William Lane Craig Is Better Off Citing Matt 13:10-15

[KingJ]

Again, I must emphasize that there is nothing unchristian about accepting science as truth.

No Christian should be against science. Have you read the counter arguments to evolution? Lets focus on human evolution, all the other stuff just blurs the bottom line...as is typical of the devil. Firstly use Christians common sense and re-read Genesis. At which stage did God consider monkeys accountable for sin / intelligent? Adams brother was a monkey? Adams parents were monkeys? Are the monkeys in the zoo oneday going to be accountable for sin?

This is the Anti-Science sentiment that's causing so many to leave the Church. When everybody knows 2+2=4 and you're telling them 2+2=5, seekers & believer begin to leave citing irreconcilable differences with the faith.

Evolution is far from fact though....

No, But I do know that I have a higher morality than the writers of the scriptures condoning & sanctioning slavery & genocide etc. etc. These writers were obviously not divinely inspired by God or Revelation. The Bible is a human document that was manipulated overtime by "the powers that be", but the naked truth of the Gospel still ring true despite mans attempt to adulterate it.

Please state actual examples. If you look closer at the Egyptians for example...God sent plagues at increasing levels of severity first. We are more then welcome to judge God!!!!!! But for the love of God PLEASE you and your friend do it PROPERLY!!!! Christians or no Christian...we really do need to look at ALL the freaking facts!!!! This really is NOT rocket science.

I think this thread will move forward better if you state actual examples that you are battling with / judging God as bad on. Remember the prophets in the OT were not mentally handicapped. They saw and were directly affected by God's wrath, yet they judged Him as good!!!

Judging 101 = Look at all the facts!
Christianity 101 = Have and actual / real spiritual revelation of Jesus. James 4:8 leading to John 10:27 is inevitable!
Satan / atheism 101 = Quote half truths.
Living in sin 101 = justify yourself by quoting half truths and entertain any God / bible bashing dogma of the day. Because Jesus / bible bring conviction of sin.

 

[aha]

Again, I must emphasize that there is nothing unchristian about accepting science as truth.

I respect your respecting of them, but that is not the issue i raised.

Now, Science truth is different from Philosophical speculation.
One example is the one mentioned on bacteria evolution.
It is a Science truth/premise, but the conclusion is a philosophical speculation, and faulty as mentioned.

Regarding the Catholic Church view on it:
I read a link below: it seems if it was an issue of "evolution" vs "constancy" it is fine with the Church.

It will become an issue if it a question of "origin of life"

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm

 

[KingJ]

I just had a flashback to a long debate I had on the Richard Dawkins site. The one guy raised about 20 examples of God's terrible / cruel wrath. I went and found God's reasons for every one of them. What I recall clearly! is seeing that God always warned first .

Death is inevitable. We will all die. Heading God's warnings extends our life time.

Jeremiah, don't forget Jonah 4:2. I think I quoted that a million times on the atheist sites .

I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

 

[KingJ]

I don't know of a single atheist argument against religion that does not have holes in it......

Prove your God exists....look at your thumb until the obviousness of intelligent design slaps you in the face.
The bible is inerrant.....God wrote the ten commandments!!!! Prophecies tie up. Jesus never said the pharisees teaching and living by the OT were holding onto tripe. Jesus's record was validated by every gospel except Judas's. Jesus and Paul effected history in a way nobody can ignore.
God is evil.....if you bypass 90% of scripture and the cross, only reading the ending it would look that way, yes.
OT laws are dumb....the panel of well educated and respected elders to accompany the judgement and passing of laws were dumb?
OT laws are irrelevant...God wasted His time speaking to Moses?
There is no record that the Jews were held captive.....The Jews landed up in Israel surrounded by enemies by co-incidence?
The arc was impractical / could not fit all the animals....you assume Noah was dumb? High IQ living for many years....definitely way smarter then any of us. Big arc, eggs and babies. Size would only need to be increased if any humans decided to join him, which was never likely.
Just because you don't know how you were created, you assume its your God....No assumption, rather statement of fact from looking at the one available option. No particle in a particle collider = ??

Discussion with atheists never end with them agreeing. They are constantly in a state of dodging / manipulation / obfuscation. Rom 1:20 ''all are without excuse'' says it best and as Christians this fact needs to sink in before we waste too much time and effort with them!!!! Wickedness and rebellion against God starts in the heart, not the head.

 

[Jeremiah7:29]

I think this thread will move forward better if you state actual examples that you are battling with / judging God as bad on. Remember the prophets in the OT were not mentally handicapped. They saw and were directly affected by God's wrath, yet they judged Him as good!!!

.

