When I sin because you sin.

P

PaulisSaved

Account Closed
I wanted to start a discussion on this.
People do bad things, we all sin. There is no escaping that fact.
However, what could be said excuse making I know occurs allot and has in my life.
In fact addiction triggers themselves are often focused on what other did to you resulted in your sin.

1 Corinthians 15:33 – The Influence of Bad Company "Do not be misled: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'"
Is not always avoidable with Jobs we must keep to survive, can however effects ones sins or justification of sin( which there are none)

But then in:
Matthew 18:6-7 – Warnings About Leading Others into Sin "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
Here, Jesus teaches that leading others into sin is a serious offense. This shows that while we are each accountable for our own sins, there are also consequences for causing others to stumble or fall into sin.

These two passages are ones I want to consider in discussing, but please add your own thoughts as well.
We must likely sin all the time because of others, but then it is our sin not their. Thoughts?

Paul
 
Well first thing that springs to my mind is intent.
If I know I’m leading someone to sin then shame on me and I tend to think I deserve what’s coming, to an extent of course. I am prone to say sorry and do what I can if I know.

If I don’t know I’m leading someone to sin and they sin anyway I am still likely to still feel somewhat responsible but if they blame me then I’m also prone to get angry and defensive too. It’s just the way I’m wired I guess. Relationships matter to me and I like to keep them peaceful. I will still apologise and do my best to make peace but if people keep hold of resentments toward me I tend to back off and let them be.
 
Another angle:
As a Christian we know we have an advocate. A Christian desires to do that which pleases his Lord however due to human weakness we regularly fail even in our misguided thinking/intentions. So really the only sin is unbelieve for the unbeliever had no advocate.
To cause to stumble: I don't believe this is a reference to a personal failing in our walk due to our weakness, in daily activities. I see it as a hindrance in our desire to walk with Christ, which can only really come from a brother/sister trying to also walk the way. For example, a brother may unchristianize you by smearing your efforts and desire causing you to flounder in your Christian faith or hope. Causing you to stumble in your perceived relationship to Christ. For Christ can only work in and through us as we believe. Therefore that action is against Christ and indeed a person would be better off 'drownd in the sea'.
 
PaulisSaved said:
I wanted to start a discussion on this.
People do bad things, we all sin. There is no escaping that fact.
However, what could be said excuse making I know occurs allot and has in my life.
In fact addiction triggers themselves are often focused on what other did to you resulted in your sin.

1 Corinthians 15:33 – The Influence of Bad Company "Do not be misled: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'"
Is not always avoidable with Jobs we must keep to survive, can however effects ones sins or justification of sin( which there are none)

But then in:
Matthew 18:6-7 – Warnings About Leading Others into Sin "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
Here, Jesus teaches that leading others into sin is a serious offense. This shows that while we are each accountable for our own sins, there are also consequences for causing others to stumble or fall into sin.

These two passages are ones I want to consider in discussing, but please add your own thoughts as well.
We must likely sin all the time because of others, but then it is our sin not their. Thoughts?

Paul
Click to expand...
Hi Paul,

Good topic. As we go in in our walk with the Lord, it may not be the obvious sins that we do however, our conversation is one of the hardest. This is because so much self has to `die` to the Lord and let His life come through. The tongue, as James says needs to be `bridled,` (James 1: 26).

The Lord is patient and faithful to us as He is making us like unto Himself. Let us then work with Him and be mindful of our conversation with others, and especially about others.
 
Marilyn C said:
Hi Paul,

Good topic. As we go in in our walk with the Lord, it may not be the obvious sins that we do however, our conversation is one of the hardest. This is because so much self has to `die` to the Lord and let His life come through. The tongue, as James says needs to be `bridled,` (James 1: 26).

The Lord is patient and faithful to us as He is making us like unto Himself. Let us then work with Him and be mindful of our conversation with others, and especially about others.
Click to expand...
Hi Marilyn I feel like this really spoke to me today.

My faith fluctuates Bc of what I tell myself.

