Who Is The Holy Spirit?

[Major]

There is only one reason why we do not see very much of the same working of wonders that were seen in the early days of the Church, although they do happen still!

UNBELIEF.

This saddens me. I do not find the focus of the conversation to be on faith.

Are the believers who accept the teachings of the Pentecostal/Word of Faith beyond being questioned?
Are they not to be questioned by any one without the idea of an answer being a lack of faith?

When a loved one dies at the age of two, how can the only answer be....."She died because of a lack of faith on mom and dad."
Or, you have un-confessed sin in your life.

It seems to me that in the letter of Jude, we find him exhorting the believers to contend for their faith among those in the church. Today we find those who claim to have more of it than others. That is the real issue I think. When we read and hear of the miracles and tongues and so on, it is always about what that person did or can do. That alone is a problem for me. NO ONE has more of God's blessings than does another person. The ground at the foot of the cross is level and we all share equally in Christ.

Now, nowhere do we find the apostles preaching they are anointed and they certainly did not imply they were more so than others. The danger of these mislead leaders of today is that they will cause divisions without realizing the harm they do, nor the judgment that they will eventually incur upon themselves.

 

[Major]

You're listening to religious folk.

Mark 16:17-18 describes the BELIEVER--period.
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.

You are correct! As I stated already.......

2 Corth. 12:12..................
“ Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

That is the Word of God and can not be changed. The sign of an apostle was the miracles done, this distinguished them from the other believers. We agree on that but that is realy not the focus of our conversation. We are talking about today.

Unlike those who claim miraculous healings today the apostles healed totally and instantaneously. It was permanent not as some claim today that one must continue in faith or the devil will steal it away. They were able to heal all such as Paul on the Island of Malta in Acts 28 healed Publius and the rest of the people who had diseases came to him. He was also able to be unaffected by a poisenous snake. They healed organic disease on those from birth. They raised the dead . Peter raised Dorcas Acts 9:36-42, Paul raised Eutyches back to life after he fell 3 stories Acts 20:6-12. Like Jesus it was by a word or a touch, as God approved their office it was immediate and permanent . That is not in question at all.

Acts 2:43........
“Then fear came upon every soul and many signs and wonders are done through the apostles.

Acts 5:12..........
“And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people.

Acts 14:3.........
” Paul and Barnabas speak boldly in the Lord, who bears witness to His word of grace, granting signs sign and wonders to be done through their hands.”

All these and many more scriptures show that the apostles were special men commissioned for a unique role in a particular time period for the Church.

Ephesians 2:20........
“Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…"

Notice past tense, been built. Once a foundation is laid it does not need to be laid down again, it is built upon “ It was upon these men the apostles and prophets that the foundation the church was built on, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Those who claim apostolic authority today are attempting to rebuild the church whose foundation was already laid and built.

Blessing to you.

 

[Euphemia]

This saddens me. I do not find the focus of the conversation to be on faith.

Are the believers who accept the teachings of the Pentecostal/Word of Faith beyond being questioned?
Are they not to be questioned by any one without the idea of an answer being a lack of faith?

When a loved one dies at the age of two, how can the only answer be....."She died because of a lack of faith on mom and dad."
Or, you have un-confessed sin in your life.

People die untimely deaths all the time, Major! Satan is the destroyer---he is the one who kills. Do you think that Jesus blames people for the deaths of their children? Not everyone is aware of the power of their faith and the authority they have as believers over sickness and death. God is still in the redeeming and healing business of people who grieve. He is not slamming them for not taking authority over these things.

It seems to me that in the letter of Jude, we find him exhorting the believers to contend for their faith among those in the church. Today we find those who claim to have more of it than others. That is the real issue I think. When we read and hear of the miracles and tongues and so on, it is always about what that person did or can do. That alone is a problem for me. NO ONE has more of God's blessings than does another person. The ground at the foot of the cross is level and we all share equally in Christ.

Now, nowhere do we find the apostles preaching they are anointed and they certainly did not imply they were more so than others. The danger of these mislead leaders of today is that they will cause divisions without realizing the harm they do, nor the judgment that they will eventually incur upon themselves.

The apostles were anointed and so are we, if we have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That comes with a depth of spiritual blessing that those who are not anointed do not experience---sorry to say, but it is true.

 

[Euphemia]

There are apostles today.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT)
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

 

[Major]

You're listening to religious folk.

Mark 16:17-18 describes the BELIEVER--period.
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.

NO my dear sister. I do not listen to religious folk. Never have and I am to old to start now.