I tried presenting all the scriptures in a previous post but as you can see, the moderator deleted them. I was very disappointed

 

[RiverJordan]

I prefer your Apologetic response to mine and would like to thank you for your insight. This was the purpose of starting this thread. To get help with the tough questions that weren't getting answered by today's leading Christian Apologists.

Aw, thanks!

It's too bad that fundamentalist Christians pit the faith against reality. I know their hearts are in the right place, but that doesn't justify some of what they demand be deal-breakers for someone to be a Christian.

Look through this thread and you'll see Christians denying reality, justifying genocide, justifying slavery, and justifying sexual slavery. It's no wonder a lot of people have figured that if that's what they have to believe to be a Christian, they'll just go somewhere else.

Everyone here has really helped me undergo a paradigm shift in my Faith and I'm realizing now that I have to come to my Pastor and tell him I no longer share the same beliefs of the Bible that my church holds. I'm going to schedule an appointment with a priest to see if my beliefs in Christ & the Bible are more compatible with the Catholic Church.

Good luck! All I can say is, just be as open and honest as you can, and hopefully your Pastor will understand. If you're interested, I can share an experience I had with a conservative Pastor on issues similar to this.

Please continue your thoughts and insights if you feel you can better assist me in my interpretation of scripture, understanding Jesus or finding a new church home.

Those are extremely personal issues, so you should probably pray on this and go where the spirit guides you. But I'll always be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences.

 

[KingJ]

Look through this thread and you'll see Christians denying reality, justifying genocide, justifying slavery, and justifying sexual slavery. It's no wonder a lot of people have figured that if that's what they have to believe to be a Christian, they'll just go somewhere else.

You still have a lot to learn. You don't realize that if you remain ignorant and not face reality of scripture / deal with the OT / acknowledge that God of the OT is the SAME as the God of the NT, you are setting yourself up for a fall. Jeremiah is in that predicament with his friend. You both (no offence) really do need to study harder. Not just accept the tripe the world dishes out with a ''science'' stamp on it . You say you have studied, then please prove it or accept that you only have an opinion / theory / assumptions based largely off carnal / God bashing propaganda.

1. I challenge you to show me where you see slavery of the 16-19th century African type in scripture. 2. I challenge you to show me where you think a sane judge would judge God of being guilty of evil in the OT or NT. 3. Sexual slavery? Please show me the scripture that supports your terrible assumption.

 

[Jeremiah7:29]

1. I challenge you to show me where you see slavery of the 16-19th century African type in scripture.

2. I challenge you to show me where you think a sane judge would judge God of being guilty of evil in the OT or NT.

3. Sexual slavery? Please show me the scripture that supports your terrible assumption.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks Jeremiah. Lol, they come with pics. Atheist site? We now have a platform from which to discuss. Before I discuss these, would you mind giving your honest judgement / view of each. Or is there no need as you just take those scriptures ''as is''. Plus, anything else you want to get off your chest?

 

[Jeremiah7:29]

Thanks Jeremiah. Lol, they come with pics. Atheist site?

I'm not an Atheist! I made them specifically to illustrate my response to your request.

Christian apologists who defend these man made scriptures are guilty of idol worship. This is what I'm trying to get at with Jesus using the parables of scripture to separate the Goat from the Sheep.

God is a spirit & those that worship him worship him in spirit & in truth.

Jesus is the focus of my praise & I accept that the bible has been adulterated by spiritual wickedness in high places.

Are you an Atheist because you don't believe in the inerrancy of the Koran?

I choose the love of Christ over the manipulation of man & I thank God for giving me that spirit of discernment. You can believe in the errancy of the Bible & still be a Christian

I pray he does the same for you

 

[KingJ]

You are skimming. I did not say you were an atheist.

I just want to hear you try defend God. Who in their right mind will serve a God they judge as evil? If we can't defend or judge God of the bible as good, why serve Him? John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me (OT). John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is another thread on the inerrancy of the bible. I don't want to repeat comments here. I urge you to use some common sense. The bible is either the word of God that points to Jesus and was with Him in the beginning, or it is not.

When I get a free moment I will address those examples.

 

[Jeremiah7:29]

You are skimming. I did not say you were an atheist.

I just want to hear you try defend God. Who in their right mind will serve a God they judge as evil? If we can't defend or judge God of the bible as good, why serve Him? John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me (OT). John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is another thread on the inerrancy of the bible. I don't want to repeat comments here. I urge you to just try use some common sense. The bible is either the word of God that points to Jesus and was with Him in the beginning, or it i

When I get a free moment I will address those examples.

John was written around 100 AD, was the last Gospel to be written & cited as the most sensational & adulterated accounts of Jesus.

I don't want to get into a debate about biblical inerrancy either. This is a debate about biblical inerrancy as ineffective apologetics

 

[LysanderShapiro]

How does one claim to know and love God, claim to be a Christian and follow Him, and then say they don't believe in the God-breathed truth?

