Why Is The Spirit So Important For People To Lay Claim To?

[Xian Pugilist]

Wait before you chatter.....

No disagreement that the Spirit of God is key to our everything. But if you have it or not, is something only GOD knows for sure. Why do people come up with so many EXTREME methods of claiming/proving they have the Spirit?

I'm thinking if the Spirit is involved in your life, you will be too busy to sit there and ponder the greatness of the Spirit in your life.

And I guess the follow up question is, how would you prove the Spirit is present and not one of those false spirits leading you astray, such as legion, or others.

 

[covered_by_grace]

I don't "have" the Spirit, rather The Spirit has me! By His Grace, I rest in the fact that He said He is with me and that's good enough for me. No proof needed for me. Tongues, not needed. Evidence of supernatural healing ability, not needed. Nothing needed. John 4:48

Who am I to demand God prove anything to me?! He said it; good enough for me! God doesn't need for me to prove that I have His Spirit working in me, nor does He need to prove to me that I have His Spirit. In fact, He has already done enough for me. He died on the Cross for me. I take Him at His Word.

Ephesians 2:8-10

By Grace.
Through Faith.
For Works.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

So, if I have faith in you, my laundry gets done?

EXCELLENT!!!!!!

I liked your post.

 

[covered_by_grace]

Try again....

And, thank you.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Try again....

And, thank you.

YOU SAID BY GRACE! NOW you are backing out.

 

[covered_by_grace]

LOL, nice try though! Not that I don't have the desire, mind you, however, I haven't acquired the abilities from Him, yet, to do long-distance laundry. But, IF I do, you'll be the first to know.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Awwwwww......

 

[Kevin]

Wait before you chatter.....

No disagreement that the Spirit of God is key to our everything. But if you have it or not, is something only GOD knows for sure. Why do people come up with so many EXTREME methods of claiming/proving they have the Spirit?

I'm thinking if the Spirit is involved in your life, you will be too busy to sit there and ponder the greatness of the Spirit in your life.

And I guess the follow up question is, how would you prove the Spirit is present and not one of those false spirits leading you astray, such as legion, or others.

Easy answer - the evidence of the Holy Spirit in ones life is not just the display of the "Spiritual" gifts but the actual manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit in a persons life. IMO the Spiritual gifts (with the exception of one) are meant to empower ministry. The fruits of the Spirit are as a result of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives.

Mat 7:15
Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16
You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19
Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20
Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23
meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24
But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26
Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.
As Christians - through the work of the Holy Spirit we become sanctified and start to show more and more of the fruits of the Spirit which is contrary to human nature.
People often quote scripture and pretend to be Christian but even Satan quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus - the evidence is in the fruit.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Ok, I agree with most of what you say. But..... work with me here.

Anyone can claim those gifts, and or act the part to convince people they have them. That doesn't prove anything. On this site alone, you have a couple of VERY angry personalities that go out of their way to posture, and present a facade of holiness so we will accept them. Any fool can fake speaking in tongues, but why do so many fake it just to claim..... I got the Spirit.

I believe its much more important to be there than it s for people to see you claiming to be there. So my question is really more pointed at those that feel its important to convince another man with words that they are spirit bound....

 

[Kevin]

I feel it is a question of pride - check out the state of the Corinthian church, hence Paul's letter to rectify the problems.

It is also a question of wanting to be accepted. There are many churches out there that insist that one has to speak in tongues to show they have recieved the Holy Spirit so people simply comply by faking it so they fit in. This is where experience has overiden the true value of speaking in tongues, which is for self edification to be used in private unless an interpreter is present. Tongue's according to Paul is actually the least of the gifts.

In terms of the fruit, people can fake it to a point and then their true nature will come through. This does not mean that because a Christian gets angry they are not filled with the Spirit - all of us sin. A Spirit filled Christian who gets angry, will be convicted to repent. We can all put on disguises but eventually they will be exposed. People can get to know scripture very well but without love it becomes a very dangerous thing. Knowledge without love puffs up but love edifies. People who bring division, arguments, hurt and offense through knowledge are probably false but people who edify through knowledge in love are probably real Christians. When we bring edification to people (I do not mean encouragement but edification) through scripture then we are practising the gifts of the Holy Spirit in love and bringing forth good fruit.