It is not about "religion" at all. It is about Christ and Him living through us. It is about the Word of God and what it says to our minds and hearts.

It seems clear that on this topic we are not going to agree. That is OK. I have been telling my wife for 46 years that I am really cute and she hasn't agreed with me yet but we still love each other.

 

[Major]

There are apostles today.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT)
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

Really? Not according to the Word of God. Now that may be what the denomination teaches you, but it is not the Word of God. So lets be clear here on this.

Paul's own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor. 9:1: “Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord?

If this is the Word of God on who can be an apostle, and yet we say that there are apostles today. Would you please clarify your assertion and where it comes from.

You see, according to the Bible, essentially there were two different groups those who were with Jesus when he was alive and then were witnesses of his resurrection and Paul as one who was witness to his resurrection only not having him be of the 12.

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul describes the gospel and concentrates on the resurrection and the sequence of his appearing during the 40 day period after the resurrection.Vs.5..............
“And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: then by over 500.”
Vs.7 “Then he was seen by James then by all the apostles.”

After the resurrection the “twelve”, is a number used to Identify the apostles originally with Jesus. This does not necessarily mean their were 12 only gathered to see him. It certainly did not include Matthias with the 12, although the apostles picked him after Jesus ascended.

Their is no account of a special appearance to him or anyone else as was with Paul only. The term 12 identified them as the group number that began with John and saw the resurrection. But from the group of 500 he appeared to, there were apostles among them as well as in vs.7 Then the apostles all.

Other requirements were a part of this first qualification of being with Jesus from the time of John and a witness to the resurrection.

An apostle must have been taught divine truth by Jesus personally (Galatians1:1,12; 1Corinthians15:3).

Only 10 were commissioned together as Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit to signify their unity and authority to forgive sins as they proclaimed the Gospel (John 20:19-23).

Thomas was not among them and neither was Matthias. The exception is Paul who was taught personally by Christ while he was in Arabia for 3 years. When he emerged he had the same teaching as the 12. (Jn.14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor.9:1:1 Tim.2:7) So an apostle will agree with the already commissioned apostles in Scripture.

Now, would you consider explaining your comments in light of these Bible truths?

 

[Major]

People die untimely deaths all the time, Major! Satan is the destroyer---he is the one who kills. Do you think that Jesus blames people for the deaths of their children? Not everyone is aware of the power of their faith and the authority they have as believers over sickness and death. God is still in the redeeming and healing business of people who grieve. He is not slamming them for not taking authority over these things.



The apostles were anointed and so are we, if we have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That comes with a depth of spiritual blessing that those who are not anointed do not experience---sorry to say, but it is true.

Yes, the apostles were anointed and THEY had the "sign gifts". THEY SAW Jesus, THEY were TAUGHT personally by Jesus.

If you are going to stand on the thought that we have apostles today, then several things must be changed in the Bible for that to be valid.

Then there is the obvious question, IF we have apostles today who the "sign gifts", why are they not going from one hospital to another healing the sick and infirmed and in the funeral homes raising the dead????

 

[Major]

But the signs and wonders were not limited to the Apostles only.. I would look at signs and wonders being needed to authenticate the Gospel itself rather than authenticity of Apostles alone..

After Pentecost, Holy Spirit was no longer limited to select few.. When Paul wrote to Corinth Church about prophesy, tongues and the order to be maintained, he is not condemning about false prophesy.. He is only talking about order in Church.. Which would clearly mean, Corinth church did exercise gifts of the spirit.. They did not know how to use it in order, like most of the churches today!

This is another clear indication that the gifts would serve 2 purpose.. If it was only for the purpose of validating Gospel, then there would have been no need to pour out the Spirit on all flesh.. Holy Spirit today moves in us to build the body of Christ.. Gifts are for edification as well..

I think there is no true cessasionist! Preaching, teaching, music, etc is certainly a gift from God! You are one living testimony Major That spiritual gifts do exist today! The debate is always on what gifts have ceased to exist.. I do not find scriptural evidence to say that God has taken off certain gifts alone from His church..

Luke 10:17
When the seventy-two disciples returned, they joyfully reported to him, “Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!”

Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Acts 8:6
Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.

Thank you for your kind words.

As for gifts.......when I use that term, I am referring to the "Sign Gifts".

They were given as the Bible teaches us for a specific reason...A SIGN.

They validated the words of the Apostles so that their teaching was accepted as coming directly from God...which it did.

Preaching, teaching, signing, helps are certainly spiritual gifts from God to man, but I am not referring to them.

