Pre-trib Or Post?
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
This is a well discussed topic and ample Scripture has been provided to support both sides.
It wasn't decided before, and will not be decided now.
I suggest you search for threads on the subject.
It wasn't decided before, and will not be decided now.
I suggest you search for threads on the subject.
One thing is for sure; Jesus can't possibly come back too soon....
All in the LORD's time-He owns it.
All in the LORD's time-He owns it.
Answer: people have a free-will; which lends to creating personal opinions; which has a tendency to be influenced by our 'vain imaginations'.
Take the Word for what He says and you will be just fine.
Well, if I take the Word for what it says, which is it?
In my opinion:
I used to be a 'pre-trib' believer; I am no longer of that mentality. I am more of a 'mid' to 'post-trib' believer now (if I had to label myself). But I can easily see how "pre-trib" could also be correct. Quite frankly, a lot of useless wrangling of words and much wasted time has occurred over this issue.
Example: the 'catching away' of the believers which has been manufactured into the term "rapture" is a very touchy subject for most. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but the principle of being 'called up' or God 'catching away' / snatching up His people is.
I used to be a 'pre-trib' believer; I am no longer of that mentality. I am more of a 'mid' to 'post-trib' believer now (if I had to label myself). But I can easily see how "pre-trib" could also be correct. Quite frankly, a lot of useless wrangling of words and much wasted time has occurred over this issue.
Example: the 'catching away' of the believers which has been manufactured into the term "rapture" is a very touchy subject for most. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but the principle of being 'called up' or God 'catching away' / snatching up His people is.
The #1 problem I have with 'pre-trib' is that it is like you say: "I like the idea" of it; It doesn't pass the 'flesh test'.
Also-the Church as ALWAYS been in tribulation since the beginning....
There is no promise that everything will be sunshine and roses for believers- there is no 'get out of trials and tribulations' free card.
The way I read it-those who maintain their faith unto the end-the moment Christ literally returns-those will be the ones "caught up"; but that doesn't mean they won't be in prisons, being tortured, or at the brink of execution when He comes.
Also-the Church as ALWAYS been in tribulation since the beginning....
There is no promise that everything will be sunshine and roses for believers- there is no 'get out of trials and tribulations' free card.
The way I read it-those who maintain their faith unto the end-the moment Christ literally returns-those will be the ones "caught up"; but that doesn't mean they won't be in prisons, being tortured, or at the brink of execution when He comes.
Personally, I think the the pre-trib view seems to make the most sense. I have always been pre-millennial and a pre-trib rapture is the only way I can make sense of Isaiah 65:20.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
That verse, if taken literally, is clearly referring to a future time, that is, the Millennium. Now, if all believers are changed into a spiritual body at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, then that will not leave any flesh beings to go into the Millennial Kingdom. Clearly flesh beings will be in the Millennial Kingdom if people are still dying (for the young man shall die a hundred years old). A pre-trib rapture solves this dilemma. If believers are changed into spiritual bodies at the rapture before the tribulation, then after the tribulation when Jesus returns, those who were saved during the tribulation will enter into the Millennial Kingdom in their flesh bodies.
And while it is true that the Church has always endured tribulation from the enemy, the wrath that is coming is going to be poured out by God, and I just dont see how the Church fits into that.
There are more reasons than just this to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I dont believe its an issue that should cause division among Christians though.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
That verse, if taken literally, is clearly referring to a future time, that is, the Millennium. Now, if all believers are changed into a spiritual body at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, then that will not leave any flesh beings to go into the Millennial Kingdom. Clearly flesh beings will be in the Millennial Kingdom if people are still dying (for the young man shall die a hundred years old). A pre-trib rapture solves this dilemma. If believers are changed into spiritual bodies at the rapture before the tribulation, then after the tribulation when Jesus returns, those who were saved during the tribulation will enter into the Millennial Kingdom in their flesh bodies.
And while it is true that the Church has always endured tribulation from the enemy, the wrath that is coming is going to be poured out by God, and I just dont see how the Church fits into that.
There are more reasons than just this to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I dont believe its an issue that should cause division among Christians though.
