Who Is The Great Whore Referred To In Revelation?

Barnabas said:
I don't see what's so special about an assortment of cities to warrant the attention that the Whore of Babylon gets. No city in the world has more relevance to scripture than Jerusalem. And, by speaking of the Jerusalem above as the bride of Christ, we have a dichotomy of the unfaithful whore Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed, vs. the faithful Jerusalem that is above. Rome was never God's bride so Rome's faithless or whoring wouldn't be as much of an issue.

The whore also sits on 7 hills. Relatively few cities have a reputation of being on 7 hills. Jerusalem's hills are named in scripture, such as the hill where Jesus was killed. Nowhere in scripture are any of Rome's hills acknowledge.



I see nothing in your quote about a "revived Roman empire." The cities identified in your quote wouldn't be the first places to be named if the subject is the Roman empire.
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My dear brother. I gave you those cities to show you that not only Jerusalem was listed as a whore in the Scriptures. You once again did not grasp what you said in comparison to the response to that.

I agree that Jerusalem is the most relevant city in Scripture. However that distinction does not by itself make it the whore of Revelation.

Jerusalem is NOT THE BRIDE of Christ. Once again you have not grasped what was said my friend and instead have interjected what you think. The Church is the Bride of Christ and New Jerusalem will be its home for all of eternity according to Rev. 21. Therefor to say that Rome was never God's bride is totally in error as it simply is not Biblical in any way at all.

The fact that the hills of Rome are not named in Scripture does not remove the archeological fact that they in fact do exist.

I do not mean to be mean spirited, and I hope you do not take my response as such. It seems we are going to disagree on this.
 
...so the CATHOLIC CHURCH is the whore of Babylon???
I know there are some anto-Catholics here, but isn't this a little bit far-fetched?
 
I'm not anti-Catholic nor am I anti-Protestant but the leadership of any denomination can be subverted.
 
Major said:
Jerusalem is NOT THE BRIDE of Christ.
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Jerusalem, representing Israel and Judah, was the bride of Christ, meaning God. God divorced Israel, Jer 3:8, because she was a whore, and later also sent Judah away for whoring, proving that Jerusalem was the bride of Christ. Now we have the new Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above, the church, as the bride of Christ

The fact that the hills of Rome are not named in Scripture does not remove the archeological fact that they in fact do exist.
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The difference is that the Bible, old and new, pays a great deal of attention to the hills of Jerusalem, and none of the hills of Rome.
 
Barnabas said:
Jerusalem, representing Israel and Judah, was the bride of Christ, meaning God. God divorced Israel, Jer 3:8, because she was a whore, and later also sent Judah away for whoring, proving that Jerusalem was the bride of Christ. Now we have the new Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above, the church, as the bride of Christ



The difference is that the Bible, old and new, pays a great deal of attention to the hills of Jerusalem, and none of the hills of Rome.
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No sir. I must say to you that you are in error. Jerusalem could not be the bride of Christ. The church itself did not exist and Christ died for the church in New Test. days. Therefore it is impossible for the bride to be Jerusalem.

Not only that but when Israel broke their covenant with God, He called it a divorce (Jeremiah 3:8) and when the covenant is renewed it will be like a remarriage (Hosea 2:7). I understand that but it seems that you have added your personal theology into those Bible verses and are trying to make them fit your theology instead of accepting as they were given to us.

The verses in Jere. and Hosea in no way changes or negates the relationship Jesus has with the Church. You are using those verse to substantiate your opinion by saying Jerusalem was divorced by God, so evidently God turned to the Church.

Have you forgotten that in 2 Cor. 11:2 Paul wrote......
“I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”

In the Greek language this carries the implication of a betrothal.

And in Rev. 21:9-10 the angel showed John the bride of the Lamb coming down out of heaven. It was the New Jerusalem, the exclusive home of the Church.

But here is what you are completely missing my brother. It’s important to remember that all this is symbolic. God didn’t really marry Israel, in the sense of an earthly marriage. Nor will Jesus marry the church in that way. The reason these relationships are expressed in terms of a marriage is to give us a better view of how intimate and exclusive they are. It’s a heavenly concept expressed in earthly terms to help us understand it.

Forgive me if that seems harsh. I am just trying to get you to see where you are coming from and it just will not work the way you are trying to make it.

The truth is about those 7 hills and the whore of Rev. NO ONE KNOWS! I certainly do not know but I am very confident that it is not Jerusalem.

But the fact is that Rome in fact does sit on 7 hills. That is a geographical fact.

Rev. 18 definitely describes the city call the whore of Babylon as a SEA Port and that does not fit Jerusalem.
 
