Correct, but in the light of God's will is that 'none should perish' and yet He allowed satan to tempt A&E knowing that some would indeed perish?
Why Doesn't God...
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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Anyhow back to my original (extended for clarity) dilemma:
Why
CN, I'm somewhat perplexed as to why you seem to think that there is some sort of disconnect between what the Lord wills for all of mankind (in that none perish), and what actually is the reality that He chose as the path for mankind in order to separate out the sheep from the goats.
You, me, all of us here, have done things that go against the prime desire of our will we have for a person, thing or event, but we move forward based upon the ultimate, desired end result.
So, perhaps if you explained what you see as the dichotomy, we may better understand your position on all this.
MM
Apart from asking the Lord in person, the only thing we can really state as an answer to this is to observe what simply is.
Yes, the Lord stated that He WILLS that all men be saved, and not perish, but most don't want His gift of salvation, and so choose to perish.
So, what the Lord has done is to subject His Will for mankind to the freedom of choice He also has afforded to mankind, with the latter being the higher authority in what we can see as reality by way of His allowance.
We ALL have found ourselves in similar situations where we had to choose something in the list of our allowances as being the highest definition of our allowances for the sake of a desired outcome that outweighed everything else, even our own will for some other outcome. The Lord valued our freedom to choose above His own will that none perish.
So, what really is the problem, here? Do you disagree with the higher allowance above all the others in the lineup of the Lord's will?
MM
I believe A&E had true 'free will' to choose, both on a horizontal (the mundane) and the vertical plane (things pertaining to God).
Since the Fall, mankind has free will on the horizontal but not vertical plane unless there is an intervention of grace on God's part, otherwise we are slaves to sin, satan and the flesh.
You would have to show me Scripture backing up the concept of, "The Lord valued our freedom to choose above His own will that none perish.", in the light of the Fall and its devastating results.
Ahh, ok. I think I now see the dilemma. Unfortunately, this site doesn't allow debate on the extremes of Calvinism, although I could answer your questions as to where that freedom is found.
So, I will refrain from that path of discussion out of respect to the owner's rules.
MM
Please forgive me, but for clarity's sake allow me to make sure I am understanding you.
The idea you are focusing is "God's will is that 'none should perish'" and the key word "will" as in God's will. Am I correct?
Sorry to make a fuss but without clarification we will simply be talking past each other.
Fine, I'm not sure why you pursued it in the first place. I'm not a Calvinist, more of a Berean, that's why I asked 'where in Scripture can one find your statement, "The Lord valued our freedom to choose above His own will that none perish."'
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2 Peter 3:9 states, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
If so, and since God is omniscient, why did He allow satan to tempt A&E?.. (Instead of a "Why doesn't God?" question, it's more of a "Why did God?" question) that has given me speculative wonderment, That's all. (never meant it to bogart this thread).
Thank you. The only I can give you is free will. Human beings and angels cannot enter into a truly loving and caring relationship with God unless they are free to do so of their own volition. That means accepting the consequences of that free will which might bring total rejection.
As I said above, given that human beings have free will, I have no reason to believe that everyone for always and forever would have obeyed God. Any answer beyond that would be pure speculation on my part.
Nice discussing this with you. Again, thank you.
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In that regard, I simply point to how it really is:
1) The Lord gave to us the freedom to choose, with most choosing against the Lord's free offer, and gift of salvation,
2) while still harboring the desire that all men be saved.
The latter is a reflection of His perfect love, while the former is the means by which He fulfills His end result of having a people who are tried and true through the trials of sin in order to test the metal of each individual.
I answered your question about why the Lord allowed the garden temptation and the subsequent fall, so what is it about that answer you don't understand or like?
As to a specific verse, no. I don't know of one that would satisfactorily answer a question that's fundamentally flawed. The Lord showed to us what I have stated through how things are right now and throughout history, and in what is to come. He didn't inspire any one verse that encompasses all of that other than that we rely on our powers of observation.
Sorry if I sound overly simplistic, but it is what it is.
MM
That is what some might say is missing the forest for the trees, if I may invoke that proverbial phrase. Please look at that verse more carefully. Notice that is states the Lord's will that all men "...come to repentance," which would then lead to their not perishing. Right?
Now, were the Lord to force all men to repent, none of us would find true happiness in that world. We would be more like robots than free to make that choice for ourselves, having been tested and true for what we really are on the inside.
Are you saying that you would give up your freedom to choose just to see everyone forced to repent? That's not God's alternative since that's not the scenario that has played out, but you seem to esteem that avenue more highly than the one the Lord chose.
