What Will God Do with Christ's enemies?

[Siloam]

Christ has no enemy in man, even though many men d

I believe that men can be enemies of God. We are born enemies of God until through Jesus we are reconciled to Him.

Matthew 12:30
Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

Romans 5:10
For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.

James 4:4
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Hi Euphemia! I always appreciate seeing your posts!

I may not have made myself clear (I know what I meant but there is little to enlighten anyone else).

With respect to the scriptures you posted.

I looked at the commentary link associated with each verse I believe it's Matthew Henry's [and I know that commentaries are not scripture and are only authoritative in the sense that I may be called a (fallible) authority on whatever I may be deemed an expert]. I will admit that in areas of scripture, Matthew Henry's commentary is a much more reliable authority than I.

Matt 12:30
That commentary makes it clear that it is the sinner under Satan's power. I would submit that it is Satan, not the person being controlled that is the problem. I would also point out that the enemy's power is opposing our Lord, not our Lord opposing the sinner.

Romans 5:10
That is a little more difficult to use to defend by general assertion, particularly where he states: "But God designed to deliver from sin, and to work a great change. While the sinful state continues, God loathes the sinner, and the sinner loathes God" I know I am stubborn, but I still think that even when wrathful, the Lord loves all. I do point out that the commentary's first paragraph is more about the sinner being opposed to God than God opposing the sinner. I know my love for my sons does not measure up to God's love for us, but I can tell you that one that Loves can feel wrath toward the object of that love, particularly when the one being loved is not living up to their potential. Being a loving God does not make God able to stop being a Holy God so His love had to find a way to reconcile the sinners to Him. That is why we will be celebrating the resurrection soon.

James 4:4
Again, the issue is not God warring against sinners, but that the sinner is warring against God. It is the people that have made God their enemy. It is the Lord trying to bring them back.

You can also take my post too far, but I do not identify the sinner by his sin. Even when the only thing that I think I know about a sinner is his particular sin, I school myself to remember that Christ died for such as these.

 

[Euphemia]

Thank you Siloam for your kindness...I do appreciate your many wonderful posts and insights!

I also don't think we disagree too badly, here!

I do not believe any sinner is identified by God by his sin. It is his position before Him as unrighteous that He sees. He is still an enemy of God by virtue of his position, but that does not negate or extinguish God's great love for him, which is what breaks His heart and spurs His patience on to allow His Son to delay His coming, so that more will come who will come.

 

[Siloam]

Thank you Siloam for your kindness...I do appreciate your many wonderful posts and insights!

I do not believe any sinner is identified by God by his sin. It is his position before Him as unrighteous that He sees. He is still an enemy of God by virtue of his position, but that does not negate or extinguish God's great love for him, which is what breaks His heart and spurs His patience on to allow His Son to delay His coming, so that more will come who will come.

I think that although we may use different words that you and I are in general, if not in close agreement. It's the many different tastes and textures that make a hearty stew.

 

[brixken7]

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,” (Matt. 25:46).

“And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (2 Thess. 1:9).

“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name,” (Rev. 14:11).

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,” (Rev. 20:10).

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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We don't want to get into a debate about the meaning of "aionios" do we?
Let me just say that there are quite a few translations that NEVER speak of "eternal" punishment or "hell" (and for good reason).
Now about Revelation 20:
verse 15: "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."
verse 16: "And these proud, hateful sinners, who have thwarted God's will throughout their lives with their stubborn free will, shall choose to suffer throughout eternity unspeakable pain in the midst of total darkness and unquenchable fire."

Terrifying isn't it!
At least, it would be if it were true. But there is no verse 16, and the verses that do follow verse 15 arguably imply a resurrection from "the second death" (the Lake of Fire) since death will be "no more" (verse 4) and God will make "all new" (verse 5)! Yea, death will be "destroyed" (I Corinthians 15:26).

 

[Euphemia]

I think that although we may use different words that you and I are in general, if not in close agreement. It's the many different tastes and textures that make a hearty stew.

Lovely word picture!

 

[Euphemia]

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We don't want to get into a debate about the meaning of "aionios" do we?

No we don't, and neither should you, because that is the typical enemy-inspired, Universalist tack.

 

[Euphemia]

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At least, it would be if it were true. But there is no verse 16, and the verses that do follow verse 15 arguably imply a resurrection from "the second death" (the Lake of Fire) since death will be "no more" (verse 4) and God will make "all new" (verse 5)! Yea, death will be "destroyed" (I Corinthians 15:26).

The second death will experience no resurrection. The death that will be no more is physical death. However, there is an eternal death or dying for all those who are deemed unrighteous by virtue of the fact that they have not received the blood of Jesus applied to their sins. They will spend eternity in the company of death, and sin, and Satan and his millions of minions.

You cannot build a doctrine out of an implication, especially when there isn't one. It's extremely dangerous, spiritually.

 

[brixken7]

Who in the entire world, past or present really "hates the thought of God saving everyone"??? God Himself says that He desires that NO ONE should perish, but that all should come to salvation

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I also desire no one to perish forever; I desire the same thing as God, to see everyone saved -- and God says He "...will have all men to be saved..." (I Timothy 2:4). Notice He doesn't say He "hopes" to save everyone, but He "will" have all men to be saved and God "works all things after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11) -- not man's will. "No plan" (of God) "can be thwarted" (Job 42:2; NIV; Isaiah 46:10).

And, frankly, I'm not interested in the false translations that speak of 'eternal' punishment.

But apparently not all professing Christians desire the salvation of all. Believe it or not, in Christian history there have even been those who look forward to observing the "wicked" burning throughout eternity in "hell." It was thought of as part of their entertainment they shall have in heaven!

