Thank you for this link. It is very helpful in understanding the falls of Satan. There are no scriptures that tell us the time frame of his first fall, only that he was working against God in the garden. I had considered the three heavens and how it could be that he fell from Gods throne room into the second heaven and we would not be able to detect them because they are spirit and as such would still have access to us. My problem was keeping God in his throne room and not considering that he would meet them in the middle (so to speak).
When is Satan cast out of heaven?
- Thread starter Dave F.
- Start date
That is the PRETERIST position!
Maybe.......
Maybe.......
Maybe.......
Instead of MAYBE, why dont we read the actual, literal words in the Word of God for clarity?????
In Revelation Chapter 12, we read of the War in Heaven when Satan will be hurled to the earth.
12:7-9
"Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
It is often taught that the War in Heaven is a past event that describes the original Fall of Satan prior to the Fall of Man. However, we know that the War in Heaven is a future event based on how the next verses tell us that the War in Heaven will be followed by the Attack on Jerusalem and the Great Tribulation, which are both future events, which would make the War in Heaven a future event as well.
12:13-14
"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman (the Attack on Jerusalem) who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach."
The above verses are a description of the Attack on Jerusalem when the Remnant from Israel will escape from the city and will be pursued by the dragon (Satan). The reference to a time, times, and half a time correlates with how the Remnant will be kept safe in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years during the Great Tribulation, when Satan will wage a war against those who hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Moose........with all due respect, may I say to you that the "Fall of Satan" and the "War in Heaven" to cast out Satan are TWO different events separated by thousands of years. I thought I would take the time to try and post some Scriptures to help us all understand that these are TWO events and not ONE and the War in Heaven has not taken place yet.
The Scriptures, in Ezekiel 28:11-17 tell us that the original Fall of Satan, which is a past event that occurred when Satan was expelled from the mountain of God due to the wickedness that was found in him.
It is widely accepted that the above passages in Ezekiel 28 are the description of the fall of the King of Tyre, give an account of the original Fall of Satan. This is based on how the King of Tyre is described as a guardian cherub who was in the Garden of Eden and on the holy mountain. Obviously, the actual king of Tyre could never be described this way, which would make the description of the fall of the King of Tyre a type or representation of the original Fall of Satan who was driven from the mount of God.
Despite losing his place at the Throne of God, the Fall of Satan did not result in him being destroyed completely or losing the abilty to present himself to God. Instead, we read how he remained as an adversary to God in the heavenly places. This can be seen in later events when the angels presented themselves before the Lord.
Job 1:6-7
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the accuser) also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
The above events are found in the Book of Job, which takes place after the original Fall of Satan. This tells us that when Satan was expelled from the Throne of God, he was not removed from the heavens entirely, but found a place among the angels. This, in turn, corresponds with how we read of the different hierarchies of heaven, as described by the Apostle Paul, who spoke of being caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corth. 12:2
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows."
Major, where do you place the happenings of verse 4 of Rev chapter 12?
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Is this the first fall or just before Jesus' birth?
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Is this the first fall or just before Jesus' birth?
Thank you for asking me Moose.
I do hope you realize that I am no scholar. I will give you what I have been taught and what I believe.
"The 1/3 of the stars of heaven" indicates the vast extent of the rebellion in heaven when those angels rebelled and became demons.
Daniel makes reference to this admittedly difficult passage in Daniel 8:10..........
" And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."
Where in prehistory this took place, we don't know. Before the world existed, no doubt, this rebellion took place of these angels. Prior to his rebellion, but this was the ORIGINAL FALL.
"and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered" ..........................................................................is a reference to Israel.
"for to devour her child as soon as it was born."....is a reference to Jesus from who came as the Jewish Messiah!
From other Scriptures that I have posted for you, we know that Satan has had and still has some kind of access to heaven.
Now.........IMHO. Revelation 12 is a description of a future event during which Satan and his followers will be completely expelled from heaven.
It seems to me that the Scriptures indicate this will take place at approximately the midpoint of the tribulation period. Satan and his fallen angels will have only three and a half years to attack God's people. Verse 12 notes, "But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
We know that Satan's original fall took place before the serpent (Satan) tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but sometime after the creation of angelic beings.
I need to update the above post.
Revelation 12:6 says.........
"and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days."
To me, that is a reference to Matthew 24:16-20
"Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, (18) and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. (19) And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (20) Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath"
That is at the mid-point of the 7 year Tribulation Period and actually begins the GREAT Tribulation.
Satan Thrown Down to Earth
Then in Revelation 12:7 we see......." Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. "
When people see the abomination of desolation, then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.
The mention of the abomination of desolation is a reference to Daniel 9:27. There, the angel Gabriel explains to Daniel that, at the midpoint of a seven-year period, a person associated with abominations and who makes things desolate will do something awful in the temple.
This is something the Bible student needs to be very... careful in The Scriptures about when reading. The short answer is, the Revelation 12:7-17 verses are all... for the very 'end' of this world.
Thus that casting out has not... happened yet today. If you follow the events once the "dragon" is cast out, you should understand how those events relate to the coming "great tribulation" time, and persecution of the saints at the end, for even the 5th Seal events are pointed to in Rev.12:11.
