Wait a second. Pharaoh hardened his heart or God hardened Pharaohs heart? I'm on the road so could someone quote the scripture for me?
Destiny Or Free Will?
- Thread starter Big Moose
- Start date
MichaelH
Inactive
God, over 400 years before to Abraham said..............
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Because Israel was not really Israel but Abraham's seed. God choose to use Egypt as the gathering place and "Breeding" place for Israel to multiply.
When God told this to Abraham, it was not many years back the flood had destroyed all mankind.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
What Pharaoh saw, he hardened his own heart toward letting Israel go.
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
(Exo 8:19)
so, it was not God actually doing something to his heart, it was God performing things that Pharaoh saw.
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.
(Exo 9:34-35)
God Knowing Pharaoh and setting up Pharaoh from the start said this to Moses.
God gave Pharaoh a chance............ Though...... God did know Pharaoh.
And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me? For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.
(Exo 5:22-23)
Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
So, Pharaoh was asked more than once, and did not budge........ So God said I will harden his heart and God did that by wonders which Pharaoh produced back by his own sorcerers.
Of course salvation is the work of God, I never said it was not. When God offered Cain a different path to what he was considering, it was God who made the path possible for Cain, God who came to Him and told him he did not have to do this....now had Cain taken the path and God fulfilled His promise it is still God who did this, Cain's correct response would only have been doing what God suggested (just not irresistibly compelled to do it). And also, the temporary atonement by the shedding of blood had already been established by God.
Here is what I think you may misunderstand about what I am showing you here...Cain listening to God and doing what He suggested (taking advantage of His gracious offer, as He just could have smote him then and there for not doing it right) does not equal Cain working for this atonement or Cains works meriting this atonement...it was simply God's word on the matter but Cain instead chose to be his own lord and decide good and evil for himself. Believing God and doing what God said is not a work (Romans 4:2-5) it is simply the right thing to do. He made the wrong choice (like his as yet unfallen father Adam did, Adam disregarded God's clear word to him and acted as his own god - Genesis 3:5 - as this idea of doing what he wanted his way appealed to his vanity/pride...that he in doing this would be as a god).
You missed the point! Let me give you one more example. It is said that God called Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem and take Judah captive...but Nebi already intended to do this and failed because God did not allow it. This time God simply used the intent of Nebi to serve His purpose...He did not protect them...on purpose...they had turned their backs on Him and would not regard His clear word to them over and over...what happened was the consequence of such rejection, self reliance, and rebellious self lordship. In Hebrews 12 the word author just means chief prince, not progenitor like in Hebrews 5, and finisher is "teleiōtēs" the one who makes perfect.
Calvinists TEACH this is means progenitor to fit their doctrine but it is incorrect (look it up in any Lexicon)
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We forgot Exodus 9:12..
Listen to our beautiful God in these verses, and pay attention to how he says "I will" and not "you will"
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness.
MichaelH
Inactive
I don't miss scriptures............... did I? Nah.............. Not me.
The point was............... Pharaoh had a chance, and by what he saw God do, hardened his own heart. God kept pouring it on.
Paul said Pharaoh was a vessel that God endured with lots of longsuffering. God is good as you stated above, and Pharaoh made his own bed.
Let's do a little analysis.
For God to know all, meaning every little detail, including who will and will not be saved, before they are born or created, then one must believe God intentionally created people whose purpose served Him here in this earthly existence and would ultimately be sent to hell for eternity, without possibility of a change of heart or destination.
Scripturally, this is easily debunked in many parts of the Bible. Right off the top, John 3:16 .
For God so loved the world <<seems like everybody, or the planet Earth which doesn't make sense with the rest of the verse, so we will go with everybody>> that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever <<pretty much anybody who will>> believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. <<This is a reiteration of verse 15 which states flatly "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
For the predestined camp, the verse would need changed to : For God so loved those He has called, that He gave his only begotten Son, that those predetermined to not perish, shall have everlasting life.
Then 1 Timothy 2:4-6, God's will that all be saved and He gave Jesus as a ransom for all... As in all, not some.