Major said:
The church itself did not exist and Christ died for the church in New Test. days. Therefore it is impossible for the bride to be Jerusalem.

Not only that but when Israel broke their covenant with God, He called it a divorce (Jeremiah 3:8) and when the covenant is renewed it will be like a remarriage (Hosea 2:7).
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(I did not say the NT church existed in the OT)

Jerusalem, the heart of Israel, was Christ's bride. But, he divorced her because she was whore. The Church, the New Jerusalem is Christ's new bride.

God will not remarry that whore old Jerusalem. God said remarrying an ex-spouse is an abomination. God called old Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt in the very same letter he speaks of the new Jerusalem as the bride of Christ. Jesus has a new bride, and so won't be reuniting with the old.

Hosea 2:7 is not about remarriage to the whore, but about an invitation to the children of the old marriage to be children of the new marriage.

Rev. 18 definitely describes the city call the whore of Babylon as a SEA Port and that does not fit Jerusalem.
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Rome isn't a seaside city, yet you said the whore certainly could be Rome. If Rev 18 can fit Rome, even though Rome isn't a seaport, then it could fit Jerusalem. But, Rev 18 doesn't mean literal merchants any more than it means a literal whoring woman.

Jerusalem, Israel, is the great whore spoken of in Revelation.
 
Barnabas said:
(I did not say the NT church existed in the OT)

Jerusalem, the heart of Israel, was Christ's bride. But, he divorced her because she was whore. The Church, the New Jerusalem is Christ's new bride.

God will not remarry that whore old Jerusalem. God said remarrying an ex-spouse is an abomination. God called old Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt in the very same letter he speaks of the new Jerusalem as the bride of Christ. Jesus has a new bride, and so won't be reuniting with the old.

Hosea 2:7 is not about remarriage to the whore, but about an invitation to the children of the old marriage to be children of the new marriage.



Rome isn't a seaside city, yet you said the whore certainly could be Rome. If Rev 18 can fit Rome, even though Rome isn't a seaport, then it could fit Jerusalem. But, Rev 18 doesn't mean literal merchants any more than it means a literal whoring woman.

Jerusalem, Israel, is the great whore spoken of in Revelation.
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I know you didn't say the church was in the Old Test.

You said Jerusalem was the Bride in the Old Test.(comment # 25).

Rome is not actually on the Mediterranean Sea. It is located on the Tiber River, and the Tiber is way too small for cruise ships to sail on. Ancient legends report that Rome was founded on the seven hills flanking the Tiber by the two brothers Romulus and Remus. Cruise ships port at Civitavecchia, and passengers can visit the city with a one-hour ride by bus or train. Visiting Rome by cruise ship is much like visiting Florence--it's not that easy to get from the sea to the city, but it's well worth the trip.
(http://cruises.about.com/cs/europe/a/rome.htm).

I was not sure, but there you are!

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

Its habitation will be New Jerusalem, the Pearly White City of God according to Rev. 21..
 
I'm going to assume Huntingteckel means that it's absurd to single out a denomination of Christianity as being the whore of Revelation. As was done with the Catholic Church here earlier.
 
The great Harlot of Revelation... Mystery Babylon....

This is a fun one I have recently stumbled through myself....

There are some hints you NEED to pay attention to......
Here's one....
In her is the blood of ALL the saints!
In this case - "Saint" means saints in the Biblical sense (Duh)... meaning an Anointed/set apart one.... not the more recent conception of magical miracle worker....
Remember that there were plenty of Old Testament saints too....

So... Question.....
Was there ONE saint killed by Judaism? - Well.. Yes, plenty.... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Catholicism? - Well... Yes, plenty... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Protestants? Yep.
Islam - Absolutely
Buddhism - Yep
Communism - Yep
Capitalism - Yep....
And others too....

Second hint....
Fornication with the Rulers of the Earth.....
What does this mean? Well... Whoring yourself out means taking Money or Privaleges for your interests.....
So... Are there instances of the above taking money or privaleges for their interest?
Yes... All of them...

So... Between these TWO - I can already make the case that ONE, SINGULAR denomination or sect can't be the WHOLE harlot by herself..... But.. it provides CLUES on what to look for....

Now... a little history....

The Rulers of the World have historically been fairly inept at keeping the People under control for any more than a short time... Track it back to Nimrod... but the pattern is the same... Rulers TAKE power by Violence.. Violence breeds violence.... and your Empire only lasts as long as you are the MOST violent one.. That's not a Sustainable model.

