When did He know
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Boanerges(Inactive)
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Jesus amazed the people in the temple with His wisdom as a child and He spoke of the Temple as His Fathers house so I am thinking He pretty much new everything ( being God ) but still walked as a man until the Holy Spirit fell on Him.
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Boanerges(Inactive)
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I believe that to be the case.
J. Damascene
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"Don't you know I must be in my Father's house?" (I can't find that verse... right after he's found in the Temple) Jesus definitely knew something Mary and Joseph didn't.
Luke 2: 49-51 "And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart."
Mary and Joseph knew from before his birth who Jesus was. Mary was visited by an angel (Luke 1), and Joseph was visited by an angel (Matthew 1). Plus many other things which occurred: shepherds, wise men, Simeon, etc. I think that at the time that Jesus said this about being about his father's business, I think that possibly Mary and Joseph hadn't told him yet. This would indicate that Jesus knew on his own prior to Mary or Joseph revealing anything to him.
I guess I am still wondering when He found out. We say life begins at conception. Did He know when He was conceived? When He was in the womb? Was it at birth?
I think at some point He had an inkling that there was something special but I don't know that He fully comprehended it.
Here is a quote from a discussion I was having with a pastor.
You bring up some good points. I think the key word you used here is “inkling.” Did Jesus have an inkling- even at age 12- that He was someone unique, and maybe even had a nature unlike anyone else? Sure, He would have had to have an inkling. But my point is that He was not fully aware at that point who He really was, and what that meant.
Let me give you another argument. If you look at the rest of the story there in Luke 2, it says that He went back to Nazareth with Mary and Joseph, and was obedient to them. If Jesus knew, at this point, that He was God, then why even bother going back with Mary and Joseph, and why the need to obey them. Now you might say, “Because a 12 year old is not old enough to be on his own. He needs his parents to both shelter him and teach him about life.” Very true, but if Jesus already knows He is God, then what on earth would He needs anyone’s help for, and why would one who knew He was God willingly submit to obeying mere humans. He wouldn’t need them at all.
It also says that, after they returned from Jerusalem , He grew in wisdom. But if He knows He is God, then wouldn’t He already have all wisdom? Why would He need to grow and develop anymore. He is God. God doesn’t need to improve or to learn more. But again, Jesus was God willingly limiting Himself. Part of that limitation meant that when He was 12 He would only have the mental capability and comprehension of a 12 year old- albeit, a 12 year old prodigy.
I think at some point He had an inkling that there was something special but I don't know that He fully comprehended it.
Here is a quote from a discussion I was having with a pastor.
You bring up some good points. I think the key word you used here is “inkling.” Did Jesus have an inkling- even at age 12- that He was someone unique, and maybe even had a nature unlike anyone else? Sure, He would have had to have an inkling. But my point is that He was not fully aware at that point who He really was, and what that meant.
Let me give you another argument. If you look at the rest of the story there in Luke 2, it says that He went back to Nazareth with Mary and Joseph, and was obedient to them. If Jesus knew, at this point, that He was God, then why even bother going back with Mary and Joseph, and why the need to obey them. Now you might say, “Because a 12 year old is not old enough to be on his own. He needs his parents to both shelter him and teach him about life.” Very true, but if Jesus already knows He is God, then what on earth would He needs anyone’s help for, and why would one who knew He was God willingly submit to obeying mere humans. He wouldn’t need them at all.
It also says that, after they returned from Jerusalem , He grew in wisdom. But if He knows He is God, then wouldn’t He already have all wisdom? Why would He need to grow and develop anymore. He is God. God doesn’t need to improve or to learn more. But again, Jesus was God willingly limiting Himself. Part of that limitation meant that when He was 12 He would only have the mental capability and comprehension of a 12 year old- albeit, a 12 year old prodigy.
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Boanerges(Inactive)
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His life was before creation let alone conception.