God is in the process of dissolving my
“I just can’t do it” mentality and it’s a stubborn belief and digging it’s heals in.
So I find telling myself “ I may be able to do it” feels a little less strong

Maybe that the stronghold the bible talks about?

Thanks.
 
I joined here a month ago.
Its been really and interesting ride as I usually do not stay in these groups this long.
Its a testimony of the people in this group as members and staff alike.
It did not help me from not being a sinner ( as I laugh quietly hoping God gets the joke)
But I am still broken and unworthy. I am still saved by his love and Grace.

I mentioned in the beginning joining here I was very tired. I am not so as much.
The fellowship here is so deep and honest that it actually more fulfilling then church in someway.
Because 99.9% of the people here are not in click, or fronting who they really are not.

This week allot is hanging over my head about the future and what it holds. I know what want to happen.
But I have to pray and follow that path. Sometimes in my life it a part I hate.
I read allot, I study allot. I like to always think there is not any task I can not physical or mentally accomplish
as I usually do. This is great when I need to repair the house , the cars, computers and do finances, or build anything.
Its bad when I think I can get the goals done with out Gods impact. Giving in is the hardest part of being human.
As we are supposed to do things, and become better.

But I wonder about the greatest things Humans have done unguided. And how that impacted us all.
Nuclear weapons may lead to many cures, at the death of thousands.
We build our cars only to pollute the air. We make amazing products only to poising the oceans.
The internet allows people to communicate around the word, share their lives and God.
Yet the internet allows trafficking, and unspeakable sins to take place.

Its why listening to God is crucial in what we do and live. And yes I am really really bad at excuse making, justification.
As a Ordained Pastor that shocks people when I say I sin, I can not avoid it. Because I am weak and broken. Just like everyone else.
But God does make us stronger. God did not set the bar high, we are the ones that set the bar low. And then are surprised when we
do not do as we should. Man could live alone in a cave and would sin. The sin is because of what man did and does. Not what God did to us.
In fact all of us would surely perish as there is none of us that is Christ. But I hope God sees our hearts and knows we truly want to be.

There is so much evil in this world right now its overwhelming to think only Christ Followers are the ones suffering now. So we do not later.
Feels unfair if we are honest about it. But this sacrifice of working to avoid our sins and repent Is what will allow us to not suffer later.
Its allot like the reason we all work at jobs, so we do not suffer hunger.

IN AWE OF HIM
How did the meal go this weekend hope you were feeling well enough?
 
PaulisSaved said:
I joined here a month ago. Its been really and interesting ride as I usually do not stay in these groups this long. Its a testimony of the people in this group as members and staff alike. It did not help me from not being a sinner ( as I laugh quietly hoping God gets the joke) But I am still broken and unworthy. I am still saved by his love and Grace. I mentioned in the beginning joining here I was very tired. I am not so as much. The fellowship here is so deep and honest that it actually more fulfilling then church in someway. Because 99.9% of the people here are not in click, or fronting who they really are not. This week allot is hanging over my head about the future and what it holds. I know what want to happen. But I have to pray and follow that path. Sometimes in my life it a part I hate. I read allot, I study allot. I like to always think there is not any task I can not physical or mentally accomplish as I usually do. This is great when I need to repair the house , the cars, computers and do finances, or build anything. Its bad when I think I can get the goals done with out Gods impact. Giving in is the hardest part of being human. As we are supposed to do things, and become better. But I wonder about the greatest things Humans have done unguided. And how that impacted us all. Nuclear weapons may lead to many cures, at the death of thousands. We build our cars only to pollute the air. We make amazing products only to poising the oceans. The internet allows people to communicate around the word, share their lives and God. Yet the internet allows trafficking, and unspeakable sins to take place. Its why listening to God is crucial in what we do and live. And yes I am really really bad at excuse making, justification. As a Ordained Pastor that shocks people when I say I sin, I can not avoid it. Because I am weak and broken. Just like everyone else. But God does make us stronger. God did not set the bar high, we are the ones that set the bar low. And then are surprised when we do not do as we should. Man could live alone in a cave and would sin. The sin is because of what man did and does. Not what God did to us. In fact all of us would surely perish as there is none of us that is Christ. But I hope God sees our hearts and knows we truly want to be. There is so much evil in this world right now its overwhelming to think only Christ Followers are the ones suffering now. So we do not later. Feels unfair if we are honest about it. But this sacrifice of working to avoid our sins and repent Is what will allow us to not suffer later. Its allot like the reason we all work at jobs, so we do not suffer hunger. IN AWE OF HIM How did the meal go this weekend hope you were feeling well enough?
Click to expand...