 

[CCW95A]

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I also desire no one to perish forever; I desire the same thing as God, to see everyone saved -- and God says He "...will have all men to be saved..." (I Timothy 2:4). Notice He doesn't say He "hopes" to save everyone, but He "will" have all men to be saved and God "works all things after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11) -- not man's will. "No plan" (of God) "can be thwarted" (Job 42:2; NIV; Isaiah 46:10).

And, frankly, I'm not interested in the false translations that speak of 'eternal' punishment.

But apparently not all professing Christians desire the salvation of all. Believe it or not, in Christian history there have even been those who look forward to observing the "wicked" burning throughout eternity in "hell." It was thought of as part of their entertainment they shall have in heaven!

brixken7, this topic has been talked about many many times on this forum, and it never does any good, especially if someone thinks the Bible has "false" "interpretations". Without that base we have nothing to talk about. It does no good to cast Gods perils to someone who will not receive them as truth.
In other words, it is a waste of time not only for us, but also for you. You will not convince anyone of what you are saying, if they are a true Christian.

 

[Klub]

The greek word used in 1 timothy 2:4 is the word Thelo, meaning will, desire or to love.

God originally created adam, and the world, to not have sin, or death, but he also allowed man to have free will. God is still in control, that never changes, but man still has a free will.

Without an eternal consequence, there is no need for a savior.

 

[brixken7]

As for the Lamentations 2 reference, the footstool is Israel, His people, with whom He dwelled.

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No, Euphemia, that cannot be true.
The Footstool Prophecy reads, "Sit thou at my right hand , until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Psalm 110:1).

"...until I make thine enemies thy Israel" ?

"Dwelling place" makes sense.
Your idea doesn't.
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[Euphemia]

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I also desire no one to perish forever; I desire the same thing as God, to see everyone saved -- and God says He "...will have all men to be saved..." (I Timothy 2:4). Notice He doesn't say He "hopes" to save everyone, but He "will" have all men to be saved and God "works all things after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11) -- not man's will. "No plan" (of God) "can be thwarted" (Job 42:2; NIV; Isaiah 46:10).

No, He says He DESIRES all men to be saved. Let's post the actual verse, OK?
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).

And, frankly, I'm not interested in the false translations that speak of 'eternal' punishment.

Yes, you've made it clear you are antibiblical.

But apparently not all professing Christians desire the salvation of all. Believe it or not, in Christian history there have even been those who look forward to observing the "wicked" burning throughout eternity in "hell." It was thought of as part of their entertainment they shall have in heaven!

You apparently have run into some unpersonable people, but take it from me...any born again believer who loves as God has given us to love, has a heart for the lost, and the compassion He has for them. So, you cannot adopt a false doctrine on the basis of a few misguided people who have yet to appreciate God's love well. I will stand against any promotion of Universalism here.

Watching.

 

[Euphemia]

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No, Euphemia, that cannot be true.
The Footstool Prophecy reads, "Sit thou at my right hand , until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Psalm 110:1).

"...until I make thine enemies thy Israel" ?

"Dwelling place" makes sense.
Your idea doesn't.
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You need to have a discerning heart when reading scripture if you want to glean truth from certain uses of a word. Pray before reading, asking God to direct you. The concept is not always interchangeable. Check the context.

Psalm 110's usage is definitely about placing the enemies of Christ under his feet, just like one who would stomp something underneath his foot.

H1916
הדם
hădôm
had-ome'
From an unused root meaning to stamp upon; a foot stool: - [foot-] stool.

H7272
רגל
regel
reh'-gel
From H7270; a foot (as used in walking); by implication a step; by euphemism the pudenda: - X be able to endure, X according as, X after, X coming, X follow, ([broken-]) foot ([-ed, -stool]), X great toe, X haunt, X journey, leg, + piss, + possession, time.


I do believe you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and being purposely resistant.

 

[Glomung]

What it comes down to is that God cannot have mass murderers and rapists running around loose in Heaven.
Just as we have our Earthly prisons to house the evil and degenerate so they don't cause more harm, so God also has His prison for those who hate Him and refuse to be redeemed.

 

[brixken7]

Staff Notice
This is the second warning! One more post which is not civil or demeaning will result in the closure of this thread.

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While I appreciate the moderators desire to keep everyone civil, courteous and respectful of one another, someone knowing the above rule who dislikes a certain thread COULD close it down just by being nasty a few times. Right?

 

[Euphemia]

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While I appreciate the moderators desire to keep everyone civil, courteous and respectful of one another, someone knowing the above rule who dislikes a certain thread COULD close it down just by being nasty a few times. Right?

Yep, it's happened to me. Haters do their thang!

 

[brixken7]

Yep, it's happened to me. Haters do their thang!

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Sorry, Euphemia.

 

[brixken7]

Interesting.... just curious... what can be reasons for a Universalist to convert a non-Universalist?

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Several reasons immediately come to mind.
First of all, it's been called "The Grandest Truth in the Bible," so it's great news to share -- the greatest! -- including what salvation includes.
(And it's not about going to heaven.)

Secondly, God has given us "the word of reconciliation" (II Corinthians 5:19), the fact that God is conciliated to the world through Christ (verse 18). He is not angry with the world, as some tell us ( e.g., "Sinners in the hands of an angry God").

Thirdly, some people have even lost their minds over worry about unsaved loved ones. They want to believe God will save everyone, but haven't the facts. It is a great comfort to people to know God is very loving and sovereign over all of His creation.