So, again I ask, what alternative would YOU suggest?
MM
Sorry, CN, it's just that you have my insatiable curiosity running full tilt, because what you've pointed out has some sort of reason behind it. If I understand your premises, then I may better understand the conclusion behind your question about God's willing that all be saved, and yet still allowing sin to sprout from the garden, spilling over into all men.
If that's pressing too deeply, then I understand, and will be content with what you've said thus far. This is not an assault, but rather just my trying to understand some of the depths of what your asking, and why.
Blessings to you and yours.
MM
If that's pressing too deeply, then I understand, and will be content with what you've said thus far. This is not an assault, but rather just my trying to understand some of the depths of what your asking, and why.
Blessings to you and yours.
MM
So, if we look into the ways of the Lord, we can surmise some things, especially in the arena of harm and evil. For example:
Psalm 64:9-10
9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.
10 The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory.
We see in this that even though it says that ALL men will fear, or reverence, and declare the work of God, we don't see the evidence of that around us. Most men have their hearts set upon evil while ignoring the Lord.
In contrast, we see this:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The Lord knew that not all men would repent. In fact, the reality is that most men have not, and will not, and yet He commanded what He knew in advance would go mostly ignored, even though we can assume verse 30 here to be a broad spectrum, all-inclusive commandment in its scope . How?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
And yet, the Lord knew from before the foundations of the world that most would not answer that call and that drawing.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Because the Lord desires that there no evil perpetrated one man against another, or against many, that drawing, that tug at the heart, or whatever we may call it, is something that is accorded to all. Not some, not most, but all.
Therein is the reason we see this:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
That's not talking only about the sexually perverse, but applies to all.
(sigh) I too am weary of the sin, and the daily battle with sin in my members, and that all repent and be saved.
The world would be a far better place, wouldn't it? At least, I would like to think so, but the harsh reality is that things are the way they are, and there's nobody who can answer all the "why's" apart from the Lord Himself.
I'd like to leave off with this as an encouragement in the midst of suffering and evil in the Sight of a Lord who loves us more than we can possibly fathom, even though we may at times not feel so loved or loving:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Evil and harm, then, in the lives of those who are called according to His Name, are avenues through which we receive good things. Yes, there are many a story of horrendous things done, and yet none of that nullifies the Power of the Most High in His ability to see to it that His word of performed absolutely as spoken through His inspired writings.
Amen
MM
Psalm 64:9-10
9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.
10 The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory.
We see in this that even though it says that ALL men will fear, or reverence, and declare the work of God, we don't see the evidence of that around us. Most men have their hearts set upon evil while ignoring the Lord.
In contrast, we see this:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The Lord knew that not all men would repent. In fact, the reality is that most men have not, and will not, and yet He commanded what He knew in advance would go mostly ignored, even though we can assume verse 30 here to be a broad spectrum, all-inclusive commandment in its scope . How?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
And yet, the Lord knew from before the foundations of the world that most would not answer that call and that drawing.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Because the Lord desires that there no evil perpetrated one man against another, or against many, that drawing, that tug at the heart, or whatever we may call it, is something that is accorded to all. Not some, not most, but all.
Therein is the reason we see this:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
That's not talking only about the sexually perverse, but applies to all.
(sigh) I too am weary of the sin, and the daily battle with sin in my members, and that all repent and be saved.
The world would be a far better place, wouldn't it? At least, I would like to think so, but the harsh reality is that things are the way they are, and there's nobody who can answer all the "why's" apart from the Lord Himself.
I'd like to leave off with this as an encouragement in the midst of suffering and evil in the Sight of a Lord who loves us more than we can possibly fathom, even though we may at times not feel so loved or loving:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Evil and harm, then, in the lives of those who are called according to His Name, are avenues through which we receive good things. Yes, there are many a story of horrendous things done, and yet none of that nullifies the Power of the Most High in His ability to see to it that His word of performed absolutely as spoken through His inspired writings.
Amen
MM
Perhaps God already does ______? Might it not be far worse...?
That is an excellent point. God must have a morally sufficient reasons for whatever He does.
Oh, my. There's no doubt that there are numbers of people who would consider it worse by way of just any word you use to fill in the blank.
MM
Good morning, LearningToLetGo and Origen;
I'd like to add that God doesn't make rash decisions, or make His reasons at the heat of the moment. Many times I assume God brings His thoughts and decisions the way I assume He would. Not so. This is why we get frustrated with impatience because I just can't figure Him out.