This would mean God was going against His own will and desire, to create many individuals with the intention to eventually send them to eternal damnation. This is preposterous and against a multitude of scripture. The command to spread the Gospel becomes null and void, for those destined for salvation will have it no matter what we do.
So total predestination is not scriptural. Let's look at the alternative. God does not know all which would make Him not all powerful nor all the omni's. This also is not scriptural. God is all powerful and all knowing.
How we reconcile this?
Scriptually, God is all powerful. Anything He speaks becomes what is. A N Y T H I N G. He also must follow the promises He makes. We must then allow for God to desire to limit His knowledge for a purpose only He can know. If He speaks it, it is. Any parameters He puts on it becomes the law.
This must be at least a possibility, for He can do it.
For God to know all, meaning every little detail, including who will and will not be saved, before they are born or created, then one must believe God intentionally created people whose purpose served Him here in this earthly existence and would ultimately be sent to hell for eternity, without possibility of a change of heart or destination.
Scripturally, this is easily debunked in many parts of the Bible. Right off the top, John 3:16 .
For God so loved the world <<seems like everybody, or the planet Earth which doesn't make sense with the rest of the verse, so we will go with everybody>> that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever <<pretty much anybody who will>> believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. <<This is a reiteration of verse 15 which states flatly "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
For the predestined camp, the verse would need changed to : For God so loved those He has called, that He gave his only begotten Son, that those predetermined to not perish, shall have everlasting life.
Then 1 Timothy 2:4-6, God's will that all be saved and He gave Jesus as a ransom for all... As in all, not some.
This would mean God was going against His own will and desire, to create many individuals with the intention to eventually send them to eternal damnation. This is preposterous and against a multitude of scripture. The command to spread the Gospel becomes null and void, for those destined for salvation will have it no matter what we do.
So total predestination is not scriptural. Let's look at the alternative. God does not know all which would make Him not all powerful nor all the omni's. This also is not scriptural. God is all powerful and all knowing.
How we reconcile this?
Scriptually, God is all powerful. Anything He speaks becomes what is. A N Y T H I N G. He also must follow the promises He makes. We must then allow for God to desire to limit His knowledge for a purpose only He can know. If He speaks it, it is. Any parameters He puts on it becomes the law.
This must be at least a possibility, for He can do it.
Do you believe that faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)? If so, how can you believe that we have a part in our salvation? Faith is the will to respond to the call of God. So, even the will to respond to the call of God has been given to us by grace. Other passages reinforce this idea (Philippians 2:13).
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MichaelH
Inactive
You were doing good.............. both sides have a doctrine that keeps in their mind God's Sovereignty. In fact, both sides are based on keeping what they consider God's Sovereignty.
Just because you don't know something, does not mean you can't melt a mountain with a command. No scripture says that God knows every mans choice or action.
In fact, God repented that He had made Saul King, for Saul would not obey him..... God told Eli that though he promised Eli's house would be the Royal priesthood, far be it from him that he honors whom honors him and who does not honor him is lightly esteemed.
It's this preconception of what God should be, as opposed to the scripture that men get confused.
A limited God makes no sense because in that case how can God promise something to mankind? His promises are firm only if he is in control of the universe and can not only predict but also direct the course of events. That's the only kind of God that deserves to be called God. Also, both universal love and universal atonement are compatible with the creation of people who are destined to hell from the very beginning. These people play a crucial role in the history of the world and though God would like them to be saved, he can't save them, otherwise his plan to reveal himself to mankind would not be completely fulfilled. For instance, what proofs of the power and justice of God would we have if he pardons absolutely everyone and justifies absolutely everyone? If there is no judgement at all, how can we talk of justice? Also, how can we tell that God is powerful enough to vanquish his enemies if there are no enemies?
MichaelH
Inactive
Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the Word of God. Faith will die for a belief, and many die foolishly for what they believe. Man has the capacity to have faith, for they strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in false faith that they see better.
Hearing the right things, cause the right faith in the right things.
