Why Have You Forsaken Me? –netchaplain

Webers_Home

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The "lower parts of the earth" seems to lend design mostly in reference to the grave of His body

Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't even buried in the earth's
soil. No, he was stuck in a rock on the surface of the earth.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish

Jonah was in two bellies at the same time: the belly of the fish (Jon 2:1) and the belly of sheol
(Jon 2:2). He described the belly of sheol as the roots of the mountains (Jon 2:6). Well, the roots
of the mountains aren't located in a fish's tummy, they're located deep in the earth's interior;
which is why Jonah said that the earth with its bars was closed about him instead of the lips of a
fish's mouth.

But how is it possible for Jonah to be inside the fish while at the same time inside the earth?
Well; the answer is pretty easy if we but simply allow that people exist beyond the demise of
their organic bodies. In other words: while Jonah was dead; his corpse was interred in the fish;
and his soul was interred in the netherworld.

According to Acts 2:25-31 while Christ was dead, he was in two places at once too: in a grave,
and in haides (hades); which is the Greek equivalent of the belly of sheol; which, according to
Mr. Jonah, is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains. Within three days and nights
Christ's soul was re-united with his corpse and he became a whole man again; just as Jonah was.

By whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison

They say timing is everything. Well; in this case, God's Spirit preached to the spirits in prison in
their day rather than Christ's; viz: while the ark was being built.

†. 1Pet 3:18-20 . . He was put to death in the body but made alive by The Spirit, through whom
also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited
patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

How did God's Spirit preach? With his own voice? No; with Noah's.

†. 2Pet 2:5 . . Noah; a preacher of righteousness

BTW: classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead; both the good dead and the bad dead.
So then, technically Abraham was in the very same afterlife location as the rich man in the
narrative recorded at Luke 16:19-31 only according to Luke 23:43, Abraham's half of hades was
much nicer.

Cliff
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I full-heartedly agree with what Bane said and the second part of your post Major. I did mention that Jesus is part of the God-head, but it does make more sense to think of Jesus as 'God the Son'.

I need to study scripture more on when Jesus actually went to hell. I have always believed that He went there from our sin and received power on the third day to be resurrected. This is when I would imagine He set the saints free.

Ephesians 4:9-10

James Version (KJV)
9Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Now I am aware that some have a different interpretation of Peter's words here. By accepting the continuity between vs. 18 and 19, the same Holy Spirit who raised Christ from the dead enabled him to preach to the people of Noah's day through Noah himself. While that interpretation fits the context and is acceptable by 20th century standards, it does none the less require some juggling of ones's natural understanding of the original text!!!!

The other interpretaion is to understand that at the resurrection someone "MADE ALIVE" the human spirit of Jesus so that in this form He preached to the spirits who were in Hades and there were many there from Noah's day. The content of the preaching would NOT be the gospel but an anoouncement of victory which Noah had promised and was now manifested in the flesh.

Personally, I do not know but it seems to me that the contxt of Ephesians blends extremly well with that of Peters explination.
 

Webers_Home

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The other interpretaion is to understand that at the resurrection someone "MADE ALIVE" the human spirit of Jesus

There's some insurmountable difficulties with that interpretation. One is that if Christ's spirit died
on the cross; then how was he able to go to paradise that very day with one of the malefactors?

In reality; Christ's spirit couldn't die on the cross because he has eternal life; which is a kind of
life that cannot die.

†. John 5:26 . . As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in
Himself.

In point of fact, Christ not only had eternal life when he walked about Israel; but he had it all
along even before becoming human.

†. 1John 1:2 . .The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you
that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

The koine Greek word for "eternal" is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os) which means: perpetual. In other
words: eternal life is continuous; viz: without either interruption or intermission.

Eternal life is very interesting. The Father had no beginning, nor will He ever have an ending;
viz: from the vanishing point in the past to the vanishing point in the future, the Father has
always been and He will always be; ergo: eternal life is impervious to death.

So then, when Christ's body expired on the cross, his spirit didn't die because eternal
life can't be terminated; otherwise eternal life wouldn't really be eternal; and God himself would
be in constant peril of death.

I recommend we take a critical look for ourselves at the passage in question.

†. 1Pet 3:18-20 . . He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom
also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited
patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

That passage is clearly talking about the Lord's body and about the Holy Spirit rather than the
Lord's human spirit. In other words: within three days after assassins killed the Lord's body;
God's Spirit restored it to life.

