Was Job Real?
- Thread starter Apologia
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It is said that Job is the oldest book... All the OT books are shadows of reality, real, but shadows because we live in shadows of what is real. This is how the word of God can be literal and figurative at the same time. The written word is a map to all to the Word of God, Jesus, it's not the end all but just the beginning. Glory to God!!
Job was someone who lived under the Old covenant at the most. We are not even sure he had a covenant with God really as he may have lived before Abraham. He certainly wasn't an adopted son through the blood of Jesus. He was obviously a believer in God but not a Christian as no one was a Christian until Christ came.
Job teaches us very little about the contemporary Christian experience or life in the Spirit. It does, however, have a surprising number of lessons about denominationalism.
Job teaches us very little about the contemporary Christian experience or life in the Spirit. It does, however, have a surprising number of lessons about denominationalism.
I completely disagree! Job was the first to realize he needed a saviour!
Job 16:21 (KJV)
O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbour!
Job is the perfect 'christian' in his actions - and lots of them. He had no peace, no rest and no safety.
Job 3:26 (KJV)
I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
How so? Because he sacrificed for his kids "just in case" they sinned. That's not trusting in God, it's being religious.
Job 1:5 (KJV)
And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
We learn more about God in Job than almost any other book save Psalms and what He did in the world. Modern science and industries have benefited the most from Job. As for the life in the Spirit it is most relevant in that we can see behind the veil of darkness and talk about Job's patience and is lumped in with Daniel and Noah as being able to save only themselves by their own righteousness. We learn of the tenderness and mercy of God towards His when they humble themselves and repent. Job was restored when he prayed for others, just like Abraham when he prayed for Abimelech to have children then he too got healed (i.e. Sarah)!
Love your neighbors as yourself, says Jesus, and it is so demonstrated in Job's actions.
So yes, I beg to differ in your interpretation of Job.
I knew someone would. There will be different opinions abound on Job depending on whether one holds to the beliefs of Calvinism, Arminianism, free will theism, pentecostalism or cessationalism or whether they believe the church began in Acts 2 or mount Sinai, or whenever.
Job is probably one of the most controversial books amongst Christians. Therefore it is no surprise to me that people will diverge on its interpretation.
I made no mention of whether Job was trusting God. You brought that up. I did not comment on it.
Regarding the new birth I was a little surprised that someone would come out and say Job was a born again Christian. It appears opinions are more diverse than even I expected.
I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Being called a "christian" isn't Christ like. Job put his trust in God. More than some smug people who claim to know more than God.
I wonder who you are referring to as smug. This sounds like this is becoming another one of those hostile threads that ends up in an argument for 20 pages, without any real gain in understanding, and I dont wish to play so I'm unsubscribing from this thread.
Reading back I may have misread your response. I have nothing against civil discussion and have become a bit jaded by the constant senselss arguments on this forum and so it was easy for me to start seeing the forum "boogeymen" everywhere. If that was my misjudgement in this case I apologise. I have nothing against civil discussion and genuine diffences of opinion. Its not necessary to agree on everything.
Having gotten that out of the way there does seem to be have been a bit of misunderstanding in what was said. I clarified my earlier statements about whether I consider Job to being a born again Christian or not. That was what I was getting at. Somehow the conversation got derailed at that point.
I agree with you that the book of Job is used, sometimes, as an excuse not to trust God in certain areas of life.
Having gotten that out of the way there does seem to be have been a bit of misunderstanding in what was said. I clarified my earlier statements about whether I consider Job to being a born again Christian or not. That was what I was getting at. Somehow the conversation got derailed at that point.
I agree with you that the book of Job is used, sometimes, as an excuse not to trust God in certain areas of life.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
I have thought about this too and have come to the conclusion it doesn't matter either way. I love the book of Job. Every time I start it I end up finishing it the same day.
As far as I can tell, Job has no major impact on the main narrative of the Bible. His story is just kind of placed in there with the poetry and left at that. My agnostic friend would be relieved if it was a just a story to teach us how to act in the face of trails since it's this very book that bothers him most in the Bible.