When we become Christian, the Holy Spirit starts to work in us - doesnt matter if we have had an infilling or maybe three or four. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for a number of very good reasons and one is to bring us to a knowledge of the truth and to be sanctified. If a Christian does not, in their own lives, see a change towards Godliness over time then they should seriously consider if they actually have given their lives to Jesus in the first place. Christians should start loving each other as Jesus commanded - we should delight in the edification of others. This does not mean we always tell them what they want to hear but what they need to hear in love.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Good observations. I have some follow up below. We are in the same pie at least, if not neighboring pieces of the pie.

...faking it so they fit in.

I think there are more that fake it, but don't know they fake it, for the same reason. So convinced that it's true, they believe their own act. I've seen them. I can't and won't say it's everyone....

This is where experience has overiden the true value of speaking in tongues, which is for self edification to be used in private unless an interpreter is present.

While I know where the interpreter part comes from, the self edification, speaking in tongues, I can't place that in scripture, how you use it. Can you help me out there with where you get that thought?

Tongue's according to Paul is actually the least of the gifts.

YES! And further, I know of no place that it teaches you MUST have one of those gifts, tongues, etc.... to be with the Spirit.... As I see it, you can have none and still be spirit filled, although you'd benefit of the galatians 5 results of the Spirit.

In terms of the fruit, people can fake it to a point and then their true nature will come through. This does not mean that because a Christian gets angry they are not filled with the Spirit - all of us sin. A Spirit filled Christian who gets angry, will be convicted to repent.

While you may be more prone to sin when in anger, being angry isn't a sin.???

We can all put on disguises but eventually they will be exposed. People can get to know scripture very well but without love it becomes a very dangerous thing. Knowledge without love puffs up but love edifies. People who bring division, arguments, hurt and offense through knowledge are probably false but people who edify through knowledge in love are probably real Christians. When we bring edification to people (I do not mean encouragement but edification) through scripture then we are practising the gifts of the Holy Spirit in love and bringing forth good fruit.

I'm worried that you think LOVE is bringing scripture to someone. That's a small dent in the big pail of Agapao as best I can tell. And isn't even a necessary one.

When we become Christian, the Holy Spirit starts to work in us -

My understanding would be more, ON us, vs IN us. However I guess you could be filled, gradually.... but once filled always filled.....

doesnt matter if we have had an infilling or maybe three or four. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for a number of very good reasons and one is to bring us to a knowledge of the truth and to be sanctified.

You don't put the knowledge and sanctification together as the same thing, right?

If a Christian does not, in their own lives, see a change towards Godliness over time then they should seriously consider if they actually have given their lives to Jesus in the first place. Christians should start loving each other as Jesus commanded - we should delight in the edification of others. This does not mean we always tell them what they want to hear but what they need to hear in love.

The problem I see here is, people try to ACT Xian. They try to control their thoughts, and more emphasis is put on controlling the bad parts of self, that self is never changed, just harnessed. God wants to change you. God doesn't expect you to control you.

 

[Kevin]

Good observations. I have some follow up below. We are in the same pie at least, if not neighboring pieces of the pie.

As long as that Pie is to serve Christ and lead people to Christ, then we may be in the same pie.

I think there are more that fake it, but don't know they fake it, for the same reason. So convinced that it's true, they believe their own act. I've seen them. I can't and won't say it's everyone....

Not for us to judge.

While I know where the interpreter part comes from, the self edification, speaking in tongues, I can't place that in scripture, how you use it. Can you help me out there with where you get that thought?

1Co 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.
1Co 14:3
But he who prophesies speaks to men for building up, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4
The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a church.

YES! And further, I know of no place that it teaches you MUST have one of those gifts, tongues, etc.... to be with the Spirit.... As I see it, you can have none and still be spirit filled, although you'd benefit of the galatians 5 results of the Spirit.

1Co 12:30
Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31
But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
We should desire the gifts - they empower us for ministry. The gifts are given to us for the benefit of others.

We should also take note the gifts mentioned in Corinthians and Galations is not an exhaustive list. Nowhere does Paul say these are all the gifts.

While you may be more prone to sin when in anger, being angry isn't a sin.???


Mat_5:22









But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown
into the fire of hell.


Eph_4:26










Be angry, and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down upon your wrath,
We have to be careful with anger it is often the root of terrible sin.
I dont think this is the thread to debate what is righteous anger and what is sinful anger, but we are commanded as Christians to love one another - the opposite of anger.

I'm worried that you think LOVE is bringing scripture to someone. That's a small dent in the big pail of Agapao as best I can tell. And isn't even a necessary one.