 

[Euphemia]

Yes, the apostles were anointed and THEY had the "sign gifts". THEY SAW Jesus, THEY were TAUGHT personally by Jesus.

If you are going to stand on the thought that we have apostles today, then several things must be changed in the Bible for that to be valid.

Then there is the obvious question, IF we have apostles today who the "sign gifts", why are they not going from one hospital to another healing the sick and infirmed and in the funeral homes raising the dead????

There is nothing in scripture that teaches that an apostles must have seen Jesus personally to have the office of apostle. Paul, 1 Corinthians 12, talks about apostleship as part of the unity of functioning of the churches of Jesus Christ.

Apostles' functions as writers of scripture are no longer needed, but they do function as they always have in the area of planting of churches and their administration. Many of them have other giftings, such as the gift of prophecy, knowledge and healing.

 

[Major]

There is nothing in scripture that teaches that an apostles must have seen Jesus personally to have the office of apostle. Paul, 1 Corinthians 12, talks about apostleship as part of the unity of functioning of the churches of Jesus Christ.

Apostles' functions as writers of scripture are no longer needed, but they do function as they always have in the area of planting of churches and their administration. Many of them have other giftings, such as the gift of prophecy, knowledge and healing.

But darling......that is just not true. I just posted them to you !!!

Paul's own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor 9:1:
“Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord?"

Paul's words substantiate his claim to apostleship as seen in Acts 1:21 & 22, 9:3-9 & 17. One has to agree that we would expect to see the evidence of his ministry as an apostle if one was claimed. How can that be dismissed by "There is nothing in scripture that teaches that an apostles must have seen Jesus personally to have the office of apostle."

That is just not the case. The Corinthian assembly itself was that evidence, hence whether anyone else considered Paul an apostle, there was absolutely no ground for any doubt from that assembly.

If this is the Word of God on who can be an apostle, and yet we say that there are apostles today.

In 1 Cor 15 Paul describes the gospel and concentrates on the resurrection and the sequence of his appearing during the 40 day period after the resurrection.Vs.5..............
“And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: then by over 500.”
Vs.7 “Then he was seen by James then by all the apostles.”

An apostle must have been taught divine truth by Jesus personally.

Gal. 1:3
"Paul an apostle, not of men but by Jesus Christ................".

11-12
"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

When considering Matthias as an apostle, the requirements were.............
Acts 1:22
"Beginning from the baptism of John unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection".

Then when Paul tells of his conversion and meeting with Jesus he said in
Acts 22:14
"And He said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will and SEE THAT JUST ONE and shouldest HEAR THE VOICE OF HIS MOUTH".

1 Corinthians 9:1............
"Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not SEEN JESUS CHRIST our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord"?

Anyone under consideration for apostleship in the New Test. needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them. That is, he needed to be an eye-witness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work. He needed to have heard Jesus’ life-changing teachings and been present to see His healings and other miracles. He needed to have witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection. These were the pivotal facts of Jesus’ life, the heart of the message they were to teach, and personal witnesses were required to verify the truth of the good news.

Now anyone is free to disagree with me but what I have put before you is the Bible facts as they are recorded. Please understand that you are not disagreeing with me but in fact your disagreeing with the Word of God. I know that a lot of people view these words and do not comment. I encourage you all to look up the Bible verse I have listed, read them and pray over them and ask God to teach you the truth of what They say. It is an important issue.

As we all have seen right here on this discussion site, several groups that claim affiliation with the Christian religion allege to have apostles among them, including Catholicism, Mormonism, and some Pentecostal groups. This claim is unbiblical. No person living today can meet the qualifications given in Scripture for being an apostle. No one living today has been an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection. Christ has selected no one living today for the apostolic role. No one living today possesses the miraculous capabilities of an apostle.

 

[Euphemia]

Paul NEVER even breathes a suggestion that the office of apostle is for only those who have sen the Lord Jesus Christ. Your prerequisites that an apostle needs to be an eyewitness of the resurrection is also bogus. The false doctrine of cessationism has taken hold of you. Take a step back, ask Holy Spirit to speak and revisit the word.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT)
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

 

[Major]

Paul NEVER even breathes a suggestion that the office of apostle is for only those who have sen the Lord Jesus Christ. Your prerequisites that an apostle needs to be an eyewitness of the resurrection is also bogus. The false doctrine of cessationism has taken hold of you. Take a step back, ask Holy Spirit to speak and revisit the word.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT)
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

I totally understand how you feel because of your affiliation with the Word of Faith movement. Your comments are exactly what they teach in this particular situation and you are being faithful to that teaching.