Good morning, Paul;

You mentioned the up and down flow of membership at CFS in another thread and I'd like to post my reply here while staying on topic.

About 25 years ago when many new Christian websites launched, CFS went live in 2006. It had to endure the growing pains of many members who shouted Lord Lord but carried the inner cup of a loveless wolf. But for the last 18 years we were prompted with perseverance while God pruned His site during the worst and seemingly best of times.

Christians exercise the freedom to come and go for various reasons, unfortunately, others move on, close their account or get banned for being defiant of the forum rules. This happens in the Church community.

2024 has been a banner year for Christian Forum Site. Not speaking for myself, CFS is blessed with God's anointing of seasoned Christians and leaders. The staff has gone above and beyond in monitoring, vetting, moderating, tasks behind the scenes and being open to change within it's means. Most of all, I believe God searches the hearts of our members and staff giving us a spirit of a humbleness and humility. This is not a humble brag.

This does not mean that we can let our guard down during this good season as we approach the Holiday Season. Things happen with people, within people. It's how we receive all circumstances and how to prepare and be ready according to God's guidance and Word.

When I sin because you sin can be expanded in so many areas. I have sinned because I made choices over obedience. I have caused others to sin which in my conviction is a worse sin. I have sinned when others enticed me to join them in disobedience. When we continue with the same sin is because we just don't want to give it up.

The discipline is when we process our sin and seek God's help in minimizing these sins in our lives. For example, God forgave me of sins in my life 40 years ago. By the grace of God He helped me minimize them but I am still a confessed sinner.

When members bemoan and lament over their sins leading them to unworthiness with God is because sin rottens the bones reference Psalms 32:3, a Psalm of David.

The blessing is when we give others our listening ears, not a scolding teaching moment, but allow the other to express themselves no matter the articulation in writing or speaking. Reading and listening to our brothers and sister's confession, prayer requests, life's most devastating moments is how Jesus gave His attention to the suffering and prosperous. Yes, some who are prosperous need prayer because they don't know how to handle their success.

We can't just respond with, "well, just pray to the Lord and He will forgive or cover you," and then put it on a shelf. Part of our blessing in ongoing listening, breaking bread with them and serving. This was Jesus' mission and passed the teaching to His apostles.

When it comes to our day to day material attention, maintenance and tending to responsibilities is one thing that God takes care of, but we need to separate that from our relationship with Christ as He searches our hearts and attitudes toward everyone and everything.

God bless you, Paul, and everyone posting in this topic.
 
bobinfaith said:
Good morning, Paul;

You mentioned the up and down flow of membership at CFS in another thread and I'd like to post my reply here while staying on topic.

About 25 years ago when many new Christian websites launched, CFS went live in 2006. It had to endure the growing pains of many members who shouted Lord Lord but carried the inner cup of a loveless wolf. But for the last 18 years we were prompted with perseverance while God pruned His site during the worst and seemingly best of times.

Christians exercise the freedom to come and go for various reasons, unfortunately, others move on, close their account or get banned for being defiant of the forum rules. This happens in the Church community.

2024 has been a banner year for Christian Forum Site. Not speaking for myself, CFS is blessed with God's anointing of seasoned Christians and leaders. The staff has gone above and beyond in monitoring, vetting, moderating, tasks behind the scenes and being open to change within it's means. Most of all, I believe God searches the hearts of our members and staff giving us a spirit of a humbleness and humility. This is not a humble brag.

This does not mean that we can let our guard down during this good season as we approach the Holiday Season. Things happen with people, within people. It's how we receive all circumstances and how to prepare and be ready according to God's guidance and Word.

