What Is God?

You may have been told that, but what makes you think that it's true?
The Bible says no such thing, so I could easily assume that your source is talking through his hat (so to speak).
 
Glomung said:
You may have been told that, but what makes you think that it's true?
The Bible says no such thing, so I could easily assume that your source is talking through his hat (so to speak).
Click to expand...
Because I want to understand how the bible is interpreted. That's why I came here, so as not to assume anything. Were there predators before the fall of man or not?
 
Of course there were predators before the fall. A lion (for example) is an obligate carnivore, it cannot eat anything other than fresh meat.

This does not even get to the issue of the population explosion and environmental devastation that would occur with a landscape covered in immortal vegetarians breeding freely. Within just a few generations it would be standing room only with nothing but stripped trees and packed animals as far as they eye could see.
 
Glomung said:
Of course there were predators before the fall. A lion (for example) is an obligate carnivore, it cannot eat anything other than fresh meat.

This does not even get to the issue of the population explosion and environmental devastation that would occur with a lanscape covered in immortal vegetarians breeding freely. Within just a few generations it would be standing room only with nothing but stripped trees and packed animals as far as they eye could see.
Click to expand...
So now I don't know who to believe about the bible. I made the same argument as yourself and was told that lions were vegetarian before the fall. How can I understand Genesis if a simple matter like this is disputed?
 
It all depends on whether you are a Bible literalist or not, and the assumptions that you make based on your beliefs.
IMNSHO Bible literalists are forced to make a host of unsupported assumptions to make their assumed paradigm make any sense whatsoever.

The Bible is made up of several types of records
1. third person accounts and hearsay - i.e Genesis (written long after the accounts by people who did not witness any of it)
2. first person accounts - i.e. Matthew (written by the people who experienced it)
3. prophecy - i.e Revelations (written by people who were told what would happen in the future)
 
I would be a Christian if there were no Bible at all. I do not derive my understanding of reality from the Bible, though I do enjoy the reading much of it and find it enlightening. There is much widom to be derived from it, but many try to turn the Bible into something it is not. The Bible is not the "Big Book of Everything".
The Bible does not touch on the vast majority of reality at all, and we should not pretend that it does.
 
Glomung said:
I would be a Christian if there were no Bible at all. I do not derive my understanding of reality from the Bible, though I do enjoy the reading much of it and find it enlightening. There is much widom to be derived from it, but many try to turn the Bible into something it is not. The Bible is not the "Big Book of Everything".
The Bible does not touch on the vast majority of reality at all, and we should not pretend that it does.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I'll leave this topic to the original discussion now.
 
Glomung said:
It all depends on whether you are a Bible literalist or not, and the assumptions that you make based on your beliefs.
IMNSHO Bible literalists are forced to make a host of unsupported assumptions to make their assumed paradigm make any sense whatsoever.

The Bible is made up of several types of records
1. third person accounts and hearsay - i.e Genesis (written long after the accounts by people who did not witness any of it)
2. first person accounts - i.e. Matthew (written by the people who experienced it)
3. prophecy - i.e Revelations (written by people who were told what would happen in the future)
Click to expand...

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:16)

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

lsigh.................... All scripture is given by one, that is God through the Holy Spirit who saw everything................

The wisdom around here is just overwhelming at times. :rolleyes:
 
TubbyTubby said:
So now I don't know who to believe about the bible. I made the same argument as yourself and was told that lions were vegetarian before the fall. How can I understand Genesis if a simple matter like this is disputed?
Click to expand...
Lol yes the Bible is quite clear that animals didn't run around killing eachother before the fall.

1st CHAPTER OF THE BIBLE

Genesis 1:30
30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
 
TubbyTubby said:
And Gods original creation of paradise where no creature preyed on another is less silly?
Click to expand...