Bringing scripture to someone is an act of love - there are many other ways to love somebody. Bringing scripture which can change their lives for the better can be an act of love or done in love.

My understanding would be more, ON us, vs IN us. However I guess you could be filled, gradually.... but once filled always filled.....

"ON" vs "IN" = symantics. As long as the Holy Spirit is working in us, it does not really matter what terminology we use. Scripture seems to tell us that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a continous process. Havnt got the time now to get the scripture but it is worth the study.

You don't put the knowledge and sanctification together as the same thing, right?

No. Knowledge is something we aquire through study or revelation of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the process of changing us into the image of Christ.

The problem I see here is, people try to ACT Xian. They try to control their thoughts, and more emphasis is put on controlling the bad parts of self, that self is never changed, just harnessed. God wants to change you. God doesn't expect you to control you.

Quite right, as Christians we cannot change ourselves but we do play a part in it. For example if God's word says stay away from prostitutes and I keep going - what is going to consume my thoughts? If I obey God's word to the best of my ability and be sensitive to the correction of the Holy Spirit then I will overcome the strongholds in my life.

BTW. I have never gone to a prostitute - Just an example

 

[Xian Pugilist]

As long as that Pie is to serve Christ and lead people to Christ, then we may be in the same pie.

Not for me to say. I may think I am and not be. I can't bother myself with that, I can only run the race and be willing to be corrected.

Not for us to judge.

Those outside the church aren't for us to judge, 1 cor 5 or 2 cor 5. Those inside the Church not only are you to judge but share the judgement so you both may learn. Examples to elders in the pastoral letters, example of Paul to Peter, example of Matt 18 if one sins against you go to them.... Scripture is used to teach and rebuke, all of those require some judgement. Judging isn't bad. Being convinced your judgement is as God's is, and not willing to budge is wrong.

1Co 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For

Ok, gotcha. That's just one type of tongues speaking. That's what threw me, we know it's just one of the several types by the phrase, "For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries. " This is a tongue that isn't voiced by the mouth of man, but is the Spirit uttering inside of you, praying/talking to God for your needs. If someone is speaking out loud, claiming this is what they are doing, they are just not right.

We should also take note the gifts mentioned in Corinthians and Galations is not an exhaustive list. Nowhere does Paul say these are all the gifts.

I agree with this statement. I claim the gift of Agitation, which is partially tongue in cheek, but also dead on a gift, if not by my title for it. However I said I see no place that you are required to have a gift to be filled by the Spirit. The verse you offered showed you should desire one, maybe even seek one, but not that if you don't have one you aren't filled with the Spirit. And GIFTS/FRUITS are not the same thing. I think we'll agree on that, right?

Mat_5:22

In context, it's only a sin if it's left as angry and not reconciled. If Angry is a sin, then Jesus is not the Christ as He sinned numerous times, and sinning and being the messiah are contraindicative.

The Eph verse says the same with, "Be angry, and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down upon your wrath," it's keeping the anger that is the sin. Or, NOT FORGIVING, you must forgive to be forgiven, yes?

Bringing scripture to someone is an act of love - there are many other ways to love somebody. Bringing scripture which can change their lives for the better can be an act of love or done in love.

Good we are dead on the same page then. ALthough I'd say the more important part of love is exemplified in the last parable in matt 25.

"ON" vs "IN" = symantics. As long as the Holy Spirit is working in us, it does not really matter what terminology we use.

If I pour medicine ON you, rather than have you consume it and get it IN you, the effects are very different. It's much more than symantics. If the Spirit is INDWELLING YOU, the SINFUL NATURE/FLESH/SARX is gone, absent, no longer there. The Spirit works ON YOU, to get you to the point where He is INDWELLING you. Romans 8:9 is Him in you. Gal 5:18 is Him ON you, leading you from the outside.... People insist they are indwelled by the SPirit because their preacher told them they were, but also insist they are still in the flesh and will be until they die, despite what scripture says. People tend to just want ot claim every good thought in hopes it's right, rather than take the time and focus the energy to get it right. This is not a condemnation of you, just in big generalities.

No. Knowledge is something we aquire through study or revelation of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the process of changing us into the image of Christ.

Excellent. We are in the same boat there too.

Quite right, as Christians we cannot change ourselves but we do play a part in it.

YES, Synergism, vs Monergism. Who parted the red sea, Noah? Moses? or God?