When I sin because you sin can be expanded in so many areas. I have sinned because I made choices over obedience. I have caused others to sin which in my conviction is a worse sin. I have sinned when others enticed me to join them in disobedience. When we continue with the same sin is because we just don't want to give it up.

The discipline is when we process our sin and seek God's help in minimizing these sins in our lives. For example, God forgave me of sins in my life 40 years ago. By the grace of God He helped me minimize them but I am still a confessed sinner.

When members bemoan and lament over their sins leading them to unworthiness with God is because sin rottens the bones reference Psalms 32:3, a Psalm of David.

The blessing is when we give others our listening ears, not a scolding teaching moment, but allow the other to express themselves no matter the articulation in writing or speaking. Reading and listening to our brothers and sister's confession, prayer requests, life's most devastating moments is how Jesus gave His attention to the suffering and prosperous. Yes, some who are prosperous need prayer because they don't know how to handle their success.

We can't just respond with, "well, just pray to the Lord and He will forgive or cover you," and then put it on a shelf. Part of our blessing in ongoing listening, breaking bread with them and serving. This was Jesus' mission and passed the teaching to His apostles.

When it comes to our day to day material attention, maintenance and tending to responsibilities is one thing that God takes care of, but we need to separate that from our relationship with Christ as He searches our hearts and attitudes toward everyone and everything.

God bless you, Paul, and everyone posting in this topic.
Click to expand...


Thank You brother Bob for that very well thought out reply :)
I did not though want to imply the forum was not a worthy place for Christians or that work was not done.
I have gone deep into the past of this forum looking carefully at what was done at certain times and seeing how the
forum ( I say forum I mean everyone that helps, staff founder etc) But " forum " cover everyone responsible.
My relationship with Christ is shared here, so I did some pretty heavy looking and reading. Its on that I base that the
group here feels Genuine.

My issues and its truly mine, to be blunt I do not trust other Christians, I am not jaded as the reason. But they are me.
I don't trust me with my own soul, LOL. Let alone trust other humans. God, I love God more then anything. So
sure I trust him, and hope he can move me.
My life I stood beside warriors in Christ. Only to see them drop their sword and run the other way.
Not, once or twice but in the hundreds of times, many were famaily and friend.
I have lost many brothers, and sisters in Christ over the years.
Being a voice in the community, as pastors are, comes at a price. I pray for them, I will stand and help them.
But when they claim to stand with me, doing the same I am suspicious as satan tells lies, and half truths.
I am just being honest. I would refrain from publically stating this for obvious reasons to people I knew and knew me.
I wish I was not that way. But I am.

But I guess I am grateful that God has tried to make me a kind person. I think that is one thing I can hold on to pretty well
is I can care deeply for others. At my own peril but has not jaded me and that is because Christ walks besides me and does not drop his sword.
 
PaulisSaved said:
Thank You brother Bob for that very well thought out reply :) I did not though want to imply the forum was not a worthy place for Christians or that work was not done. I have gone deep into the past of this forum looking carefully at what was done at certain times and seeing how the forum ( I say forum I mean everyone that helps, staff founder etc) But " forum " cover everyone responsible. My relationship with Christ is shared here, so I did some pretty heavy looking and reading. Its on that I base that the group here feels Genuine. My issues and its truly mine, to be blunt I do not trust other Christians, I am not jaded as the reason. But they are me. I don't trust me with my own soul, LOL. Let alone trust other humans. God, I love God more then anything. So sure I trust him, and hope he can move me. My life I stood beside warriors in Christ. Only to see them drop their sword and run the other way. Not, once or twice but in the hundreds of times, many were famaily and friend. I have lost many brothers, and sisters in Christ over the years. Being a voice in the community, as pastors are, comes at a price. I pray for them, I will stand and help them. But when they claim to stand with me, doing the same I am suspicious as satan tells lies, and half truths. I am just being honest. I would refrain from publically stating this for obvious reasons to people I knew and knew me. I wish I was not that way. But I am. But I guess I am grateful that God has tried to make me a kind person. I think that is one thing I can hold on to pretty well is I can care deeply for others. At my own peril but has not jaded me and that is because Christ walks besides me and does not drop his sword.
Click to expand...