Yes, election does not remove the need for preaching, since how can we believe in what we ignore. Also, I think we have to make a clear distinction between faith in Jesus (given to us by God) and faith in idols (not given to us by God). Only the former is called faith is the New Testament.
MichaelH
Inactive
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The bible defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1
So the Bible does not denote that faith is just called faith, if it's just faith in God.
Jesus said oh ye of little faith. So there are levels of faith.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Jesus told Jairus to fear not, only believe. He was not born again, and yet had the ability to believe something.
So, faith to have your daughter raised from the dead, Faith to the Centurion who had his servant healed by Jesus speaking the Word only, Faith to the women whom said even the dogs get the Masters crumbs, and faith to the Harlot mentioned in Hebrews 11.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
So, faith is from us not something God gives, but we choose to believe. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus said it's according to the faith, Your faith, you receive.
God's will to heal the Child........... But..........
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(Mat 17:18-20)
Now if they operated on God's faith, then Jesus would not have had to get involved with the Child.
Jesus said the sower sows the Word and take heed what ye hear, for it's like a mustard seed. (Mark 4)
All men have the capacity to believe.
The scriptures clearly teach that faith is a gift of God. Check Ephesians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 12:8-9, Hebrews 12:2.
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MichaelH
Inactive
sigh.......... the grace is the gift.....................
and the other is speaking of believers who operate in the gifts of the Spirit.
So, no........ the scripture teaches that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and a measure of the faith is given to every man as i posted.
In fact, all the examples I posted were from those not even born again.
Do you want me to post the many scriptures about we are to believe and have faith?
You don't take 2, and ignore 10. You get into error that way, big time.............This is a good place to learn, and get out of the fishbowl of what you have heard. It's why I am here, to leave that fishbowl.
and the other is speaking of believers who operate in the gifts of the Spirit.
So, no........ the scripture teaches that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and a measure of the faith is given to every man as i posted.
In fact, all the examples I posted were from those not even born again.
Do you want me to post the many scriptures about we are to believe and have faith?
You don't take 2, and ignore 10. You get into error that way, big time.............This is a good place to learn, and get out of the fishbowl of what you have heard. It's why I am here, to leave that fishbowl.
Hi. Thanks for your offer. However, it is not necessary. Even if God says that we must have faith that doesn't mean that faith is not given to us from God. We can ask God for faith. For example, in Mark 9:24.
You know in the internet world all caps means a person is yelling and all those ……… makes one believe a person is very stressed or very annoyed. Brother are you annoyed and stressed?
I have read some of the post on this thread and as usual Mike is screaming at the top of his voice about things he has little or no understanding about! Most of us have just come to ignore him for the most part. God IS NOT subject to temporal time, He made this realm of time and He abides outside of time as we understand it, in the eternal realm. To understand "election" and how God works in the affairs of men, one must understand this truth!
MichaelH
Inactive
Yes, give 5 scriptures about faith and the person misunderstands two they hold onto.
God invented faith, where else does it come from?
What did Jesus say to the man? He said all things are possible to those whom God has given faith?
NO.
He said all things are possible to them that believe. Who? them that will believe, not them God zaps with faith.
The man then said, I have faith, Help with my unbelief.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:17)
Where does faith come from? It comes by hearing something and hearing the Word of God. Do people have ears to hear? You have God's Word, and you have ears.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
What happens if someone does not take heed? We blame God for that? All God's fault?
Is the Word not strong enough to effect everyone that can hear?
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
(Mar 4:23-24)
Who is responsible for taking heed to what they hear? We blame God if someone is not hearing? Is that what Jesus said, to blame God because God did not put faith in them which they should have gotten by hearing?
The Word produces faith, but a person must have faith to believe the Word????????????????
We wonder why that cart won't go anywhere because we got our horse tied to the back of the cart thinking it's going to know to push the cart for us.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
(Mat 7:24-26)
What did Jesus say? he say whosoever God gave faith to can hear his sayings? he say God gets the blame for those building their house on the sand? All God's fault right?
The Lord wonders if He will find faith on earth and what is wrong with his church............... His people can't read, that is one of the Lord's issues. Reading and comparing scriptures is just to hard.
Amazing.