We've had discussions in here in the past regarding Sola Scriptura. Some here believe that the Bible is the exclusive inerrant source of Christian doctrine and some believe Christian doctrine extends out to the Church...As a Catholic, I hold to the latter. But what we agreed on was that the Bible is indeed God-breathed and inerrant, and it stems from our knowledge in God's existence and our constant faith.

By no means am I trying to put you on the spot, but you are in a Christian forum making some pretty interesting claims -- expect some questioning.

It's very important to not only read the scriptures, but study every bit of it and its context. Slavery was part of the culture and economic fabric of Biblical times. Nowhere does the Bible say that slavery is a good thing. It was merely tolerated by Biblical writers. When St. Paul said that Christian slaves were God's free men, and Christian slave owners were really God's slaves and brothers to their Christian slaves, this was revolutionary to people who had been used to thinking of slaves as non-human things.

Through poverty, the Israelites sometimes sold themselves or their children; magistrates sold some persons for their crimes, and creditors were in some cases allowed to sell their debtors who could not pay. But "man-stealing," the object of which is to force another into slavery, is ranked in the New Testament with the greatest crimes.

Just like how you don't take Genesis to literal translations because you are welcoming the Augustinian idea that the days needn't be taken literally (and I'm not against this notion), it's not for the sake of picking and choosing what we like and what we don't like.

 

[no_one]

KingJ, thanks for your comments. Sometimes I do feel like I’m the only Christian in the world. That is, a YEC, a Christian sticking to God’s Word, instead of man’s word. For indeed many stick to man’s words…

 

[no_one]

Look through this thread and you'll see Christians denying reality, justifying genocide, justifying slavery, and justifying sexual slavery.

I thought you claimed you are a Christian…

 

[no_one]

Jeremiah7:29, you didn’t answer my question: do you really believe that you’re morally superior to your Creator?

I choose the love of Christ over the manipulation of man & I thank God for giving me that spirit of discernment.

I find that truly ironic, since you actually believe in man-made theories (evolution), instead of the Bible…

 

[no_one]

How does one claim to know and love God, claim to be a Christian and follow Him, and then say they don't believe in the God-breathed truth?

Well, it took you long enough, but you finally made it. Congrats for finally standing up for your (and my) God. The real God, the Biblical God.

Just like how you don't take Genesis to literal translations because you are welcoming the Augustinian idea that the days needn't be taken literally (and I'm not against this notion), it's not for the sake of picking and choosing what we like and what we don't like.

Just when I started to see you as a fighter for the Truth, you somehow managed to ruin that all…

And yes, liberally interpreting Genesis to fit human theories (worse: atheistic theories) is exactly that: “picking and choosing what we like and what we don't like”.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Well, it took you long enough, but you finally made it. Congrats for finally standing up for your (and my) God. The real God, the Biblical God.

Thank you. That's why I'm here after all. I will never not defend the truth.

Just when I started to see you as a fighter for the Truth, you somehow managed to ruin that all…

And yes, liberally interpreting Genesis to fit human theories (worse: atheistic theories) is exactly that: “picking and choosing what we like and what we don't like”.

No, not at all. The positions that Genesis could be perceived not so literally pre-dates later Atheistic theories since around the 4th century. I'm not claiming it to be a matter of fact, but I do think there is merit to what the doctors of the early church proposed.

Don't take this as picking and choosing. I think we've discussed this in past forums actually.

Perhaps we can continue to defend the faith as brothers.

 

[KingJ]

Exodus 21:20-21

Regarding this verse you quoted, please read from verse 12.

12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. 13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death. 15 “Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death. 16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. 17 “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. 18 “If people quarrel and one person hits another with a stone or with their fist and the victim does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held liable if the other can get up and walk around outside with a staff; however, the guilty party must pay the injured person for any loss of time and see that the victim is completely healed. 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. 22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. 26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

Things to note... The punishment for murder is death (vs 12). Verse 18 & 19 to the Jews says exactly the same as vs 20. Punishment in vs 20 that the owner of the slave escapes is death!

Other verses conveniently ignored are: Deut 23:15 You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. Exodus 21:1-6 Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free. Lev 22:11 But if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it, and anyone born in his house may eat of his food Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord

 

[Jeremiah7:29]

Jeremiah7:29, you didn’t answer my question: do you really believe that you’re morally superior to your Creator?

I did.

No, But I do know that I have a higher morality than the writers of the scriptures condoning & sanctioning slavery & genocide etc. etc. These writers were obviously not divinely inspired by God or Revelation. The Bible is a human document that was manipulated overtime by "the powers that be", but the naked truth of the Gospel still ring true despite mans attempt to adulterate it.