Hello Paul;

No worries on the forum. I read in another thread that you were observant on "the up and down membership" that caught my attention and that is what I was replying to.

My main post here is the bigger picture in reference to the main topic When I sin because you sin.

God bless you, Paul, and thank you.

Bob
 
Via dolarossa said:
Hi Marilyn I feel like this really spoke to me today.

My faith fluctuates Bc of what I tell myself.

God is in the process of dissolving my
“I just can’t do it” mentality and it’s a stubborn belief and digging it’s heals in.
So I find telling myself “ I may be able to do it” feels a little less strong

Maybe that the stronghold the bible talks about?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Hi Via,

I agree, as I also see the Lord addressing all our inward thoughts, whether about ourselves or others. Good to hear you are changing the `record,` of putting one down and now saying you can try. The enemy tries to get me to look back, but I now don`t go down that rabbit trail, I look away to the Lord and think upon Him.

And our thoughts are strongholds until we by our will give them over to the Lord.

`For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds. Casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 4 & 5)
 
PaulisSaved said:
I joined here a month ago.
Its been really and interesting ride as I usually do not stay in these groups this long.
Its a testimony of the people in this group as members and staff alike.
It did not help me from not being a sinner ( as I laugh quietly hoping God gets the joke)
But I am still broken and unworthy. I am still saved by his love and Grace.

I mentioned in the beginning joining here I was very tired. I am not so as much.
The fellowship here is so deep and honest that it actually more fulfilling then church in someway.
Because 99.9% of the people here are not in click, or fronting who they really are not.

This week allot is hanging over my head about the future and what it holds. I know what want to happen.
But I have to pray and follow that path. Sometimes in my life it a part I hate.
I read allot, I study allot. I like to always think there is not any task I can not physical or mentally accomplish
as I usually do. This is great when I need to repair the house , the cars, computers and do finances, or build anything.
Its bad when I think I can get the goals done with out Gods impact. Giving in is the hardest part of being human.
As we are supposed to do things, and become better.

But I wonder about the greatest things Humans have done unguided. And how that impacted us all.
Nuclear weapons may lead to many cures, at the death of thousands.
We build our cars only to pollute the air. We make amazing products only to poising the oceans.
The internet allows people to communicate around the word, share their lives and God.
Yet the internet allows trafficking, and unspeakable sins to take place.

Its why listening to God is crucial in what we do and live. And yes I am really really bad at excuse making, justification.
As a Ordained Pastor that shocks people when I say I sin, I can not avoid it. Because I am weak and broken. Just like everyone else.
But God does make us stronger. God did not set the bar high, we are the ones that set the bar low. And then are surprised when we
do not do as we should. Man could live alone in a cave and would sin. The sin is because of what man did and does. Not what God did to us.
In fact all of us would surely perish as there is none of us that is Christ. But I hope God sees our hearts and knows we truly want to be.

There is so much evil in this world right now its overwhelming to think only Christ Followers are the ones suffering now. So we do not later.
Feels unfair if we are honest about it. But this sacrifice of working to avoid our sins and repent Is what will allow us to not suffer later.
Its allot like the reason we all work at jobs, so we do not suffer hunger.

IN AWE OF HIM
How did the meal go this weekend hope you were feeling well enough?
Click to expand...
I imagine being an ordained pastor puts more of a burden on you for your faith?
you kinda have a lot more to live up to. thats a heavy responsibility, which I admire. I also admire humility, because I can also imagine how that could impact you when you are tempted.

my pastor at the church I visit only has about 15 people visit each Sunday( different people each week as they are all busy and serving elsewhere) but he is so on fire for the Lord. It also helps to ignites mine.

You're in good hands here, I did worry a lot when I needed to take a break from the forums.. a few times. but I am reminded Jesus retreated too to retain balance when overwhelmed at times. its good. your friends, if they are your friends would not be worried, knowing that you are well and truly His child and being cared for!