†. Rom 1:4 . .Who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God
by his resurrection from the dead

†. Rom 8:11 . . the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead

The same Spirit that restored Christ's body to life was active in Noah's day.

†. Gen 6:3 . .Then the Lord said: My Spirit will not contend with man forever

BTW: just for the sake of argument; let's say Christ's spirit did perish on the cross. What about
his soul? Well, assassins can't kill souls.

†. Mtt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

So then, where did the Lord's soul go upon his demise? Same place where Jonah's soul went:
to haides; aka sheol.

Cliff
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So then, where did the Lord's soul go upon his demise? Same place where Jonah's soul went:
to haides; aka sheol.

To the "Paradise" side of Hades/Sheol.
 

Webers_Home

Inactive
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To the "Paradise" side of Hades/Sheol.

Yes. Classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead; both the good dead and the bad dead. So
then, technically Abraham was in the very same afterlife region as the rich man in the narrative
recorded at Luke 16:19-31 except according to Luke 23:43, Abraham's half of hades is much
nicer.

Cliff
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Yes. Classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead; both the good dead and the bad dead. So
then, technically Abraham was in the very same afterlife region as the rich man in the narrative
recorded at Luke 16:19-31 except according to Luke 23:43, Abraham's half of hades is much
nicer.

Cliff
/

Agreed. They were seperated by a "gulf".

Hades/Sheol = "Torments" side of the region and "Paradise " was actually Abraham's bosom.
 
I believe we need to study these matters in context.
Nkjv Mark 15:33,34.
Jesus cried out asking this question after three hours of (apparently unnatural) darkness had settled on the whole land. The darkness was not, as it were a 'black spotlight' focused on the cross, it was very wide spread. It is after the darkness ended at the ninth hour (3PM), That Jesus asks the Father "WHY" Notice the question is "why have you?" not "did you?" I believe it is significant that Jesus waited for the period of darkness to end to ask this, instead of asking at an earlier stage. It would be natural enough to ask "what happened....who turned out the lights"? when it happened 3 hours earlier. But Jesus sensing His isolation from the father, saved his breath, till He knew He would be heard.

That Hebrews passage seems to recall the words given to Moses as recorded in Deut 31:6.
This was a promise given to the Israelites, to a nation of men who were to go into battle, who had indeed been in many battles. There is a likeness here, to be sure, however the case seems to be different enough to call for caution..

This is a dangerous area of scripture to indulge in speculation though.
I am aware of heresy that has it that Jesus as the Son of God, left Jesus the man to suffer on the cross.......deserting a sinking ship as it were. Let's make sure we don't go down that road!
Remember, Jesus was both the Son of God and the son of Mary. Indivisible; God the Son did not forsake any man, but, I believe He suffered separation from the Father .

In summary, Jesus ask "why have you?" not "Did you?"
He waited for the period of darkness to end...I'm asking "Why?" did he wait.

blessings,
calvin
 

Webers_Home

Inactive
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God says in Hebrews 13:5 ... "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

The koiné Greek word for "forsake" is egkataleipo (eng-kat-al-i'-po) which means to leave
behind in some place; viz: to desert or leave stranded; i.e. maroon.

I think that would apply to parents who discard their unwanted babies in garbage cans and
dumpsters. One year in San Diego, a young mother left her baby in the county's wilds about
maybe seventy miles from town. When she began to feel sick about it; she went back but it was
too late. Her baby was gone.

†. John 14:18 . . I will not abandon you as orphans

But that's exactly what Christ's father did to him.

However, I'm confident the Lord knew all along what to expect on the cross so I'm inclined to
think that his question "Why have you forsaken me" was a leading question rather than an
investigation into the cause of his circumstances. Anyway that's the impression I get from
reading the whole of Psalm 22.

Cliff
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I believe we need to study these matters in context.
Nkjv Mark 15:33,34.
Jesus cried out asking this question after three hours of (apparently unnatural) darkness had settled on the whole land. The darkness was not, as it were a 'black spotlight' focused on the cross, it was very wide spread. It is after the darkness ended at the ninth hour (3PM), That Jesus asks the Father "WHY" Notice the question is "why have you?" not "did you?" I believe it is significant that Jesus waited for the period of darkness to end to ask this, instead of asking at an earlier stage. It would be natural enough to ask "what happened....who turned out the lights"? when it happened 3 hours earlier. But Jesus sensing His isolation from the father, saved his breath, till He knew He would be heard.