Funny but I never read that regarding Eden...maybe or perhaps in the garden area (eastward IN Eden) but Adam is expected to tend the garden (would not include pruning and such?) I think that death for Adam and Eve is what would not have happened. MMan was made a living nephesh (soul) and many animals also had or were nephesh (living creatures) but man was different...he was created in the image of God (God has/is Spirit and so man had/has spirit...which is given by God) and was in His likeness (having dominion and able to make choices)...but death in an absolute sense? No! IMO (and that is all one can have since the story does not address this) Plants and probably most animals had limitations on their existence and one depended on the other (like the idea of the food chain) just as they do now (we now being made to endure on predominately a beastly level until born from above)...

For example. even if all animals were entirely meant to be vegetarian they are still bringing about the cessation of life for the plants...make sense?

Just my $.02

brother Paul
 
Brother Paul said:
Funny but I never read that regarding Eden...maybe or perhaps in the garden area (eastward IN Eden) but Adam is expected to tend the garden (would not include pruning and such?) I think that death for Adam and Eve is what would not have happened. MMan was made a living nephesh (soul) and many animals also had or were nephesh (living creatures) but man was different...he was created in the image of God (God has/is Spirit and so man had/has spirit...which is given by God) and was in His likeness (having dominion and able to make choices)...but death in an absolute sense? No! IMO (and that is all one can have since the story does not address this) Plants and probably most animals had limitations on their existence and one depended on the other (like the idea of the food chain) just as they do now (we now being made to endure on predominately a beastly level until born from above)...

For example. even if all animals were entirely meant to be vegetarian they are still bringing about the cessation of life for the plants...make sense?

Just my $.02

brother Paul
Click to expand...
Plants are organic, but they are not really ALIVE, so to speak.

I saw somewhere that they placed meat chunks and kelp in the water next to a shark, and the shark actually chose the kelp! No wonder "predators" have such sharp teeth, it's because they need to rip and grind through tough plants.

I think there was NO death before the fall, meaning things with blood/life, aka animals and humans. Plants can be eaten, they just grow back up again.
 
TubbyTubby said:
Were there predators before the fall of man or not?
Click to expand...

If they can be traced to the fallen angels in a pre-Adam earth, yes. But when God cleaned the earth up, no. Or if you take the six day creation literally, no.

Gen 1:29-30 Then God said, “Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food. And I have given every green plant as food for all the wild animals, the birds in the sky, and the small animals that scurry along the ground—everything that has life.” And that is what happened.

Here is what happens when the Earth resumes to the state before sin Isaiah 11:7 The cattle will graze among bears. Cubs and calves will lie down together. And lions will eat grass as the livestock do.
 
Brother Paul said:
There is no evidence for gods. That's all.

Sure there is. You just will not accept empirical evidence as valid…

Now consider what is empirical evidence…Empirical = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic; originating in or based on observation or experience; relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory ; capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment.

Now no one can “prove” there is a God, gods, or anything outside of the natural order by merely natural means, again THAT”S ABSURD to even imagine such a thing….

So no one can “prove” by your limited definition of proof that there is a God but that however does not mean there is not evidence for such a being…

All we absolutely know for sure (scientifically speaking) is NO ONE can “prove” by any means (empirical or purely material) that there IS NO GOD…I am sure you agree with that (I hope)

Now listen carefully…because millions throughout the ages have personally experienced God (as well as other phenomena outside of what YOU would call the natural order), observed the effects of such a being, tested what He has claimed and found it to be true…(regardless of whether or not you have)! This historically verifiable fact alone (not even considering other things like the purely prescient nature of Biblical prophecy, and other matters) IS empirical evidence that there is a God…

Any open minded objective person with a shred of intellectual integrity cannot dismiss the mountain of empirical evidence and then accept and live by premises for which there is none and truly be a rational person…

I know you can rationalize, that’s not what I am saying, I am saying you accept a number of premises without a single shred of evidence they are true yet reject many for which there is evidence they are true…

Let me pose a scenario to you (all this by the way is to help you learn to actually use critical thinking not ever thinking up new criticisms, there is a stark difference)

All of science (and I KNOW this is a fact) and ALL scientists only experience, have ONLY observed, can ONLY demonstrate, and ALL tests done or devised ONLY show that life comes from previous life…

Evolutionary Biologists, Vance and Miller, in their book, Biology for You (Philadelphia, Lippincott, l963), admit that, “All the forms of plants and animals that we have studied in biology, produce their young from their own bodies, and in no other way“. Did you hear that? They said, “in no other way“!