However, the Bible is my source of information and I do not adhere to denominational teaching when it contradicts Bible language.

Again, here is the actual words of Paul concerning this thought.

Paul's own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor 9:1:
“Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord?"

Paul's words substantiate his claim to apostleship as seen in [URL='http://ebible.com/query?utf=8%E2%9C%93&query=Acts%201%3A21&translation=ESV&redirect_iframe=http://www.christianforumsite.com/pages/bible/']Acts 1:21 & 22, 9:3-9 & 17. One has to agree that we would expect to see the evidence of his ministry as an apostle if one was claimed. How can that be dismissed by "There is nothing in scripture that teaches that an apostles must have seen Jesus personally to have the office of apostle."
[/URL]

 

[Euphemia]

I totally understand how you feel because of your affiliation with the Word of Faith movement. Your comments are exactly what they teach in this particular situation and you are being faithful to that teaching.

I have no such affiliation. Perhaps you need to bone up on what the real Word of Faith means, instead of repeating malicious nonsense from questionable sources.

However, the Bible is my source of information and I do not adhere to denominational teaching when it contradicts Bible language.

The Bible is my source, and I do not adhere to denominational teaching. Go figure!

Again, here is the actual words of Paul concerning this thought.

Paul's own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor 9:1:
“Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord?"

http://ebible.com/query?utf=8✓&quer...ttp://www.christianforumsite.com/pages/bible/

LOL! That has nothing to do with a prerequisite for apostlehood. The only qualification is an anointing and an appointing by ?God Himself!

Paul's words substantiate his claim to apostleship as seen in

Acts 1:21 & 22, 9:3-9 & 17. One has to agree that we would expect to see the evidence of his ministry as an apostle if one was claimed. How can that be dismissed by "There is nothing in scripture that teaches that an apostles must have seen Jesus personally to have the office of apostle."

Yeah, so Paul claims to be an apostle. You have nothing that teaches us what the qualifications are except people who are subject to the Holy Spirit's anointing and gifting---which you deny. If you would accept what the bible plainly teaches, you wouldn't have this trouble.

 

[Abdicate]

- Original: ἀπόστολος
- Transliteration: Apostolos
- Phonetic: ap-os'-tol-os
- Definition:
1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

a. specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
b. in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers ​

1. of Barnabas
2. of Timothy and Silvanus
- Origin: from G649
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine

Another dictionary:

1. a delegate
2. (specially) an ambassador of the Gospel
3. (officially) a commissioner of Christ, "apostle" (with miraculous powers)
[from G649]
KJV: apostle, messenger, he that is sent


2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



When in doubt, go to the source

 

[Major]

I have no such affiliation. Perhaps you need to bone up on what the real Word of Faith means, instead of repeating malicious nonsense from questionable sources.



The Bible is my source, and I do not adhere to denominational teaching. Go figure!


LOL! That has nothing to do with a prerequisite for apostlehood. The only qualification is an anointing and an appointing by ?God Himself!



Yeah, so Paul claims to be an apostle. You have nothing that teaches us what the qualifications are except people who are subject to the Holy Spirit's anointing and gifting---which you deny. If you would accept what the bible plainly teaches, you wouldn't have this trouble.

I have no trouble at all sister. I read it and post what it says. If anyone chooses to reject it, that is their choice. It is never a problem for me.

For me personally it is clear as day.

But for those who have an agenda of needing to validate the sign gifts as still viable today, I certainly see why they must claim what the Bible states as muddy or ....."That has nothing to do with a prerequisite for apostlehood."

I do understand, but we will just be is disagreement over this.

 

[Euphemia]

I have no trouble at all sister. I read it and post what it says. If anyone chooses to reject it, that is their choice. It is never a problem for me.

For me personally it is clear as day.

SAME HERE.

But for those who have an agenda of needing to validate the sign gifts as still viable today, I certainly see why they must claim what the Bible states as muddy or ....."That has nothing to do with a prerequisite for apostlehood."

I do understand, but we will just be is disagreement over this.

Validation of the spiritual gifts is unneeded, as we who have them walk in them and employ them to the glory of God and His marvelous plan. God is the one who equips the called. Those who deny the gifts and callings as continuing on as long as the Church continues and has need of the gifts, then to them I say: "Sorry about your luck." The gifts are there for us to do what God calls us to do---with ease and success, but you who deny the gifting, would rather strive and toil and hope that it gets easier, and that you will have better results. The anointed don't have that same struggle.