Enter Organized Religion.... Religion is VERY GOOD at getting people to go along with stuff... It's GOD'S will after all..... But.. Religion doesn't always go along with RULERS....

So... Rulers cut Religion a deal.... YOU keep the people under control and keep them out of the way of US Ruling as we see fit... and We give YOU a cut of the action.... You get variously:
Official tax collection
Government builds Temples for you
Protection of YOUR right to worship
Tax exemptions
Religious leaders get political standing
Religious leaders get Civil standing
Religious leaders get Rich
Rulers bring ZILLIONS of officially sanctioned followers...

And... Thus was born the Great Harlot!

So... Look for:
Religion working to keep the PEOPLE under control so the Rulers can Rule
Religious leaders earning Privileges and Power to do such... .

Yeah... That's when I went "Gulp".... because you see this in A LOT of churches.... Not just the ones that people LOVE to point towards and say "Hey, Look, the Great Harlot"
 
Well, I don't think anyone outright said it, altho Rome or the "revised" or new Roman empire was mentioned. In any event, I don't think the whore is a church denomination. But Rome persecuted the Jews, destroyed the 2nd Temple and caused the diaspora. And yet, I don't think seaport fits either Rome or Jerusalem. Was it Aleppo Abdicate mentioned? And the whole of Israel was said to have "whored" after false Gods. And I don't "see" whores so much as "unfaithful" but more bought and sold - often veritable slaves. Modern day, one can't help thinking of Hollywood.
 
JohnC said:
The great Harlot of Revelation... Mystery Babylon....

This is a fun one I have recently stumbled through myself....

There are some hints you NEED to pay attention to......
Here's one....
In her is the blood of ALL the saints!
In this case - "Saint" means saints in the Biblical sense (Duh)... meaning an Anointed/set apart one.... not the more recent conception of magical miracle worker....
Remember that there were plenty of Old Testament saints too....

So... Question.....
Was there ONE saint killed by Judaism? - Well.. Yes, plenty.... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Catholicism? - Well... Yes, plenty... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Protestants? Yep.
Islam - Absolutely
Buddhism - Yep
Communism - Yep
Capitalism - Yep....
And others too....

Second hint....
Fornication with the Rulers of the Earth.....
What does this mean? Well... Whoring yourself out means taking Money or Privaleges for your interests.....
So... Are there instances of the above taking money or privaleges for their interest?
Yes... All of them...

So... Between these TWO - I can already make the case that ONE, SINGULAR denomination or sect can't be the WHOLE harlot by herself..... But.. it provides CLUES on what to look for....

Now... a little history....

The Rulers of the World have historically been fairly inept at keeping the People under control for any more than a short time... Track it back to Nimrod... but the pattern is the same... Rulers TAKE power by Violence.. Violence breeds violence.... and your Empire only lasts as long as you are the MOST violent one.. That's not a Sustainable model.

Enter Organized Religion.... Religion is VERY GOOD at getting people to go along with stuff... It's GOD'S will after all..... But.. Religion doesn't always go along with RULERS....

So... Rulers cut Religion a deal.... YOU keep the people under control and keep them out of the way of US Ruling as we see fit... and We give YOU a cut of the action.... You get variously:
Official tax collection
Government builds Temples for you
Protection of YOUR right to worship
Tax exemptions
Religious leaders get political standing
Religious leaders get Civil standing
Religious leaders get Rich
Rulers bring ZILLIONS of officially sanctioned followers...

And... Thus was born the Great Harlot!

So... Look for:
Religion working to keep the PEOPLE under control so the Rulers can Rule
Religious leaders earning Privileges and Power to do such... .

Yeah... That's when I went "Gulp".... because you see this in A LOT of churches.... Not just the ones that people LOVE to point towards and say "Hey, Look, the Great Harlot"
Click to expand...

Rofl - cut to to the chase and say what or rather who you think the whore is?
 
JohnC said:
And... Thus was born the Great Harlot!

So... Look for:
Religion working to keep the PEOPLE under control so the Rulers can Rule
Religious leaders earning Privileges and Power to do such... ."
Click to expand...

Don't you know the great whore is a city? Jerusalem, to be precise.

Rulers generally hate religion, because God is competition for the people's loyalty. So, your thesis is backwards.
 
It's funny - you mentioned Nimrod and wasn't it him or his people responsible for the Tower of Babel. I stink at geography - what lands did he and his people own? It's interesting because the tower was hi tech for then and man's try to be like God (again!)
 
