Not knowing the day or hour...
- Thread starter Big Moose
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This would be a wonderful discussion! people have formed below theories based on this verse
1) Jesus is God. And Jesus does not know something. So God does not know something. God is not omniscient.
2) Simply, Jesus is not God.
I have commonly come across the above 2 interpretations. Point #2 is what Jehovahs Witness claim as well. The common interpretation is that, Jesus had both the God nature and man nature. He restricted his divine nature as per Father's will.
We have to remember that Jesus has always been God (John 1:1) but took on human nature at a point in time (Phil. 2:5-11). So he was speaking as a human when speaking of things he didn't know. And he spoke in the present tense; that is, it applied at that time and not necessarily after his ascension. So I would agree with the statement that "He restricted his divine nature" for a time.
My take is that He took off His "Godly" powers to live like we do and be guided by the Holy Spirit just as we should be. Everything He did on earth was as a Man guided by the Holy Spirit executing what He saw the Father do. Think about it, how could He justly expect us to follow the Holy Spirit if He didn't choose to set aside His Godly power and only follow the Spirit as well? He had that power on His Own, but He chose not to use it. Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. That's how He could say He didn't know when He'd be back. He chose to live like us with only the information the Spirit would give Him. This is how He learned obedience.
I believe He knows now because He's seated on the right hand of God as God being fully glorified. By the way, there is also only one day a year that cannot be known in advance: 1 Tishri - the Feast of Trumpets. The new moon must be witnessed by two reputable people and declared by the Sanhedrin. It may have also been a clue to when the rapture and the second coming would occur. Another thing: without a point on the planet, how can anyone know the day or the hour? There are 2 days on the planet at any given time, and with 32 time zones. Just a thought
Since Jesus had two natures, a human nature that grew in Wisdom, and then he had a divine nature that knew all things. I believes Jesus was speaking from his human nature when he made that statement. Now that we have Christ in us that day will not overtake us as a thief in the night, for we are not the children of darkness, but of the light.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Great replies. I think He did set aside His Godly power, which makes all the more interesting:
Walking on the water
Healings
Raising Lazarus from the dead
Knowing the hearts of the Pharisees
Calming the storm
Sending Peter to get the money from the fish's mouth
Feeding thousands
Water to wine
So are all these done with just faith? A special connection with the Father?
And the woman healed by touching His robe, is that how much faith was emanating from Him?
Walking on the water
Healings
Raising Lazarus from the dead
Knowing the hearts of the Pharisees
Calming the storm
Sending Peter to get the money from the fish's mouth
Feeding thousands
Water to wine
So are all these done with just faith? A special connection with the Father?
And the woman healed by touching His robe, is that how much faith was emanating from Him?
They are for us as well, via the Holy Spirit.
John 14:12 (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Unfortunately, many don't see it, so they say ignorantly "It must not be interpreted correctly" but I say, we just don't have the obedience to follow the Holy Spirit as commanded.
Every thing Jesus did was by faith. There is a very large group of people who call themselves Christians who do not believe that God uses faith for anything. This is not true, as "faith" is one of fruits of the Spirit. It is a part of God's very nature. Anything that that does not proceed from faith is sin. Jesus always operated by faith in his actions and in his thinking, which is why His Father that was dwelling in him did mighty works through him. Remember that faith comes from the Word which in turn causes the Word to work through us who happens to be Jesus!
Each member of the trinity has their roles and functions...only the Father sends the Son, not the Spirit also, but both the Father and the Son can send the Spirit....the Son glorifies the Father, and the Spirit glorifies the Son, only the Son personally experiences the death of the cross, no one has ever seen the Father of heard His voice, the appearences and thus saiths are either the Son or the Spirit, you must be born of the Spirit (not the Father or the Son)...and so on
Correction:
Matthew 17:5 (KJV)
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Peter, Jacob and John heard the Father's voice...
I see what is being said, however have you considered that Scripture expressly affirms that Christ is omnipresent. When He assumed a human nature did He have to give up any part of His divine nature? I do not think so.
After all, the incarnation was a miracle of addition, not subtraction.
Doesn't that then mean that when Jesus took on humanity; He did not divest himself of deity.
I do also agree that NOW, back at the right hand of God the Father, He must know the exact time of His 2nd Coming.
Mark 1: 9-12
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
Luke 4: 18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Acts 1: 5-8
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14: 23
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2: 18
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
Luke 4: 18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Acts 1: 5-8
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14: 23
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2: 18
When God came to planet Earth from Heaven in the form of human nature it was an earthly ministry to preach the Gospel, to bring about an end to temple sacrifices, to make the Kingdom of God available to the nations outside of Judah/Jews, to establish his Spirit-filled Church here on Earth.
It was not necessary nor pertinent for knowledge of the "Last Day" or "The Day Of The Lord" to be a part of this ministry.
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. Matthew 18: 11
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. Luke 9: 55-56
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Luke 12:40
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Matthew 25: 13
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. Mark 13: 32-33
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1Peter 4: 7
So how do we reconcile Jesus own words in John 5 which say "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
Perhaps Jesus words in John 5:37 above were meaning before the Mount of Transfiguration and even the glory only seen by these three and the voice of the Father by only these three...what do you think?
YES. In all the gospel accounts of the baptism of Jesus a voice from heaven speaks... for example:
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3: 16-17
This is in all first three Gospels. And I would say that as it is the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus and infilling him (as later disciples would also be) then it is the voice of the Holy Spirit that people present would have heard. This would be scripturally consistent with John 3: 8
The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit. DRB
Furthermore, in my KJV, John 5, verse 7 precedes the "feeding of the five thousand." Looking in Matthew and Mark both have these miraculous feedings several chapters before the transfiguration. Again the same words as at Jesus's baptisms of water and the Spirit - and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." Mark 9: 7 On both these occasions it would be in all likelihood the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking.
This also fits in consistently with the operation of the voice gifts done decently and in order in a Pentecosatal meeting where ALL three voice gifts are given by the power and working of the Holy Spirit - and yet there is an interchanging of sources attributed to both Jesus and our Father. Yet at all times spoken through the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Very good...but in Jesus Baptism accounts it never says anyone heard else heard the voice....
Man that statement I put in red sure makes you wonder then....what do you do with ...
Hebrews 11:6 But without Faith it is impossible to please Him: for He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Well, when you have it wrong you really have it wrong. I think they think that man is the only being that needs faith, and that God does not need faith to operate. Why would God need faith in himself is probably what they are thinking. How ever God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each part of the Godhead has faith in each other. In Hebrews 2:13 it talks about the Father putting trust in his Son, and Jesus always had faith in his Father, or he could have never "pleased" him. Faith itself is a spirit. "...we having the same spirit of faith...". One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is "faith" so, anyone even considering that God does not use faith is simply uninformed in my opinion. Besides the Holy Spirit does not give something that belongs to someone else, as it comes from him who happens to be God.
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