That Hebrews passage seems to recall the words given to Moses as recorded in Deut 31:6.
This was a promise given to the Israelites, to a nation of men who were to go into battle, who had indeed been in many battles. There is a likeness here, to be sure, however the case seems to be different enough to call for caution..

This is a dangerous area of scripture to indulge in speculation though.
I am aware of heresy that has it that Jesus as the Son of God, left Jesus the man to suffer on the cross.......deserting a sinking ship as it were. Let's make sure we don't go down that road!
Remember, Jesus was both the Son of God and the son of Mary. Indivisible; God the Son did not forsake any man, but, I believe He suffered separation from the Father .

In summary, Jesus ask "why have you?" not "Did you?"
He waited for the period of darkness to end...I'm asking "Why?" did he wait.

blessings,
calvin

Agreed. CONTEXT is always the only recourse to any question asked.

The DARKNESS which took place at the 6th hour along with the cry from Jesus speak of the harshest and darkest hour of human history. Although the exact meaning of the seperation is and has been argued for years, I believe that we can all agree that it induced the greatest anguish.
 
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The koiné Greek word for "forsake" is egkataleipo (eng-kat-al-i'-po) which means to leave
behind in some place; viz: to desert or leave stranded; i.e. maroon.

I think that would apply to parents who discard their unwanted babies in garbage cans and
dumpsters. One year in San Diego, a young mother left her baby in the county's wilds about
maybe seventy miles from town. When she began to feel sick about it; she went back but it was
too late. Her baby was gone.

†. John 14:18 . . I will not abandon you as orphans

But that's exactly what Christ's father did to him.

However, I'm confident the Lord knew all along what to expect on the cross so I'm inclined to
think that his question "Why have you forsaken me" was a leading question rather than an
investigation into the cause of his circumstances. Anyway that's the impression I get from
reading the whole of Psalm 22.

Cliff
/

Cliff.....I really do not think that the promse of the Holy Spirit coming would apply to the Father turning from Jesus on the cross.
The 1st is a promise of one coming just like Jesus to be a comforter and the 2nd is that the Father was unable to look upon sin and at that time Jesus was the "sin bearer" of humanity.
 
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John 14:18 definitely does not apply like that.

Cliff
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Cliff........

John 14:18
King James Version (KJV)
" I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Yes, the Greek word for "comfortless" is ..........Orphanos , which menas "orphans".

Then to correctly understand what Jesus said we allways need to have CONTEXT applied.

John 13:33 gives us the key..................
King James Version (KJV)
"Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you."

Jesus spoke to His disciples as "little children" and now in John 14:18 He is assuring those little children that they would not be orohaned because He would send another Comforter justr like Himself that they might not be left as sheep without a shepard to be eaten by wild wolves.

IMO this verse has a primary and a secondary meaning here and neither one speaks to your comment of..............
"†. John 14:18 . . I will not abandon you as orphans But that's exactly what Christ's father did to him."

I am of the belief that Jesus was speaking of the time when He came to His disciples after His resurrection and then of the time when He came (visibly) after His ascention at Pentecost. But He was also pointing to the time when He would come in glory to receive the Church as He taught them in verses 2 & 3 of this chapter.

I do not however believe that God "abanfoned" Jesus on the cross and John 14:18 does not apply for that to be the case.

John 1:1-3 tells us that there never was a time when the Word (Son of God) was not a part of the Father so IMHO God could not have "abandoned" Him on cross.

My way of looking at this is that Jesus was suffering at the hand os men in the first 3 hours on the cross. In the first 3 hours He was dying because of sin......in the 2nd 3 hours He was dying FOR the sin of the world. During the time of physical darkness there was also spiritual darkness because God was at work. Sin was doing all it could do to destroy Him, in the 2nd e hours He is making His soul an offering for sin. In those last 3 hours He is paying for the sins of the world and it was during that peroid He was made sin for us, He bacame sin for us. God,
even then was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and could not then look upon the sin Jesus bore for us.
 

Webers_Home

Inactive
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John 1:1-3 tells us that there never was a time when the Word (Son of God) was not a part of the Father so IMHO God could not have "abandoned" Him on cross.

One of the oldest creeds on the books is that Christ is fully God and fully Man. While true that
God cannot abandon God-- He can easily abandon a man. See what I'm saying?

Cliff
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One of the oldest creeds on the books is that Christ is fully God and fully Man. While true that
God cannot abandon God-- He can easily abandon a man. See what I'm saying?

