When Did Christ "forgive" Certain Old Testament Laws?

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I hear it said occasionally that many old testament laws, supposed no-nos, were no longer to be regarded as sinful - things like mixing textiles and eating shellfish - because Jesus cleared them. So which ones did he clear, and which are still sins, and where did he list them?

 

[Abdicate]

You have to understand why the law was given... it was given to prove that man cannot be righteous without God. From Adam to the acceptance of the Law, no one die because of sin except Adam's which is passed down to us. If you read from Passover to the day in which Israel accepted the Law NO ONE was feeble or died. In their arrogance they said "yea, we can keep the law" and as soon as Moses left to get the commandments, they built a golden calf. Up to this point, never in the HISTORY of Israel had they had any graven image. It was only AFTER the law was presented did they then break it. So, why did Jesus come? To fulfill the law. Since we are born into sin, we can NEVER EVER EVER be free of sin. Seeing that God demanded that man be perfect, but he's already born imperfect, the Father sent the Son to FULFILL the law.

What does this mean? The wages of sin is death. Adam sinned, we all die. Jesus came, being born of a virgin so as NOT to inherit sin, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross for OUR sins. The last word Jesus spoke was a business transactional word: IT IS PAID IN FULL. What was paid in full? Our sins. From Adam to the last baby born. So which laws did he fulfill? All of them. Now, does that mean that the law can/should be broken? Not at all. There are a lot of truths that will help us in this life by obeying the laws, just not for getting into heaven. Think about it, "don't lie". Is that gonna help in life? Certainly, we're not smart enough to remember all the lies so it's just easier to tell the truth. "Don't lust for your neighbor's wife"... is that helpful? You bet, he might have a brother named a Guido that's a gonna pay ya a visit! Through Christ, we are dead. If dead then no law can touch us. Does that mean we should go ahead and break them? Not at all. What Jesus did for us, is remove the inability to cease from sin. Now we can choose life instead of living death.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[aha]

A related question I have:

Am wondering , is the OT laws for the chosen people only, that is, for the Jews only?

 

[Abdicate]

A related question I have:

Am wondering , is the OT laws for the chosen people only, that is, for the Jews only?

Not at all. As I said, the law can benefit our daily lives. Do I keep the seder meal or separate my clothes to the same type? No. God fulfilled them all, but I think not lying nor cheating are still good laws to follow. God gave us common sense too. The laws were to show men it's impossible to keep, meaning they need a Saviour. Keep or not keeping the laws today is matter of choice. It has NOTHING to do with our destination after death. Jesus paid for it all. Jesus gave us the means to be free from sin, so why sin?

 

[aha]

The laws were to show men it's impossible to keep, meaning they need a Saviour.

I happen to agree to show men: but as I see it: to show the Jews first, they stumble so as salvation come unto the Gentiles...

The reason I asked is based on the following verses:

Romans 11:11King James Version (KJV)
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

John 4:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[Abdicate]

I happen to agree to show men: but as I see it: to show the Jews first, they stumble so as salvation come to the Gentiles...

The reason I asked is based on the following verses:

Romans 11:11King James Version (KJV)
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

John 4:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

And do you know why it was given to the Gentiles?

Romans 9:32 (KJV)
Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

From Adam to today, it's all and only about faith.

 

[TezriLi]

I hear it said occasionally that many old testament laws, supposed no-nos, were no longer to be regarded as sinful - things like mixing textiles and eating shellfish - because Jesus cleared them. So which ones did he clear, and which are still sins, and where did he list them?

Many people don't understand why we were told not to mix not textiles but specifically wool and linen fibers. See Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11. The high priestly garments were made of these materials, and just as we are not to try to copy the Temple incense, we are to recognize the holy, the separateness, of the high priestly garments and not try to mix them.

As far as not obeying Torah, I can't find any place in the whole Bible that says we no longer obey the teachings of Torah. People misunderstand Scripture in order to excuse them, and people ignore Scripture in order to excuse them, but there is no Scripture that says they are no longer necessary. In fact, in Deuteronomy, we are told what G-d thinks: unlike what we are told today, they are easy for us to keep.

 

[Abdicate]

Acts 10:11-15 (KJV)
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Romans 7:4 (KJV)
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I don't know how much plainer it can get. The law is death.

 

[TezriLi]

Acts 10:11-15 (KJV)
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

You have to read it all, not just stop when you think you have the answer you like. Read on. The dream is not about food; it is about people. He was instructed through the dream to treat PEOPLE with respect and not reject them. Please, Abdicate! Read on!!! I don't know how much plainer it can get.

Romans 7:4 (KJV)
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I don't know how much plainer it can get. The law is death.

Incredible, Abs. How many times does the Bible have to say that the Torah is LIFE, that it is GOOD, before you read it? I need to get dressed to go eat with my husband. If necessary, I will be back to this.

 

[Abdicate]

You have to read it all, not just stop when you think you have the answer you like. Read on. The dream is not about food; it is about people. He was instructed through the dream to treat PEOPLE with respect and not reject them. Please, Abdicate! Read on!!! I don't know how much plainer it can get.


Incredible, Abs. How many times does the Bible have to say that the Torah is LIFE, that it is GOOD, before you read it? I need to get dressed to go eat with my husband. If necessary, I will be back to this.

Indeed it's about people. But the Law says you cannot have anything to do with outsiders unless they convert to the Law. Since God chose to use food as an example shows what He already told Paul. Yes the Law is good, it's just that no one can keep all of it. It is the ministry of death according to the word of God. I'm sorry if this offends, but I didn't say it:

2 Corinthians 3:6-14 (KJV)
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

Paul's own words, the glorious Law was done away. It was a shadow of what He gave and freed us.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I just hear often that Jesus forgave certain Old Testament laws. But I'm just not aware of him doing that at all. I never assumed it to mean with his own death.