I am attending a church that teaches post-millennialism and our pastor uses the fulfillment of OT prophecy to show how Jesus is reigning now as King-- I used to believe in pre-trib eschatology but this makes more sense as a whole to me. I think people make a lot of assumptions about what they think Gods word is saying about what is to come. I'm not sure what is true tho--- I continue to study my Bible and put my trust in Jesus-- his will will be accomplished regardless of what's to come!!
What do you all think of hank hanegraff ? He also holds this type of view on eschatology and I've always felt he spoke truth.
What do you all think of hank hanegraff ? He also holds this type of view on eschatology and I've always felt he spoke truth.
Post-Millennialism teaches that everything is getting better. I think just looking around us in this world makes it self-evident that everything is getting worse. More Christians have been martyred in the 20th century than in all of history combined.
Hank Hanegraaff's views on Revelation depend on the idea that it was written before 70 AD. The general consensus among scholars is that Revelation was written after 70 AD and I think the evidence for that is much weightier.
But these are things people will continue to disagree on till Jesus returns.
Thank you for the info. I continue to pray and seek Gods will in this area. I've learned that as long as my eyes are focused on Him then all will be ok. It is curious how people can have such radically different views of end times
scripture seems to support mid-trib ..
Mat 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
if you look at the chronology, you will see that the 7 bowls/vials are right after the 7th/last trumpet ..
Rev 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
the antiChrist enters at this point ..
Rev 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
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as to pre-trib .. that is biblical semantics, as the real trib does not take place until the mid point (he saves us from that last hour) the first half of the trib is "hard times" but the last half is "wrath/judgement" upon the earth ..
the 7 bowls/vials of wrath/judgement to come upon the earth are enumerated in Rev chap 16 ..
note: effects are given, and I added my theories of the cause in parenthesis ..
Vial 1 - Rev 16:2 - sores on those who received the mark of the beast ..
(cancer from mark ?)
Vial 2 - Rev 16:3 - 1/3 of sea becomes red and stale, 1/3 aquatic life dies ..
(red algae ?)
Vial 3 - Rev 16:4-7 - 1/3 of rivers becomes red and stale, 1/3 aquatic life dies ..
(red algae ?)
Vial 4 - Rev 16:8-9 - sun intensifies and scorches people ..
(Jupiter, which is not a true planet but a gas giant ignites into a sun ?)
Vial 5 - Rev 16:10-11 - darkness over Jerusalem where is throne is (Jer 52:32, Mar 13:14, 2Th 2:4, Rev 2:13) ..
(whatever causes the darkness also gives pain .. tongue is a keyword here, perhaps an immense amount of dust in the air, like a miniature "nuclear winter" ?)
Vial 6 - Rev 16:12 - a geat draught, in the area dries up the Euphrates river so Asian ground forces can come ..
(perhaps caused by the immense heat of the 4th bowl/vial)
Spirit of antiChrist - Rev 16:13-15 - satan, antiChrist and false prophet call the world to unite in rebellion against God ..
Armageddon - Rev 16:16 - armies gather together ..
Vial 7 - Rev 16:17-19 - air over Jerusalem and the ground cleaved in Jerusalem into 3 parts, also Hebrew cities nearby fell ..
(atomic or similar bomb ?)
Rev 16:20 pas = all - nesos = island - oros = mountain -
(it is not clear if "all" is in regards to within Israel or the whole world .. the prior seems most likely since the altered air is specifically localized to Jerusalem and the fallen cities to the ethnos would pertain to Hebrew)
ok .. to sum it up ..
the earth has a 1/3 water problem ..
the earth has a heat problem ..
and Israel has been greatly altered ..
this leaves the earth in not that bad of shape, as Jesus in His millennium reign (once the evil were destroyed) could easily restore these things for the millennium reign ..
the 7 bowls/vials of wrath/judgement to come upon the earth are enumerated in Rev chap 16 ..
note: effects are given, and I added my theories of the cause in parenthesis ..
Vial 1 - Rev 16:2 - sores on those who received the mark of the beast ..
(cancer from mark ?)
Vial 2 - Rev 16:3 - 1/3 of sea becomes red and stale, 1/3 aquatic life dies ..
(red algae ?)