The Rev.12:1-5 verses act as a type summary, from the time of Satan's original overthrow, to the time in God's Garden and the Seed of the Woman, all the way to Christ's future reign with the "rod of iron".
The Rev.12:6 represents a period of safety for God's Israel and as a symbol for a time prior to the "great tribulation".
The remaining Rev.12:7-17 verses point to the very 'end' with the start of the "great tribulation" by Satan and his angels being booted out of Heaven down to earth, in OUR earthly dimension.
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
Jesus said the above just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. Many think that Satan was 'bound' by Jesus on the cross at that time, but that is not what Lord Jesus was pointing to. A little later, in John 14, Lord Jesus said the following...
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV
Who is that "prince of this world"? The devil himself. And with that "Hereafter I will not talk much with you:", Lord Jesus is showing that prince is coming after... His crucifixion. How did He mean that "cometh" though? To know about that, one must understand God's Word about the two dimensions of existence, this earthly one, and the heavenly one.
The Two Dimensions of Existence:
Jesus defined only 2 separate dimensions in John 3 when He said, "That which is born of the flesh and flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit." Our flesh is of this 'earthly' dimension we live in. But our 'spirit' is of that other dimension. We each are made up of spirit, soul, and flesh. Our spirit and soul are attached together and are not separated. But our soul-spirit can be separated from our flesh body. Apostle Paul showed this in 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 15, and 2 Corinthians 12. Lord Jesus showed this in Matthew 10:28. And even Solomon revealed it in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, even pointing to a "silver cord" that must be severed at death of our flesh.
Now carefully look at the Revelation 12:7-8 verses...
Rev 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV
Do you see that, "neither was their place found any more in heaven"?
Satan and his angels don't have flesh bodies, so what dimension have they always... existed in? They have only operated in the heavenly dimension of course. Most are taught about Satan and his angels like even when on earth influencing the flesh, that they leave that heavenly dimension, or some idea like that. No, that heavenly dimension is the one that is their home, even the abode of the wicked called 'hell' (haides) is in that heavenly dimension. Even from that heavenly dimension Satan and his angels can still appear before God's Throne, and influence flesh man on earth.
But... the idea in verse 8, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" is something different, for it is pointing to Satan and his angels being kicked out... of that heavenly dimension!
That then begs the question... can the angelic spirit body manifest on earth in OUR 'earthly' dimension? We must ask that, simply because what other dimension of existence is there other than that 'heavenly' one? Angels don't have flesh bodies, as there is no Scripture support anywhere that shows they had to put on a flesh body in order to appear as 'men' here on earth to God's elect.
Yet we see in examples like Genesis 19 where the two angels sent to Lot, that Lot prepared food for them and they ate, and the sodomites outside saw the two angels as "men" and wanted to have sex with them. That Scripture, and Genesis 18 before that where "three men" appeared to Abraham and one of them was Lord Jesus, and like Hebrews 13:2, reveals the angelic body can live and walk upon this earth and appears with the 'image of man'.
And Lord Jesus warned us when He said that the "prince of this world cometh".
He did not mean that figuratively. He meant that literally.
Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Did that "power of His Christ" happen back at Satan's original rebellion of old? You should easily know that can ONLY point to a time AFTER the cross. And since that above event is linked to the previous 7-8 verses, this points directly to the very end of this world, to the coming "great tribulation". Would an event like Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly dimension in our 'earthly' dimension point to the cause of the "great tribulation"? You bet it would, and will.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That idea right there of overcoming by The Blood of Jesus Christ (The Lamb), is further proof that this 'war' in heaven and casting out is for the very 'end' of this present world. That is the 5th Seal event of Revelation 6, which is about some of us that will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give a Testimony for Jesus Christ (see Mark 13).
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Satan knows he has but a short time? What short time might that be brethren? The shortened time of "great tribulation". Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 said He shortened it for the sake of His elect.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
That is about the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years. (see also Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 11:2-3)
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The "water as a flood" is symbolic of the LIES that will come out of Satan's MOUTH, along with what comes out of the locust's MOUTHS per Revelation 9. It is all about 'deception' for the end. Apostle Paul called it the "strong delusion". Symbolically, for Christ's elect in that future "great tribulation", these flood of LIES won't work on Christ's very elect, for they cannot be deceived (Matthew 24:24).
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
Who are those that have that "testimony of Jesus Christ"? Christ's Church, of course. Thus the first half of this Revelation 12 chapter pointed to the symbolic "woman" as Old Testament Israel, but for this latter half it is pointing to the cross and Christ's Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, together as one body.
The devil and his angels are coming here, it's time to prepare for it, and prepare your children for it, warning them against the coming deception. Per the Revelation 13:4-8 Scripture, the whole world is going to worship that "dragon" in place of God, think that he is God with his working great signs, wonders, and miracles, even raining fire down from heaven "in the sight of men" (Rev.13).
