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Pre-trib Or Post?
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
Matthew 24 says to the Church about the Parousia....
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming (the parousia), and of the end of the age?" (two different questions)...
4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you."
8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."
10"At that time many will fall away (apostasia) and will betray one another and hate one another."
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (which abomination is the Anti-Christ), standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. (the "elect" are saved Christians alive in that time period,,,present at the time of the Anti-Christ)
23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (who are still alive).
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be (not a secret).
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days (the one spoken of in verse 21) THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then (after these things...after the rise of Anti-Christ and the apostasia and the persecution during his portion of the tribulation) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the epiphenea at the parousia), and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (Zech.12:10), and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
So the whole world sees the coming (the parousia) and then
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (the Rapture occuring at the epiphenea/parousia event just like the others have described it)
a) the tribulation
b) the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after the tribulation" event
c) the Rapture occurs at this time
Remember in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (his coming), which according to Jesus whom we have just read, is when the Rapture occurs. According to Paul therefore again, the Rapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word of God from both Jesus and Paul...
James 5:7 tells us, the Church, to be "long-suffering, therefore, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord". So James also sees the Church remaining here until the Parousia.
In Revelations (John) we see spirit filled believers (the church) of every nation and tongue (not just Jewish people) who were killed by Anti-Christ for not receiving the mark and refusing to worship the image of the beast.
So Jesus, Paul, James, and John, all teach this…the church remains until the parousia (the second coming) and it is at that point three things happen…
The Anti-Christ is consumed
The dead in Christ shall rise
The elect are caught up (raptured to meet Him in the air before He descends to pour out God’s wrath on the nations and judges the nations.
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming (the parousia), and of the end of the age?" (two different questions)...
4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you."
8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."
10"At that time many will fall away (apostasia) and will betray one another and hate one another."
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (which abomination is the Anti-Christ), standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. (the "elect" are saved Christians alive in that time period,,,present at the time of the Anti-Christ)
23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (who are still alive).
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be (not a secret).
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days (the one spoken of in verse 21) THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then (after these things...after the rise of Anti-Christ and the apostasia and the persecution during his portion of the tribulation) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the epiphenea at the parousia), and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (Zech.12:10), and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
So the whole world sees the coming (the parousia) and then
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (the Rapture occuring at the epiphenea/parousia event just like the others have described it)
a) the tribulation
b) the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after the tribulation" event
c) the Rapture occurs at this time
Remember in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (his coming), which according to Jesus whom we have just read, is when the Rapture occurs. According to Paul therefore again, the Rapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word of God from both Jesus and Paul...
James 5:7 tells us, the Church, to be "long-suffering, therefore, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord". So James also sees the Church remaining here until the Parousia.
In Revelations (John) we see spirit filled believers (the church) of every nation and tongue (not just Jewish people) who were killed by Anti-Christ for not receiving the mark and refusing to worship the image of the beast.
So Jesus, Paul, James, and John, all teach this…the church remains until the parousia (the second coming) and it is at that point three things happen…
The Anti-Christ is consumed
The dead in Christ shall rise
The elect are caught up (raptured to meet Him in the air before He descends to pour out God’s wrath on the nations and judges the nations.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 - "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we (the church) who are still alive, who are left till the coming (the parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). After that (after the first resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (when He comes in the clouds). And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
Mark 13:26-27 - At that time (the parousia) men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This passage that Peter recalled to Mark while in Rome, speaks of the rapture (the gathering of His elect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the parousia (the coming of Christ) and that it is written that "men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, the people of the world. In other words, according to Mark/Peter/Jesus, the Rapture/Parousia/Coming will be no secret...
Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming (the Parousia) of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
So we see here that Matthew also understood that the Son of Man's coming (parousia) would be visible to all men, just like Peter's and Mark's understanding of Jesus own words, and when they see the pierced one, the nations will mourn because of Him (just as it says in Zechariah 12:10). This is revealed to be when He comes to gather His elect unto Himself. If one reads it carefully without interpolation, this is exactly what Paul also says...for the Lord...will come down...and it is at this very time that
a) the dead in Christ rise (the first resurrection), and
b) the elect are gathered unto Him
This is the plain word of the Lord, not conjecture, and nothing needs to be explained or eisegeted as to what this means...
John likewise tells us in Revelation 1:7, "Look, he is coming (the parousia) with the clouds, and every eye will see him (His appearance), even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
It will not be a secret by any means. It will be an earth shattering reality...Amen, this IS the word of the Lord.
Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
Mark 13:26-27 - At that time (the parousia) men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This passage that Peter recalled to Mark while in Rome, speaks of the rapture (the gathering of His elect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the parousia (the coming of Christ) and that it is written that "men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, the people of the world. In other words, according to Mark/Peter/Jesus, the Rapture/Parousia/Coming will be no secret...
Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming (the Parousia) of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
So we see here that Matthew also understood that the Son of Man's coming (parousia) would be visible to all men, just like Peter's and Mark's understanding of Jesus own words, and when they see the pierced one, the nations will mourn because of Him (just as it says in Zechariah 12:10). This is revealed to be when He comes to gather His elect unto Himself. If one reads it carefully without interpolation, this is exactly what Paul also says...for the Lord...will come down...and it is at this very time that
a) the dead in Christ rise (the first resurrection), and
b) the elect are gathered unto Him
This is the plain word of the Lord, not conjecture, and nothing needs to be explained or eisegeted as to what this means...
John likewise tells us in Revelation 1:7, "Look, he is coming (the parousia) with the clouds, and every eye will see him (His appearance), even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
It will not be a secret by any means. It will be an earth shattering reality...Amen, this IS the word of the Lord.
Amen......Christ will come "after" the tribulation
Amen, the scriptures speak for themselves, no need to explain if we just look at what they say.