BTW. I have never gone to a prostitute - Just an example

There is a huge difference though, in a person who stops going to appease the commands, and a changed person who has no desire to go. Heart of stone to flesh, changed heart, and mind, not just forced obedience. See my point?

 

[Abba's child]

Please forgive me if I am speaking out of turn, or not properly addressing the issue...but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not something I need to "prove". The Word says it is so; therefore...it is so! (Romans 8:9, just one of many examples)
And maybe it's just me, but I have often found that I must begin with obedience. Being changed, taking on the mind of Christ, being conformed to His image will take my whole lifetime, and will not be perfectly (i.e., completely) done till I see Him as He is. (1 John 3:2) I do not try to appease commands; I try to love the Lord. (Matthew 22:37)
So, because I am yet in this corruptible body with the nature that goes with is, I often find obedience stands me in good stead. From there, our Savior graciously, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in me, makes another change in me that causes a change in what I desire from the natural to the Spiritual. From "me" to Him!
I have probably not explained this well, but I hope (biblically hope, not that weak "wish-y" hope ) someone else can do better?
Blessings to you!- ellie
ps- I believe the scriptures show that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Holy Spirit are different. My apologies if I've spoken of the wrong type. The indewlling comes permanently immediately when we agree with God and are saved. The filling needs...obedience.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

A. C. How could you speak out of turn when you haven't yet had a turn, or when you respond to an open to all question? And you certainly should NOT be concerned with disagreeing with me, that's how I can learn.... so I wont mind.

But, I am pretty sure you miss the statement in Rom 8:9, but maybe I miss it, so here is my disagreement...

It says you are not in the flesh anymore if you are indwelled by the spirit. Nothing you can do can prove that. And if you are indwelled the flesh is gone, you were already poor in spirit, depend on Him and wouldn't care to prove it...

The flesh is either gone, or it isn't. If it isn't, if it is still there to make you sin, you aren't yet indwelled by the Spirit. Nothing you can do will prove it. It either is, or it isn't.

There is no action you can do to "make" the spirit indwell you. No amount or set of rules you can obey that will "put" Him there if He isn't. While rom 8:9 is certainly a proving if the Spirit indwells you verse, it is also not one you can manipulate, even by obedience.

 

[Abba's child]

Hmm...I was taught this means "controlled, or influenced by" flesh or Spirit. I'll take some time to look into that, though! I do agree with you that I cannot compel the Spirit's indwelling. It simply accompanies salvation. Off to biblos.com for some clarification on that verse in Romans! (and I'll try to ask my husband, too. our kiddos call him "the walking concordance". lol)

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Oh, it does mean a control thing. But you can't Prove it as an action you commit, which was the point above. It either is or it isn't. Nothing you can do makes Him indwell on call. So as an answer to why we feel we must prove, and your answer was rom 8:9, Idont see how WE can prove it that way. Although we seem to agree it would be proof.

 

[xino]

when Jesus comes into our life, the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
but receiving the Holy Spirit as a Power means a gift, there are 9 gifts.

i know I don't have prophesying, healing, miracles, spirit to spirit, speaking in tongues or understanding tongues.

I either have faith, wisdom or understanding. But it is still hard to tell.
the only way to tell if you have a gift is if someone who has spirit of distinguish to help identify if we do have the gift or not

 

[Howard Pettyjohn]

Why is the Spirit so important for people to lay claim to ? Well, who is this Holy Spirit ? It is the Spirit of God. What do we know about the Holy Spirits tasks ? He is the one who transforms believers and enables the living of a holy life. Romans 7 and 8 can be a help. The Spirit is a separate and distinct person within the Godhead. In the OT the Spirit is an agent of creation and temporarily empowered certain individuals for certain tasks. In the New Testament the Spirit indwells believers and produces holiness by transforming believers from within. While we focus on Christ the Spirit is an active agent in our lives. Helps us to grow in a Christ likeness.
It is not easy to make sense about the Spirit in my life and I'm sure I'm not alone. As a baby Christian I didn't figure out what was happening. These thoughts came to me from out of the blue, as some say. They were right and I needed that information or thought. If I start telling details most figure it was circumstantial, or I'm nuts.
Try it you'll like it and You can do this at home.
I mean really...God knows everything and we think we do too but God sent the Spirit just in case.

 

[athousandhoursdeep]

I was just wondering about something xino said. I understand what prophesying and healing mean. What is the "spirit to spirit" gift you are speaking of?