I think in the final paragraph you answer yourself ..... about the limitations. Although Jesus was God, he was also still human. Even if at 12 he knew he was God, he was still limited by his age and development (mental, spiritual, etc.). So, there is not much need to discuss the final paragraph.
I will discuss the next to final paragraph. If Jesus knew he was God, then why would he go back with his parents and submit to them? Simple. Because it was the law. Jesus was a Jew. He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. We all know the scripture to obey your parents in the Lord that your days may be long upon the land (Exodus 20). At age 12, Jesus was still a child and still under his parents authority. When he stayed behind in the temple and his parents didn't know, he wasn't disobeying them, but he saw that it sorrowed them and caused them to worry. Not to break the law and also not to hurt his parents, he returned with them and was obedient.
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Boanerges(Inactive)
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It is easily summed up in this: He was God and God is always aware. He came to walk as a man for our example and to fulfill the law. He demonstrates what a man could do when totally submitted to God and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Even as a young adult He did no miracle until the Holy Spirit descemded on Him.
How could he be limited? I mean he was the Son. And he really shouldn't have to grow in wisdom. He already posessed it.
Why did he wait until the age of 30 to begin his minstry? Why didn't he start it at 12 or 18 or whatever?
In all honesty. I think I agree with you all. I think Jesus had to know he was the Son. Mainly from the story in Luke.
He was limited only by age and development. He came to earth fully human, even though he was God incarnate. He was born an infant and was just like all infants. He didn't just sit on in his cradle and start preaching and healing, nor was he able to at that time. In the wilderness he was tempted. In the garden he wept. And Jesus died... but rose again.
To say that Jesus could not be limited because he is God , and that he shouldn't have to grow in wisdom is false logic. We don't point to the cross and say "God cannot be killed, so therefore Jesus couldn't die, or shouldn't die." It is faulty logic. It ignores the fact that Jesus was still fully human and had all the limitations, emotions, etc. that goes along with being human. He ate. He drank. He used the facilities. He got tired. He slept. He bled.
In human form I would probably say that he knew around the age of twelve..when I think he began his ministry. We do not hear much about him before that. I know there are books out there regarding his earlier years, but they never made it into the 66 Books of the Bible. Then again this is another topic so forget what I just said.
Original Question...Ans...Age 12
Original Question...Ans...Age 12
Jesus is God and has always been God. There are very few references as to what Jesus did as a child, so to state what he did or didnt do is pure assumption and speculation.
There are many false gospels with legendary claims of what Jesus did as a child, but like with any other famous people they can become legends and Myths with half contrived truths.
This is why we must put our faith in the bible as we know it to be the absolute truth.
We must also be careful of the new age teachings that Jesus became like God through His good works and His good moral behaviour. Jesus never became God, He is God and was born in human form by His Holy Spirit through Mary.
There are many false gospels with legendary claims of what Jesus did as a child, but like with any other famous people they can become legends and Myths with half contrived truths.
This is why we must put our faith in the bible as we know it to be the absolute truth.
We must also be careful of the new age teachings that Jesus became like God through His good works and His good moral behaviour. Jesus never became God, He is God and was born in human form by His Holy Spirit through Mary.
I think you have misunderstood me. I would NEVER claim that Jesus and God aren't 1 in the same. That would be throwing out the whole Trinity.
But when Jesus came to earth He was limited. He was no longer omnipresent. So is it not possible that one of the limitations that He had to endure being that He was in "human form" was not fully being able to comprehend that He was the Son, until the Father told him when He came up out of the water at His baptism. Even then He still had limitations.
I have to believe He always knew. It would be too hard for Him to do everything with confidence and never doubt Hmself without knowing something more than we usually know. I could be wrong, and it may or may not be important. Personally, in the end, I wonder how He managed it. It is beyond my mind to understand how He was so sure of Himself and His mission without ever doubting or getting sidetracked.
I don't know that He ever really had doubt, but He labored through this. Remember before He was put on the cross He asked if there was any other way. But He said let Your will be done. Then on the cross He yelled out why have You forsaken me.
