 1: God's sons are not born from flesh or descendancy or a father's decision. 'From above' or 'from the beginning' is what the faith-people of God, the true Israel, the remnant, not the whole community, were always about. The OT narratives and the NT often distinguish the remnant who believes from the wider community. Nicodemus should have known this.
This becomes a very developed theme in Galatians 4 when the Jerusalem above is our mother (notice how we are 'born' from mothers) and the one below is the flesh and in slavery.
This is close, to a point. Paul and the apostles were Jewish and any Jewish believer down to today, like Luther said, could make an outstanding contribution. So God is not doing with the race-nation what is still being done with individuals, because as 11:30 says 'all are bound to sin, so that God can have mercy on all.' Nothing is race-nation anymore.
The intriguing thing about the end of the parable is Jesus used the term 'ethnos' about the good vineyard workers. 'A people.' There is continuity here with the remnant of true believers that has always been going, since even before Abraham.
I do not know of a promise to bring the Jewish race-nation back that was not said by the apostles to be fulfilled in the coming of the Spirit, and it could be refused or accepted. But it was the fulfillment of Joel 2. The Spirit is always poured out when there is a restoration. There is no 'coming back to the land' that lacks the Spirit's outpouring.
Any description I read from OT prophets about the restoration of Israel always sounds like the traditional worship system is back up in place. But then you get to Hebrews (notice: to Hebrews--Jews) and it is no longer needed. A few clues from the prophets help us see past the traditional form.
The 'times of the Gentiles' is a duration concept from Judaism about the whole end of time. It goes to the end, to the final judgement. In Mt 23:15, you can see Judaism trying to get everyone to follow the law and worship in Jerusalem, but Eph 3:5-6 tells us that the nations come into the promise in Israel 'through the Gospel.'
Yes, 11:1-2 says Paul is a good example that there is always a remnant that believes, no matter what the wider race-nation does. So is the incident with Elisha. Paul tried to prod or urge the rest of his countrymen to be evangelists in chs 10-11 (how will the nations hear, unless some are sent?), but knew that only a few would be saved, v11:14. Because 'even though they keep hearing and seeing, they would not understand and I heal them' Is 66 in Acts 28. The ones who believe the Redeemer came to Zion and took away their sins (cp John's first announcements) are in Israel, and saved.
Just so you know, my underlying premise is that the things Jesus taught during the 40 days about the OT are found in the first quotes of Acts, the earliest and closest record to what was learned in those 40 days. Everything we say about these topics must stick very, very close to that. From ch 2--15 there are about 20 passages.
Thanks for the interaction! It's stimulating.
That's true; it's steep! Thank God for Christ being able to fulfill all righteousness.
Apparently what Paul was saying was that on this side of the Spirit coming, the Law (or going to it directly) can be harmful and 'sting.' It can be a yoke and a burden. He would know, he grew up on that.
It seems to me that we are saying the same thing in different words.
In Lk, 21:24.... Jesus speaks of future events, including the destruction of Jerusalem and His return.
He says that “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” .
A similar phrase is found in Romans 11:25, which says.....
“A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” .
The Old Testament does not contain this exact phrase, but there are references that seem to match up.
Ezekiel 30:3 points to.........
“a time of doom for the nations” in connection with the Day of the Lord.
Daniel’s series of visions deals with Gentile world powers and their role in God’s plan for the earth. Nebuchadnezzar’s image of gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay in Daniel 2:31–45. That Scripture represents successive Gentile kingdoms that will dominate until Christ returns and establishes His reign.
Daniel’s vision of the four beasts in Daniel 7:1–27 likewise speaks of four kings, or nations, which will dominate for a time until Christ comes to rule forever.
The vision of the ram and the goat in Dan. 8:1-26 gives even more detail about these Gentile rulers and the time involved in their dominion. In each of these passages, the Gentiles have dominion over the world, including the Jewish people, for a time, but God will ultimately subdue them all and establish His own kingdom once and for all.
Each prophecy culminates with a reference to Christ’s kingdom, so the “times” of these Gentile rulers would be all the years between the Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar and the glorious return of Christ to establish His kingdom. We are now living in “the times of the Gentiles,” that is, in the era of Gentile domination.