The physical city of Jerusalem can't be Mystery Babylon in my opinion... Doesn't fit scripture...
#1 The city of Jerusalem has not been clothed in Purple, Scarlet and Gold for the past 2,000 years
#2 The city of Jerusalem has not been a major profit center for world trade for the past 2,000 years
#3 The physical city of Jerusalem will most likely not be transported physically to the Plain of Shinar (The physical location of Babylon) to be set upon the base prepared for her there....
#4 The physical city of Jerusalem has not been "Riding on the Back" of the beast of 10 horns, exercising worldly power over the nations for the past 2,000 years....

I will let you sort out the scripture references... but I could cite at least 20 more....

Jerusalem has been a dumpy, rundown mess for 2,000 years.... Jerusalem HAS been the Cup of Trembling....

Barnabas' other point about the Rulers HATING organized religion because they have to SHARE power with her.....
Absolutely TRUE....
This is the Judgement of Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17 - 19

Notice it is the Rulers of the World that are destroying Mystery Babylon in Rev 17: 16-17... Because they HATE her... Consistent with Barnabas' point....

Don't mistake allowing and cooperating with a necessary evil as the same as actually LOVING this necessary evil.... Even today, most Rulers consider keeping religion around to be a necessary evil to keep civil violence under control.....

Now.... 17:18 - at some point, Mystery Babylon will coalesce into ONE major power center.... and there will be a gigantic judgement upon that place... If I was a betting man.... I would lean towards "On the plains of Shinar" as where this will occur.... I could be wrong, though.

Thanks
 
JohnC said:
The great Harlot of Revelation... Mystery Babylon....

This is a fun one I have recently stumbled through myself....

There are some hints you NEED to pay attention to......
Here's one....
In her is the blood of ALL the saints!
In this case - "Saint" means saints in the Biblical sense (Duh)... meaning an Anointed/set apart one.... not the more recent conception of magical miracle worker....
Remember that there were plenty of Old Testament saints too....

So... Question.....
Was there ONE saint killed by Judaism? - Well.. Yes, plenty.... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Catholicism? - Well... Yes, plenty... but not ALL of them....
Was there ONE saint killed by Protestants? Yep.
Islam - Absolutely
Buddhism - Yep
Communism - Yep
Capitalism - Yep....
And others too....

Second hint....
Fornication with the Rulers of the Earth.....
What does this mean? Well... Whoring yourself out means taking Money or Privaleges for your interests.....
So... Are there instances of the above taking money or privaleges for their interest?
Yes... All of them...

So... Between these TWO - I can already make the case that ONE, SINGULAR denomination or sect can't be the WHOLE harlot by herself..... But.. it provides CLUES on what to look for....

Now... a little history....

The Rulers of the World have historically been fairly inept at keeping the People under control for any more than a short time... Track it back to Nimrod... but the pattern is the same... Rulers TAKE power by Violence.. Violence breeds violence.... and your Empire only lasts as long as you are the MOST violent one.. That's not a Sustainable model.

Enter Organized Religion.... Religion is VERY GOOD at getting people to go along with stuff... It's GOD'S will after all..... But.. Religion doesn't always go along with RULERS....

So... Rulers cut Religion a deal.... YOU keep the people under control and keep them out of the way of US Ruling as we see fit... and We give YOU a cut of the action.... You get variously:
Official tax collection
Government builds Temples for you
Protection of YOUR right to worship
Tax exemptions
Religious leaders get political standing
Religious leaders get Civil standing
Religious leaders get Rich
Rulers bring ZILLIONS of officially sanctioned followers...

And... Thus was born the Great Harlot!

So... Look for:
Religion working to keep the PEOPLE under control so the Rulers can Rule
Religious leaders earning Privileges and Power to do such... .

Yeah... That's when I went "Gulp".... because you see this in A LOT of churches.... Not just the ones that people LOVE to point towards and say "Hey, Look, the Great Harlot"
Click to expand...
I never thought of it that way. That's very informative.
 
So... My current opinion... and take it for exactly what you paid for it....

I think that "Mystery Babylon" will be made up of a conglomeration of Organized State Religion that "Carries the water" for a large group of Rulers of the earth... If I had to go straight out of Revelation - I would look at the predominate state religions of the 7 heads and 10 horns..... At this point, it is not united, so there's no telling who the final players will be.... but if prophecy is any indication... we will see MANY otherwise unlikely bedfellows unite into a major power structure based on the old saw of "Cooperation", "Toleration", and "Moderation" that will ensure that the Rulers can Rule unfettered....

I think we can all guess a short list likely to be in the mix based on history and/or current trends........ but don't JUST include Christian denominations.... Sunni Islam has been carrying the water for Middle Eastern Dictators for hundreds of years...

Thanks
 
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