I don't really have an opinion on it. It's not like it's necessary for Job's story to be real since it wouldn't effect anything anyway. Also, since it is with the wisdom and poetic books it could easily just be poetry.
Chili, the parables weren't true stories, but there was truth in them. I don't see anything wrong with taking this book as poetry rather than true events since it's conveys the same truth regardless.
As far as I can tell, Job has no major impact on the main narrative of the Bible. His story is just kind of placed in there with the poetry and left at that. My agnostic friend would be relieved if it was a just a story to teach us how to act in the face of trails since it's this very book that bothers him most in the Bible.
I don't really have an opinion on it. It's not like it's necessary for Job's story to be real since it wouldn't effect anything anyway. Also, since it is with the wisdom and poetic books it could easily just be poetry.
Chili, the parables weren't true stories, but there was truth in them. I don't see anything wrong with taking this book as poetry rather than true events since it's conveys the same truth regardless.
I would agree with this. This is one of the books in the Bible I have read the most and get great revelations out of it every time. So arguments toward why God would let Satan do this to someone is because these people do not understand that the Book of Job was one of poetry and not actually real?
Huntingteckel
Inactive
I'm not sure if it's a true story or not, but it would honestly be better, in my mind, if it was poetry. We aren't guaranteed a comfortable life, only that we will reap rewards in the next, but the story of Job is bothersome to me. Sure, he got "more" in the end but that doesn't change all that he lost either. I can only imagine the profound hurt that Job felt, if he was in fact a real person, knowing that God was letting those things happen to him.
If my house burnt to the ground today, taking my wife and pets with it and I was left outside in the street to stare at the rising smoke, would I be able to praise God for life? I would hope so, but I doubt it. What if he gave me a supermodel for a wife a year later? Would that take away the severe pain that I would feel over that loss? I don't think so.
Also, the story of Job is a strange one considering we just read through the Pentateuch and History books where God is defending His people. Then poor Job comes along and God's like "well, just don't kill the man." That, in my opinion, is very strange since I don't think it's done anywhere else in the Bible (that I can remember).
I have always read Job as poetry. That isn't to say I didn't and don't believe it really happened, but to me it is a non issue as it really doesn't effect my beliefs and the core teaching of the book is still intact even if you read it as a poetic parable.
My agnostic friend almost always cites this book when we talk about the Bible and I understand why it bothers him. He says that if God is willing to let Satan do that to a man He calls righteous, then what hope is there for us? And I guess I agree with him.
The Hope is Christ and whether you can see it or not this book was about Christ also. Read the last of the book and see what Job came to understand. The thing we all need to see? And consider Christ who never in any way sinned, yet suffered! Job was able to endure these things because he walked with God and he is forever remembered in that he continued with the Lord in all his trials. God is not unjust in this! And we are told to "consider the END of Job" in our own trials..In that we consider that in our trials, God will deliver and bless us above the point where the trial began.
For me that is not a question.. Job is referred at many places in NT, like Mitspa quoted.. I just finished studying James along with my wife.. James specifically quotes Job, when talking about steadfastness.. For me, saying Job could have been imaginary is as good as saying Abraham was imaginary.. Or Moses was imaginary..
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Abraham and Moses are part of the genealogy so it isn't the same thing and just because someone refers back something doesn't mean that it isn't fiction. People refer back to the parables of Jesus and we all know that those stories aren't real.
James also refers to Job.. Every word is inspired by Holy spirit.. Some one can claim even genealogy is made up.. My point is, when there is no indication in text itself, it is not good to wonder if that really happened
The problem in the OP is you cannot "prove" most ancient people. Most of the time we only have information allegedly from them or from others many years after them. Hammurabi is such an example...we have his alleged code...but how do we know someone just didn't claim to be Hammurabi? Se what I mean? Now I certainly believe in Hammurabi because I see no reason to believe he was not a real person. So why would one think Job was not a real person? What proof is there he may not have been? Same with Alexander the Great, who would doubt he was real? But "proof"? Not much I can tell you that. Most of what we know about him is from 100s of years after his death.