Now, when we examine the book of Revelation, we find similar references to the time of Gentile dominion ending with the return of Christ.
In Revelation 11:2, John indicates that Jerusalem will be under Gentile rule, even though the temple has been restored. The armies of the Beast are destroyed by the Lord in Revelation 19:17–19, just before the millennial reign of Christ is initiated.
Blessing always !
That is my point, though, Major. Not yours. There is some reason outside the passage that you are doing that. That is not what exegetic work is. You are bringing it in, even though it already has a normal meaning. It has a perfectly normal meaning that was known in the 1st century when it terminated and which Caiaphas tried to stop from happening; not a successful plan. History provides the understanding that that last period was so momentous that God tried for a generation to appeal to Israel, but they refused. Thus there are dozens of times when Jesus warned that generation to wake up, to see, to grasp.
From what I have read of you, then, the misunderstood 'mystery' is inserted so that the end happens in our future. But the mystery is not that Gentiles would believe or that there would be a faith-based fellowship for all nations; there always was a faithful remnant, Rom 11:1-4. The mystery is that it would not come about 'through the Law' (Mt 23:15), but through faith in the Gospel
Your method is done to 9:24, too, making there be 2 atonements instead of one. I can't make that match the whole letter of Hebrews.
Thanks, and your first line is important.
I have a delay view though, and it has not been spelled out here but in its own place. Put simply:
*material like Matt 24 to v29 is about 1st century Judea. In the normal sense: you (those disciples) will see the answers to your 3 questions in your generation.
*at v29, the expectation is that the whole universe would be judged, and the NHNE take their place. It is marked by 'after this (the chaos in Judea)'. Notice that before 29 is 1st century Judean; after 29 is universal. (Later Jesus would come back to 'readiness' instructions, and you can't tell which, nor does it matter).
*But a delay is allowed. There are 3 reasons or indications:
1, only the Father knows about the final day of judgement. You can find this paralleled in how Paul describes the close of the kingdom in I Cor 15.
2, the Master might return at one of 4 times, in Mk 13, his version of the same talk by Jesus
3, 2 Peter 3. It's actually a chapter about this. The scoffers doubt the 2nd coming, and Peter has to explain the delay.
I don't know if anyone else has worked things out like this, but I find the material collapses entirely otherwise. Either you have very direct, vital warnings going oddly to people X000 years away (he doesn't sound like that, and they don't say 'nice to know; we'll store it aside') or you can't explain why the world didn't end soon after 70 AD.
A readers should note that some instructions given in Mt24 before v29 are already given in ch 10 about the conditions of going out on the 2x2 mission journeys. They have the same 1st cent. Judean feel and details.
Why would Daniel 2 mention the Roman empire and then insert a delay--when Jesus said the kingdom is here, at hand, upon you, in your midst?
Similarly, I don't quite understand why anything needs to go beyond the normal succession, and Dan 9 is broken to do so as well.
I do not agree with your thesis Decoder. As you are aware.....we are not allowed to debate Preterism, however you continually push that agenda.
Personally.....I would aprreciate it if you could stop pushing your agenda in almost every post.
But to your last post I referenced above, the specific events Jesus discusses cannot be completely, and literally, fulfilled by your preterist view. It is just not possible!
In trying to match the events of A.D. 70 with those in Matthew 24, critical details are either slightly off or are missing entirely. This imperfect match suggests that the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is only a foreshadowing of the very detailed prophecy in Matthew 24, with the literal fulfillment determined for the end time.
The use of a partial fulfillment for a contemporary event, with a complete fulfillment waiting until the end time, is a common technique used throughout scripture. This is what we see here. That is what all the Old Test. prophets did. Their prophecies had a short term effect and a long term view and most of the long term views have yet to take place.
I agree Major
Because we don't accept God's word as Him speaking to us, ppl twist ,re-arrange,pic & choose, whatever they think will make what they have to say TRUTH!
Jesus said " sanctify them by your word,your word is TRUTH".
Furthermore the Holy Spirit is our teacher,he lights the way in the word that God speaks to each of us!
Because we don't accept God's word as Him speaking to us, ppl twist ,re-arrange,pic & choose, whatever they think will make what they have to say TRUTH!
Jesus said " sanctify them by your word,your word is TRUTH".