Vial 3 - Rev 16:4-7 - 1/3 of rivers becomes red and stale, 1/3 aquatic life dies ..
(red algae ?)
Vial 4 - Rev 16:8-9 - sun intensifies and scorches people ..
(Jupiter, which is not a true planet but a gas giant ignites into a sun ?)
Vial 5 - Rev 16:10-11 - darkness over Jerusalem where is throne is (Jer 52:32, Mar 13:14, 2Th 2:4, Rev 2:13) ..
(whatever causes the darkness also gives pain .. tongue is a keyword here, perhaps an immense amount of dust in the air, like a miniature "nuclear winter" ?)
Vial 6 - Rev 16:12 - a geat draught, in the area dries up the Euphrates river so Asian ground forces can come ..
(perhaps caused by the immense heat of the 4th bowl/vial)
Spirit of antiChrist - Rev 16:13-15 - satan, antiChrist and false prophet call the world to unite in rebellion against God ..
Armageddon - Rev 16:16 - armies gather together ..
Vial 7 - Rev 16:17-19 - air over Jerusalem and the ground cleaved in Jerusalem into 3 parts, also Hebrew cities nearby fell ..
(atomic or similar bomb ?)
Rev 16:20 pas = all - nesos = island - oros = mountain -
(it is not clear if "all" is in regards to within Israel or the whole world .. the prior seems most likely since the altered air is specifically localized to Jerusalem and the fallen cities to the ethnos would pertain to Hebrew)
ok .. to sum it up ..
the earth has a 1/3 water problem ..
the earth has a heat problem ..
and Israel has been greatly altered ..
this leaves the earth in not that bad of shape, as Jesus in His millennium reign (once the evil were destroyed) could easily restore these things for the millennium reign ..
I see God giving His perspective ..
Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
the above is obviously the Genesis of the heavens and earth ..
the below is Israel spoiled in the potters hand, and Him breaking it to recreate it ..
note: if you look at Jer 4:23 it says "FORMLESS and VOID" the same as Genesis ..
EVERYTHING from Jer 4:24 onward describes "FORM and NON-VOID" ..
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were pulled downbefore the LORD, before His fierce anger.
(this is what I was saying in my last post .. it's inre Israel only)
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation, yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be dark, because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”
(the whole earth mourns over the destruction (Rev 18:9) which also make it dark (Rev 16:10-11))
Jer 4:29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees;
They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, and no man dwells in them.
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold, although you enlarge your eyes with paint, in vain you make yourself beautiful. Your lovers despise you; They seek your life.
(above is the harlot of Revelations being describe .. same words)
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, saying, “Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers.”
Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
the above is obviously the Genesis of the heavens and earth ..
the below is Israel spoiled in the potters hand, and Him breaking it to recreate it ..
note: if you look at Jer 4:23 it says "FORMLESS and VOID" the same as Genesis ..
EVERYTHING from Jer 4:24 onward describes "FORM and NON-VOID" ..
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were pulled downbefore the LORD, before His fierce anger.
(this is what I was saying in my last post .. it's inre Israel only)
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation, yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be dark, because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”
(the whole earth mourns over the destruction (Rev 18:9) which also make it dark (Rev 16:10-11))
Jer 4:29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees;
They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, and no man dwells in them.
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold, although you enlarge your eyes with paint, in vain you make yourself beautiful. Your lovers despise you; They seek your life.
(above is the harlot of Revelations being describe .. same words)
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, saying, “Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers.”
here is one more thing that weighs heavily on me ..
those kinda luke-warm Christians that are not raptured will either have to abjure what faith they have and receive the mark of the beast, which will damn them (Rev 14:11)
or
they will become saints and resist the mark of the beast by fighting back and be killed, or go to an internment camp (Rev 13:10) ..
Rev 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
those kinda luke-warm Christians that are not raptured will either have to abjure what faith they have and receive the mark of the beast, which will damn them (Rev 14:11)
or
they will become saints and resist the mark of the beast by fighting back and be killed, or go to an internment camp (Rev 13:10) ..
Rev 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
I'm just glad I'm going to Heaven pre or post. Both suit me just fine. Missing the tribulation is OK with me, but being able to save people during would be a blessing. God will take care of us either way.