No problem my brother. I have more time than money.
Of course I have to disagree with your comment of............
"I have no views on the rapture except to say it is a scripturally non-existant doctrine."
God IMHO has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. He has placed a "typt" or a "picture" all through the Scriptures.
Genesis 5:24
"Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away. "
In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46)
There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, “Go and make disciples (students) of all men.” (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. It’s the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.
Genesis 19:23....Lot had to leave Sodom
"But flee there quickly, because I can not do anything until you reach it".
Now.....In Daniel 3, WHERE WAS DANIEL????
King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Daniel’s three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon.But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you don’t know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you don’t know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story it’s as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.
Isaiah 26:1:19-21
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.
See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.
Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lord’s intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It can’t be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it can’t be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of God’s wrath, not before it.
1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
(Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)
John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about.
In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His father’s house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is.
See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)
I’m convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.“ (1 Thes. 4:15).
There are many more but I will let you digest those for awhile.
Hi Major - I know of the quotes you cite, and I am repasting them here simply so I can keep track of the conversation in my own mind and to focus on a small portion of what you have written.
1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
(Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)
The bodies will rise? Which bodies. Even if a person believes in a spiritual body - it will not rise because it has not died. The word "rise" means to stand up.
This may be a new thought to some.
1 Thes 4:16-17 and 5:9 suggest that the body Paul is speaking of is not referring to the spiritual body after physical death because that body has no need to rise because it was never dead.
Now this verse also suggests that we (people) dwell (or live) in the dust. Dust is of course what we are made from, and what we will return to as is seen when God formed man from Dust and breathed into Him.
Isaiah 26:1:19-21
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
When you associate Isaiah 26:19 (your dead will live their bodies will rise) with 1 Thess 4:16 (The dead in Christ will rise first) you are proving my point - that the "sleepers" (of 1 Thess 4:13 ...) are simply "sleeping" in sin and need to be woke up.
They can also be referred to as dead in sins and transgressions as the following pasted verse illustrates. You are I am sure familiar with the verse that says wake up oh sleeper and rise from the dead
Ephesians 5:14. -
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith,
Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.
Isaiah 26:19 shows that the dead bodies rise. Jesus physical body did rise. A spiritual body has no need to rise because it was never dead.
You link Isaiah 26:19 with 1 Thess 4:16. Here you are suggesting that the bodies that rise (which must be physical bodies since spiritual bodies have no need to rise) are the same bodies referred to in 1 Thess 4:16.
This suggests that the so-called rapture portion of scripture is referring to the resurrection concept as it is referred to in Colossians 3:1. To take this thought a little farther then the "sleepers" have to be "asleep in the physical body".
Now keep in mind that I am saying here is based on your linking Isaiah 26:19 with 1 Thess 4:16 (by the way I agree with this linking of the two verses). This referance to "sleep" is the of falling into (or back into) sin (which we refer to as backslidding). The following referances illustrate this concept.
I use the phrase "back into sin" or backslidden because the people in 1 Thess 4 are referred to as "asleep in Christ", meaning that they were awake previously when they came to Christ and originally "woke up" but then fell asleep in sin.
Romans 13:11
And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to
awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith,
Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.
In the above reference you are linking an old testament verse (Isaiah 26:19) with a new testament one (1 Thess 4:16) and this suggests that you consider that the resurrection referance from Isaiah is the same resurrection mentioned in the so-called rapture verses of 1 Thess 14:16.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
Paul said in the following verses - "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
This all makes sense in Pauls mind, but we have to put the scriptures (or individual Pauline letters) together to see what He understood about the "body".
2 Corinthians 5:6
Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are
absent from the
Lord
2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be at home with the
Lord.
This would seem to indicate that Paul was not speaking about any type of "body" after physical death. I say this because Paul said while we are at "home in the body". Meaning that He included Himself group of people that were presently at home and in their bodies. Because He included Himself in the group, and He was at the time this letter was written in His Physical body. He was at that time in His physical body on earth. This is the perspective He is writing from.
Now Paul also stated that His students were already "resurrected or risen from the dead" in Colossians 3:1.
Colossians 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
So what does that mean? As you probably know Paul was referring to the resurrected life or being raised from the dead. Of course this resurrection is the spiritual resurrection from the condition of being dead in Sins and transgressions.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The "body" of sin (or the body that commits sin) will be destroyed as we stop sinning. We do not die physically as we stop sinning in fact we are being renewed every day.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The word "likewise" in Rm 6:11 suggests that Jesus physical death on earth and His physical resurrection on Earth are being compared to our resurrection in the "body".
A Christians spiritual resurrection is (by the use of the word "likewise") being compared to the death and resurrection that Jesus experienced on Earth.
As Paul said in Rm 6:6 while expressing the same thought He said that as we cease to sin our body of sin is destroyed.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
If we are to walk as Jesus walked ( 1 Jn 2:6 ) then we too must experience a resurrection on earth and in the body we have at this time, as Paul alluded to in Colossians 3:1.
1 John 2:6
he that saith
he abideth in him ought himself also to
walk even
as he walked.
Now placing this understanding in the following verses.
1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
(Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)
It becomes apparent that Paul is referring to an earthly resurrection. As an aside notice that the verses suggest that we will meet Jesus in the air. We will have no need of air when we are absent from the physical body.
Now to go a little farther (I know this will challange you to think outside the tradition doctrinal box) - we are putting on Christ in this life.
Romans 13:14
But
put ye
on the Lord Jesus
Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into
Christ did
put on Christ.
We are being clothed with Christ as the verse pasted above suggest. If we while in this body (corruptible) put on Christ (incorruption) or stop sinning then the corruptible has been clothed with the incorruptible. It is not a small fact that we are told to do this while we are in this physical body. We are told to put on Christ (incorruption) while we are at Home in the physical body.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I know what this suggests in your mind. That I am challanging the concept which states that 1 Cor 15 is addressing the concept of a spiritual bodyafter physical death, and that is correct - I am challanging this concept, and refuting it.
Paul is challanging this traditional understanding as well - by saying that the corruptible must put on incorruption.
Sorry this is so long - I try to be concise for the most part.
Respectfully - Brian