Furthermore the Holy Spirit is our teacher,he lights the way in the word that God speaks to each of us!
Agreed.
May I say to you that a professor a very long time ago answered the question posed to him of.....
Why do people resist the truth when it is plainly right in front of them?????
He said something that has stuck with me the rest of my life as profoundly true.........
"You see young man, we like what we know, even if what we know is wrong and not Biblical, we tend to stick with it because we do not want to know the truth. You see, the truth of God's Word causes us to CHANGE what we know which means we were wrong and no one wants to admit that they were wrong".
After reading your OP it seems we are on the same page, as long as all the relevant Scriptures on a specific topic has been considered, and critical thinking principles applied - which I'm sure you will agree with. (I'm not an intellectual 'brain box', but I do try to understand exactly what the Scriptures actually mean.)
For instance, Matthew 5:39 teaches us that we should not resist evil, but turn the other cheek. If I singled out that specific verse and interpreted it literally it would seem as if God expects me to allow others to abuse me.
If we combine that verse with Proverbs 4:23 we see the Scriptures also advise us to guard (protect) our hearts for our own good.
So, after meditating and praying about these two seemingly contradictory verses I concluded God does not want us to allow others to abuse us, but at the same time we should not retaliate either.
This is sort of how I get to understand the Scriptures.
If I can be convinced that I've drawn the wrong conclusion about a specific topic, I repent and change it. I'd rather believe God's truth than trust in my own understanding.
Blessings!
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Matthew 5:39 is not teaching "pacifism". When we read the whole council of God we see just the opposite.
Even God in the flesh made a whip and scourged the people in the temple and turned over their tables and ran them out phycically!
The “slap” that Jesus says we should endure is Jesus here speaking of personal slights of any kind. The slap (or the “smiting,” as the KJV has it) does not have to involve literal, physical violence. Even in our day, a “slap in the face” is a metaphor for an unexpected insult or offense. Did someone insult you? Let him, Jesus says. Are you shocked and offended? Don’t be. And don’t return insult for insult. Turn the other cheek.
Matthew 5:39 is not teaching "pacifism". When we read the whole council of God we see just the opposite.
Even God in the flesh made a whip and scourged the people in the temple and turned over their tables and ran them out phycically!
The “slap” that Jesus says we should endure is Jesus here speaking of personal slights of any kind. The slap (or the “smiting,” as the KJV has it) does not have to involve literal, physical violence. Even in our day, a “slap in the face” is a metaphor for an unexpected insult or offense. Did someone insult you? Let him, Jesus says. Are you shocked and offended? Don’t be. And don’t return insult for insult. Turn the other cheek.
Even God in the flesh made a whip and scourged the people in the temple and turned over their tables and ran them out phycically!
The “slap” that Jesus says we should endure is Jesus here speaking of personal slights of any kind. The slap (or the “smiting,” as the KJV has it) does not have to involve literal, physical violence. Even in our day, a “slap in the face” is a metaphor for an unexpected insult or offense. Did someone insult you? Let him, Jesus says. Are you shocked and offended? Don’t be. And don’t return insult for insult. Turn the other cheek.
Exactly! The whole council of God - that is what I was trying to get at
.If we werent to know what God wants,his personality, his mercies, grace,love and his character, then he wouldnt have made sure its HS insired pages survived until today.
It is by Jesus ( the word) that we are redeemed.
Those precious pages are filled with all the things God wants from us as his children. It is His maturing of us as a good Father.
He hasn't shrouded EVERYTHING in mysteries for He wants us to be his light unto a fallen man. We must study,study and pray for,we must find his will. I take from Gen.to Rev. as the literal word of God addressed to me
Ask and it shall be given,seek and ye shall find,knock and it shall be opened is our literal biblical invitation to know God in his fullness!
It is by Jesus ( the word) that we are redeemed.
Those precious pages are filled with all the things God wants from us as his children. It is His maturing of us as a good Father.
He hasn't shrouded EVERYTHING in mysteries for He wants us to be his light unto a fallen man. We must study,study and pray for,we must find his will. I take from Gen.to Rev. as the literal word of God addressed to me
Ask and it shall be given,seek and ye shall find,knock and it shall be opened is our literal biblical invitation to know God in his fullness!