The contemporary Encyclopedia Americana (Grolier, Scholastic, 2000) says, “Biologists are now not only in virtual unanimous agreement that all life derives from preceding life, but that the parent organism and it’s offspring are of the same kind“.

From this smattering of scientific testimony, a definite conclusion comes to light! Contrary to the popularized, politicized, neo-Darwinian dogma… within a given phyla, members only reproduce other members of the same phyla from relations with members of their own phyla! There simply are no biological examples of Darwin’s poly-phyletic morphism anywhere in the world after almost 200 years of alleged scientific consideration and 100 years of collecting fossilized examples. Never experienced, never observed, never demonstrated, and ALL tests refuting it…yet sold and imposed on innocently inquiring minds through drill and repetition that it is an established fact…

When Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister, once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State (or in this case the educational neo-Darwinian pedagogues) can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the (these power mongers) to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy …”

This is the case here…for if life ONLY comes from previous life then there was a life (a force; a quality of reality) that precedes what we know of as bios/life here on earth. In is an undeniable conclusion which MUST BE repressed and disallowed from the public awareness or else the whole neo-Darwinian house of cards falls…if life did not eventually evolve from non-living matter, then there is no basis for the neo-Darwinian concept of life (as a purely randomly occurring chemical accident).

Now I have presented a logical, scientifically supportable, argument here…

Therefore, it IS REASONABLE to assume (if one has not had the pleasure of the experienced observeable and testable premise) there may be a God(s) because empirical evidence is in fact the #1 BEST quality of evidence one can obtain…all else is only commentary. And it is equally NOT REASONABLE to assume something to be true that utterly lacks empirical evidence and all tests fail to demonstrate (in fact outright negate)…

Re-read this and think on it a bit. Use your reasoning capability because true critical thinking skills must take into account ALL data, not rejecting the inconvenient or contrary, and shape the hypothesis or “theory” (even by scientific definition) according to the data we actually know or can demonstrate.

Ever thinking up new criticisms in response to something we do not want to believe is not being honest with the evidence (thus closed minded as one who does not agree could rightly accuse YECs)
Click to expand...

This is a very confused post.

Just one question: so it is all about faith?
 
Hi Brother Paul, you obviously have a much better understanding of the bible than some of the others.

Regarding your post you made about cancer, cancer is often fatal. Many people and quite probably you, me and definitely someone we know will succumb to it.
 
goggles said:
Hi Brother Paul, you obviously have a much better understanding of the bible than some of the others.

Regarding your post you made about cancer, cancer is often fatal. Many people and quite probably you, me and definitely someone we know will succumb to it.
Click to expand...

Sadly that is true but did you get the analogy to how sometimes killing is not murder
 
I did get that analogy and the idea you put forward in your post is often one where clear lines cannot and should not be drawn so simply and/or lightly.

But I did get the general idea, yes.
 
I didn't read the whole thread.

Just my input on the op.

I like how God(YHWH) is a creator and a lot of us have that trait of being creative.

I like how He lets us have free will.

I like how He associates things in a family perspective. It's a clue to one of His goals, to reproduce Himself, through us. Many might disagree with that though. Just ask yourself 2 questions- What are we going to do for eternity? And why are there many planets and universes?
 
dUmPsTeR said:
I didn't read the whole thread.

Just my input on the op.

I like how God(YHWH) is a creator and a lot of us have that trait of being creative.

I like how He lets us have free will.

I like how He associates things in a family perspective. It's a clue to one of His goals, to reproduce Himself, through us. Many might disagree with that though. Just ask yourself 2 questions- What are we going to do for eternity? And why are there many planets and universes?
Click to expand...
Are you Mormon?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top