 

[TezriLi]

I just hear often that Jesus forgave certain Old Testament laws. But I'm just not aware of him doing that at all. I never assumed it to mean with his own death.

He didn't -- by His death or in any other way. That is taught by some, in order to excuse themselves from obeying G-d, but it is not true. Those teaching this often do not understand the word end when they read that Y'shua is the "end of the Law."

Paul continued to obey the law as an example to his contemporaries and for us (somewhere around Acts 20 or 22, I think). Y'shua said that we are not to dis0bey the Law, and He said that those who teach others it is all right to disobey it are least in His kingdom (Matthew 6 or 5, I think).

 

[TezriLi]

Indeed it's about people. But the Law says you cannot have anything to do with outsiders unless they convert to the Law. Since God chose to use food as an example shows what He already told Paul. Yes the Law is good, it's just that no one can keep all of it.

So G-d is wrong and you are right?

It is the ministry of death according to the word of God. I'm sorry if this offends, but I didn't say it:

2 Corinthians 3:6-14 (KJV)
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

Paul's own words, the glorious Law was done away. It was a shadow of what He gave and freed us.

If a Scripture does not seem to agree with other Scriptures, you are not supposed to assume the Scriptures are wrong, as you seem to be doing; you are supposed to understand that YOU are wrong -- that you have misunderstood the Scriptures.

 

[Abdicate]

So G-d is wrong and you are right?

If a Scripture does not seem to agree with other Scriptures, you are not supposed to assume the Scriptures are wrong, as you seem to be doing; you are supposed to understand that YOU are wrong -- that you have misunderstood the Scriptures.

I won't play that game. I am surprise with your response. Have a nice day.

 

[TezriLi]

No game intended. Thank you.

 

[Abdicate]

No game intended. Thank you.

Then? What was that all about me saying the scriptures are wrong? That's not nice. I never said such a thing, ever.

 

[aha]

Paul continued to obey the law as an example to his contemporaries and for us (somewhere around Acts 20 or 22, I think).

If I haven't read this post on a separate thread I will be surprised as well...
Yes, I understand the point being made...
http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/what-does-torah-observant-really-mean.39819/

I am Messianic, but I've never claimed to be a Messianic Jew; simply Messianic. I am not "under the Law," as only those who are unbelievers are "under the Law"; however, I am Torah observant. By saying I am Torah observant, I intend that I obey Torah as much as I possibly can, according to how I and my synagogue understand Torah. This means that I eat the only food as described as food and commanded in the Bible. I observe Sabbath and worship with my community on Sabbath. I have had my bat mitzvah. I do a miqvah as often as I can, but that is limited because of the area where I live.
I believe that I should observe the written Torah but observe the oral Torah in a limited way, as did Messiah. I believe that the Bible -- the WHOLE Bible -- has complete authority, but the oral torah is not authoritative. Torah, the first five books of the Bible, was completely about Messiah and His coming, and so is the rest of the Bible. I believe He is the coming King, the Prince of Peace, the Risen L-rd, the High Priest Who is ever interceding.
While I observe Torah, doing all I can in the absence of the Temple (and while not living in The Land), I am not saved by my works; I am saved only by the work of my Messiah. Nothing I do or don't do can improve my place in the world or improve it over those who do not specifically observe Torah. From what I understand, many Christians observe more Torah than they realize.

 

[KingJ]

I hear it said occasionally that many old testament laws, supposed no-nos, were no longer to be regarded as sinful - things like mixing textiles and eating shellfish - because Jesus cleared them. So which ones did he clear, and which are still sins, and where did he list them?

The bottom line is that God does not lie and will not waste His time getting His word penned for us unless it is important and true. Everything written must be considered and dealt with. All of the 613 laws pleased Him and especially the ten He personally gave Moses.

What happened on the cross was Coll 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross (NIV). So, no more ''stoned to death / hands chopped off / excommunicated / burnt at the stake''. All stoning stopped / never took place among the Jews and gentiles accepting Jesus, Paul and the disciples teachings.

When Jesus taught that all laws are summarized into two, it seems He made things simpler. I believe He made it more complex. Love the Lord above all = obey / do all those things that please Him = Obey all the laws plus whatever new thing He tells you / you learn. 613 laws become an unlimited amount of laws. Love others as yourself = obey all the OT laws plus millions more like....give 20% to those in full time ministry not just 10%.

We have to understand that Christianity is on par with a promotion from servant to family member. We are a new creation. We need to mindful of all that pleases and displeases God our Father. We can now judge the affect / pain an action causes God / judge God's reasoning behind the laws.

So, now we can discern that some laws are not always black and white. Any kind of stealing OT = hands chopped off. Whereas now we can discern before the Lord on our knees in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) that stealing from a shop to survive < stealing from a widow or orphan. If we pass a session of truthful self judgment, we should be fine before God 1 Cor 11:31.

 

[KingJ]

When Did Christ "forgive" Certain Old Testament Laws??

Whenever repentance was truthful, no matter the law broken Matt 18:22.

 

[Ravindran]

I hear it said occasionally that many old testament laws, supposed no-nos, were no longer to be regarded as sinful - things like mixing textiles and eating shellfish - because Jesus cleared them. So which ones did he clear, and which are still sins, and where did he list them?

Traditionally, laws are grouped into below.

Civil laws - very specific to Israel
Ceremonial laws - not applicable today as Jesus was the perfect final sacrifice
Moral law - will never change.