Even in the parables of Ezekiel 28 about Satan, verse 18 shows God is going to bring a fire from within him to destroy him upon the earth, in sight of those who see him. Those are earthly dimension references brethren, not heavenly dimension ones. This will be hard to understand for many, but Satan and his angels coming to our earthly dimension is what God's Word is actually pointing to for the end, and the majority of the world will be deceived by it.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Did that "power of His Christ" happen back at Satan's original rebellion of old? You should easily know that can ONLY point to a time AFTER the cross. And since that above event is linked to the previous 7-8 verses, this points directly to the very end of this world, to the coming "great tribulation". Would an event like Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly dimension in our 'earthly' dimension point to the cause of the "great tribulation"? You bet it would, and will.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That idea right there of overcoming by The Blood of Jesus Christ (The Lamb), is further proof that this 'war' in heaven and casting out is for the very 'end' of this present world. That is the 5th Seal event of Revelation 6, which is about some of us that will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give a Testimony for Jesus Christ (see Mark 13).
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Satan knows he has but a short time? What short time might that be brethren? The shortened time of "great tribulation". Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 said He shortened it for the sake of His elect.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
That is about the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years. (see also Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 11:2-3)
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The "water as a flood" is symbolic of the LIES that will come out of Satan's MOUTH, along with what comes out of the locust's MOUTHS per Revelation 9. It is all about 'deception' for the end. Apostle Paul called it the "strong delusion". Symbolically, for Christ's elect in that future "great tribulation", these flood of LIES won't work on Christ's very elect, for they cannot be deceived (Matthew 24:24).
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
Who are those that have that "testimony of Jesus Christ"? Christ's Church, of course. Thus the first half of this Revelation 12 chapter pointed to the symbolic "woman" as Old Testament Israel, but for this latter half it is pointing to the cross and Christ's Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, together as one body.
The devil and his angels are coming here, it's time to prepare for it, and prepare your children for it, warning them against the coming deception. Per the Revelation 13:4-8 Scripture, the whole world is going to worship that "dragon" in place of God, think that he is God with his working great signs, wonders, and miracles, even raining fire down from heaven "in the sight of men" (Rev.13).
Even in the parables of Ezekiel 28 about Satan, verse 18 shows God is going to bring a fire from within him to destroy him upon the earth, in sight of those who see him. Those are earthly dimension references brethren, not heavenly dimension ones. This will be hard to understand for many, but Satan and his angels coming to our earthly dimension is what God's Word is actually pointing to for the end, and the majority of the world will be deceived by it.
Good thread…When I think of this question I think of right now.
As Long as we are aware he is always there, there shouldn’t be a problem.
Mark 13:33. Says we should just be aware. That’s good enough for me as I see it.
As Long as we are aware he is always there, there shouldn’t be a problem.
Mark 13:33. Says we should just be aware. That’s good enough for me as I see it.
Actually, Lord Jesus is pointing to His command for us to 'watch' those main SIGNS of the end He gave there. That's what Mark 13:33 is about, because... no man knows the day or hour of His coming. That's why He gave us those SIGNS to be watching leading up to His return...
Mark 13:35-37
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV
Precisely,,, I watch the main signs.
I pretty much know my triggers.
I know what usually makes me falter.
My vulnerabilities usually help me to connect with others and help squelch the enemy of our souls.
Blessings
Good respoce.
I posted a verse by verse teaching on the Revelation in the Doctrinal Section of our site. I would be interested in your looking at it and giving your input.
I believe Satan has "access" to God today. The book of Job clearly ssys that Satan came before God to give a report. But does this mean Satan can still appear before the Lord today? Scripture is less clear regarding this question, but likely this is still the case or at least I believe that he does.. It seems Satan will have some access to God's presence, as God permits it, until Christ returns to earth at the end of the tribulation.
However that will end in Rev. 12:7 IMHO and he is removed forever from God presence.
OK brother, but I realize you may not agree with what all I see about it, because that's a very difficult prophetic book in many places.
Lucifer and satan are the same. The angel Lucifer was called the 'light bringer', the highest appointment for a angel. After being cast out, the light was extinguished so to speak, and now called satan. Lucifer was cast out before the creation of earth and human beings. Satan was present in the Garden of Eden and still present in the world today.
Yes it is. The key to Bible interpretation, especially for the book of Revelation, is to have a consistent hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation. In other words, it is the way you interpret Scripture. A normal hermeneutic or normal interpretation of Scripture means that unless the verse or passage clearly indicates the author was using figurative language, it should be understood in its normal sense. We are not to look for other meanings if the natural meaning of the sentence makes sense. Also, we are not to spiritualize Scripture by assigning meanings to words or phrases when it is clear the author, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, meant it to be understood as it is.
Just a question to think about Moose. It appears that Satan is completely removed from access to heaven in Revelation 12 & 13. If he is totally removed from heave.........dosent that imply that up to that point he had some kind of access???
Only if you take Rev 12 as future cast out. My post #10 in this thread lays out what I understand to be past and future in Rev 12.
OK. Thanks.
Did you consider Zechariah 3, where Satan appeared before God to accuse Joshua of wrongdoing. Do you think that shows Satan still had access to heaven in the Old Testament period.