That Real Love. (Love does not fear)

hope you settle in here, I like you waffling on its soothing😎

ps, you'll get used to my humour,
ask In Awe of Him she also loves me like a big sister too ❤️❤️❤️

(only she is a little more crazier because she's a sheep,tee hee)
 
PaulisSaved said:
My issues and its truly mine, to be blunt I do not trust other Christians
Click to expand...
we all ben burnt a few times some Christians can be mean spirited / especially if things dont go there way. these things are uniformante and should not be. being in the ministry i have experienced many things not so nice ... big question is can other Christians trust you ? see all these things teaches how we are to treat others. .much like the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto you. i dont want to burn others like i been burnt
yes there are people i dont want to be around and no i dont trust them i am often reminded of this passage peter wrote the end of all things are at hand

Peter 4:7–11
The New King James Version​

Serving for God’s Glory
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.” 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. 10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, jas good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the 3oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that min all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the 4dominion forever and ever. Amen.

i am also reminded of the pauls thorn in the flesh... i have a few of them myself days i do good days i dont . the big kicker is his grace is sufficient... ( but that's not the answer we want ) i use know a man if anyone rubbed him the wrong way.. he turned bitter he had nothing good to say about them... even if they tried to apologize.. he had a root of bitterness and yes its easy to get amen i had to walk out of a lynch mob style church meeting they wanted my resignation over something i mentioned from the pulpit that was very much Bible.. meeting 1 a older man who thought he was big dog asked me where i got that from.. so i opened the book and read it to him..

a week or so later meeting #2 the lynch mob.. i took my key off pitched at the older man . i remanded some in the Mob of something they had complained to me about done toward them..

i started to walk out a guy i have known for years stood up and acted like he wanted to fight.. had he i would have pushed him down and walked over him...
men/ women will let you down Christ will not and i aw still going to the holyghost school of hard knocks . every time i think ill pass i fail
 
forgiven61 said:
if you only knew
Click to expand...
No thanks.
I doubt I would have been picked as a nun either. I went to Rome once and went to the Vatican. I met some lovely nuns. In fact you can stay at a nunnery for less than 100£ a week. You have to book in advance though.

But looking at the Catholic Churches I think it’s the fact that these priests cannot marry!
Why oh why? Even zen monks can marry.
 
Also, I know some churches( Catholic) have monks in monesteries and they practice hatred of the body as a form of mystical practice. Like how Buddha used to practice a strict form of meditation by hurting himself.

Crazy if you ask me
 
Via dolarossa said:
No thanks.
Click to expand...
it has its ups and downs just like our regular life... sunady morning my numbers was low total 4 between rain and sickness in the Church it was hard.. i preached and it was a good service sunday night he had a joint service with another Church we had congregational singing we had testimony service anointed specials.. the spirit was so thick you could cut it with a knife.. i had freedom and liberty .. so sunday night out weighed the the low numbers from sunday morning
 
But I guess I am grateful that God has tried to make me a kind person
Click to expand...
I've been re reading your posts and this stuck out..
so whatever is troubling you know this. I have done fair worse than you. so by your logic, I ought to be ahead of you in hell..
so if you want go to hell then go. but I am forgiven for all of my sins. past present and future.

Now, if I was to go back a few months back to January sometime.
I was actually screaming in agony of being abandoned without warning because some man decided it was a good idea to not tell me when he was coming back. This man was my.best friend and confidante. And what did he do? ghosted me.

He should be in hell for that one, by my logic because he made me sin. and I got over it, so can you.
 
forgiven61 said:
it has its ups and downs just like our regular life... sunady morning my numbers was low total 4 between rain and sickness in the Church it was hard.. i preached and it was a good service sunday night he had a joint service with another Church we had congregational singing we had testimony service anointed specials.. the spirit was so thick you could cut it with a knife.. i had freedom and liberty .. so sunday night out weighed the the low numbers from sunday morning
Click to expand...
we only had 10 people the week before. a lot of the (baptist) congregation work Sundays. but I tend to enjoy the quizzes. our pastor makes us do a quiz and we have to win against the other team. its fun.
 
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