Cliff
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Yes I do. But isn't the creed that Jesus is the God-Man an old creed as well?

If it is true that God cannot abandon God-how then could He abandon the God-Man?

Then think about this. The high cost of atonement of Christ who was accursed of God FOR us as our sinbearer (2 Corth. 5:21 & Gal. 3:13) and He suffered the agony of spiritual death for us. The sense then of being "foresaken" was not nesessarilly caused by God the Father abandoning Him.........but actually looking at Him in WRATH as He would look in judgment at a condemned sinner.
 

Panda

Sr Mod/Webmaster
Staff member
Senior Moderator
I'm going to sneak a minor warning in here as I see a lot of potential for apostasy in this discussion. Just remember that the Statement of Faith for this site affirm the Trinity as well as the Divinity of Christ in that He is fully God and fully Man. For the purposes of this site, violation of those terms would result in an immediate ban.
 
I'm going to sneak a minor warning in here as I see a lot of potential for apostasy in this discussion. Just remember that the Statement of Faith for this site affirm the Trinity as well as the Divinity of Christ in that He is fully God and fully Man. For the purposes of this site, violation of those terms would result in an immediate ban.

ABSOLUTELY AGREED!
 
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Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't even buried in the earth's
soil. No, he was stuck in a rock on the surface of the earth.



Jonah was in two bellies at the same time: the belly of the fish (Jon 2:1) and the belly of sheol
(Jon 2:2). He described the belly of sheol as the roots of the mountains (Jon 2:6). Well, the roots
of the mountains aren't located in a fish's tummy, they're located deep in the earth's interior;
which is why Jonah said that the earth with its bars was closed about him instead of the lips of a
fish's mouth.

But how is it possible for Jonah to be inside the fish while at the same time inside the earth?
Well; the answer is pretty easy if we but simply allow that people exist beyond the demise of
their organic bodies. In other words: while Jonah was dead; his corpse was interred in the fish;
and his soul was interred in the netherworld.

According to Acts 2:25-31 while Christ was dead, he was in two places at once too: in a grave,
and in haides (hades); which is the Greek equivalent of the belly of sheol; which, according to
Mr. Jonah, is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains. Within three days and nights
Christ's soul was re-united with his corpse and he became a whole man again; just as Jonah was.



They say timing is everything. Well; in this case, God's Spirit preached to the spirits in prison in
their day rather than Christ's; viz: while the ark was being built.

†. 1Pet 3:18-20 . . He was put to death in the body but made alive by The Spirit, through whom
also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited
patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

How did God's Spirit preach? With his own voice? No; with Noah's.

†. 2Pet 2:5 . . Noah; a preacher of righteousness

BTW: classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead; both the good dead and the bad dead.
So then, technically Abraham was in the very same afterlife location as the rich man in the
narrative recorded at Luke 16:19-31 only according to Luke 23:43, Abraham's half of hades was
much nicer.

Cliff
/

Cliff, your comment here...........
"Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't even buried in the earth's
soil. No, he was stuck in a rock on the surface of the earth."

Major is not looking for any argument but it seems to me that your comment here is rather pedantic.
It was His grave. It was the PLACE where His body was placed after death.
I do not grasp what the point is you are trying to make here.

Then I must question your other comment of.............
"Jonah was in two bellies at the same time: the belly of the fish (Jon 2:1) and the belly of sheol
(Jon 2:2)."

IMO you have mis-understood the Biblical interretations avalible. Jonah 2:1 certainly describes his position in the belly of the fish. Jonah 2:2 certainly describes his thinking that he was in his grave. Both are true but in fact it is in error to extrapulate that into thinking he was in the fiah and the ground at the same time. It appears to me that you have a differant Biblical agenda in mind.

YES Jonah was in the fish IN the sea. NO he was not in the ground of the earth. Sheol is the Hebrew word used to describe the un-seen world of the dead. "SHEOL" is also often used to describe the "GRAVE".

The "New Scofield Referance Bible" translates Jonah 2:2 as ......... "Out of the belly of SHEOL cried I".
That is the correct Hebrew rendering of this word in this place of Scripture. The correct explination of this verse is that Jonah, out of the belly of the fish WAS HIS GRAVE, and a grave is the place for the dead. You do not place a living person into a grave. So Jonah was NOT inside of the earth but inside of a fish which he said was his grave.

Without a doubt, Jonah believed and recognized that he was going to die inside of that fish and that God would hear him and raise him from the dead.
 
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