I believe another limitation of taking human form.
When reading through this thread, I thought of how John the Baptist leapt for joy when Mary visited Elizabeth, while he was still in Elizabeth's womb.
I bring this up, because I believe that while Jesus did voluntarily humble and limit Himself while He became incarnate; He nonetheless always had the relationship with the Father and Holy Spirit. We see with John that the relationship with the Spirit can cause a conscious reaction of even a babe in the womb, so I believe that yes, Jesus always knew who He was and what He was to do.
As for Him continuing to grow, become strong and increase in wisdom, I believe that this is part of what His ministry was here on earth. He came to die on the cross, to be sure, but before that He also was to live a perfectly sinless life as a human. His birth, growth and ministry, including 'increasing in wisdom' was part of His development as the perfect Human. If Jesus came to earth, willingly humbling Himself as a human; but then did NOT live a perfect live, but rather became unwise and sinful, then His death on the cross would have been for nothing.
I bring this up, because I believe that while Jesus did voluntarily humble and limit Himself while He became incarnate; He nonetheless always had the relationship with the Father and Holy Spirit. We see with John that the relationship with the Spirit can cause a conscious reaction of even a babe in the womb, so I believe that yes, Jesus always knew who He was and what He was to do.
As for Him continuing to grow, become strong and increase in wisdom, I believe that this is part of what His ministry was here on earth. He came to die on the cross, to be sure, but before that He also was to live a perfectly sinless life as a human. His birth, growth and ministry, including 'increasing in wisdom' was part of His development as the perfect Human. If Jesus came to earth, willingly humbling Himself as a human; but then did NOT live a perfect live, but rather became unwise and sinful, then His death on the cross would have been for nothing.
Humble_Servant
Inactive
excellent.
I agree with Kevin that most of this discussion can only be speculative.
This is an interesting convorsation to have, and probably won't be very fruitful if we all have different assumptions about what Jesus' life was like. Was He FULLY man and fully God at the same time or not? If He was fully human, then He must not have known He was Christ. Infants don't even know the difference between themselves from their mothers or an object... much less comprehend the existance of God, let alone that He is that said God. They simply cannot differentiate. Jesus being fully human and knowing He was the Christ from birth is not a possibility.
Yet whether He was fully human or not is questionable, but it is for sure that He was at least part human. If you asking when did He know who He was is really asking how did the infinite and finite co-exist within one being. I can't answer that, and as far as I know... no one can.
My guess is that Jesus' spirit was fully-cognisant, while His flesh/mind was normally functioning as human. His spirit dwelled with the body, still in fellowship with The Father, while waiting for and influencing his body to develop physically and mentally. Just a guess.
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Boanerges(Inactive)
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We see much of Jesus in scripture:
We saw Him as a babe in the womb and He made John leap for joy in his own mothers woumb. We saw Him as an infant, all who sought God were drawn to Him. We saw Him as a young man and the very rulers of the temple were amazed at His wisdom. We saw Him as a young man walking in obediance. We saw Him baptized in the Holy Ghost and began His ministry and His road to the cross.
Go back and see Him as creator, see Him as the tree of Life ,see Him as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world- God had a plan before we fell. He called the Word (Jesus) to pay our price and though we did not see it manifest until later He knew what His mission here was.
These are of course just my opinions.
We saw Him as a babe in the womb and He made John leap for joy in his own mothers woumb. We saw Him as an infant, all who sought God were drawn to Him. We saw Him as a young man and the very rulers of the temple were amazed at His wisdom. We saw Him as a young man walking in obediance. We saw Him baptized in the Holy Ghost and began His ministry and His road to the cross.
Go back and see Him as creator, see Him as the tree of Life ,see Him as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world- God had a plan before we fell. He called the Word (Jesus) to pay our price and though we did not see it manifest until later He knew what His mission here was.
These are of course just my opinions.