Not knowing the day or hour...

Very good...but in Jesus Baptism accounts it never says anyone heard else heard the voice....
It also does not indicate that no one else apart from Jesus and John heard a voice from Heaven. I would speculate that a voice from Heaven is spoken for people to hear. To be convicted.

Father, glorify thy name. A voice therefore came from heaven: I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.
The multitude therefore that stood and heard said that it thundered. Others said: An angel spoke to him.
Jesus answered and said: This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. John 12: 28-30
 
So how do we reconcile Jesus own words in John 5 which say "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Lets try this on for size here shall we....
John 12: 27-30
27.....This is Jesus speaking......Now my soul be troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour : BUT for this cause came I unto this hour.
28....Again Jesus speaking.......Father, glorify thy name.
Now the voice from heaven is spoken of........still 28.....Then came there a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
29...The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: OTHERS said, An angel spake to Him.
30...Jesus answered and said, "This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Ok here are two thoughts for you.....
1...it was a different group of People who had not ever heard the voice of God in any way shape or form......both in prayer and else where.
2...People heard the voice of God but would NOT believe it was truly the voice of God.

Now lets real quick look at John 5:37-38
37.....and the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.
38....and ye HAVE NOT HIS WORD abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not.

Now lets look to who Jesus was talking to. He was talking to Pharisee's and Sadducees and other people and this included some higher ups too. In this time of saying you have not heard God's voice...........Jesus is referring to the fact that they pushed and believed thier jewish laws and traditions and had thier own set idea's on what was written in the scriptures and who it would be talking about.....

Here in 46-47 we see
46...For had ye believed Mosses, ye would have believed me: for he WROTE OF ME.
47...But if ye believe NOT his writings, how shall ye believe my words...
  • Then Jesus moves on.........later down the road is when the Father spoke,"I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN." and the people heard the voice of God.
I hope this helps and gives you a better idea or another perspective.
Love in Christ
Jim
 
Amen Brother
It's not ONLY spirit but Kingdom law too.
Spiirit of faith
Faith is power and thus made it this way so it is simply another example on how the kingdom of God works....
 
So how do we reconcile Jesus own words in John 5 which say "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
Remember Jesus only spoke what he heard his Father say. Every time the Father speaks so does the Son and so does the Holy Spirit since Jesus said my words are spirit and they are life. Do not forget that the Holy Spirit only speaks what he hears, and does speak on his own. All three persons of the Godhead speak together.
Jesus in this scripture was talking to some Jews that wanted to kill him. Jesus was constantly telling his followers that they had ears to hear, but could not hear, and eyes to see, but they could not see. It was not because God the Father was not talking that they never heard his voice, it was because they were unable to hear his voice for their hearts had grown callous.
 
So how do we reconcile Jesus own words in John 5 which say "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
Timeline brother, timeline... John 5 comes before Matthew 17...
 
Remember Jesus only spoke what he heard his Father say. Every time the Father speaks so does the Son and so does the Holy Spirit since Jesus said my words are spirit and they are life. Do not forget that the Holy Spirit only speaks what he hears, and does speak on his own. All three persons of the Godhead speak together.
Jesus in this scripture was talking to some Jews that wanted to kill him. Jesus was constantly telling his followers that they had ears to hear, but could not hear, and eyes to see, but they could not see. It was not because God the Father was not talking that they never heard his voice, it was because they were unable to hear his voice for their hearts had grown callous.
I'm guessing you mean when He was speaking to others. I doubt the Father was speaking through Jesus when He ask if this cup could be taken away. Or my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 
Amen Brother
It's not ONLY spirit but Kingdom law too.
Spiirit of faith
Faith is power and thus made it this way so it is simply another example on how the kingdom of God works....
Yes, faith is possibly the greatest supernatural power, and is a great argument for the existence of God. We, and our society in general, rely so much on faith, not just in God, but in each other. Take your car to the garage, you have faith it will get fixed. Otherwise you would not take it there. We use pieces of paper called "money" and we have faith that it has value. Full faith and credit, as it were. We go to the grocery store believing there will be food there to purchase.
On and on, faith has such a powerful influence on our lives. We can see throughout history, all the power struggles which always develop when faith in the rulers or governing systems or economic conditions dwindles or disappears.
 
I'm guessing you mean when He was speaking to others. I doubt the Father was speaking through Jesus when He ask if this cup could be taken away. Or my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Weather Jesus was speaking from within his human nature or divine nature, it is still God speaking. Hearing these words only shows to us the humanity of Jesus in what he felt as a man. Every word Jesus spoke came as a result of his Father dwelling within him.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps

Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
 
Yes, faith is possibly the greatest supernatural power, and is a great argument for the existence of God. We, and our society in general, rely so much on faith, not just in God, but in each other. Take your car to the garage, you have faith it will get fixed. Otherwise you would not take it there. We use pieces of paper called "money" and we have faith that it has value. Full faith and credit, as it were. We go to the grocery store believing there will be food there to purchase.
On and on, faith has such a powerful influence on our lives. We can see throughout history, all the power struggles which always develop when faith in the rulers or governing systems or economic conditions dwindles or disappears.

Big Moose, the difference between taking your car to a garage to get it fixed, and having "faith" that it will be fixed, only comes from the "source". Godly "faith" only comes from the "Word" of God and not from anything else. Faith is always "specific" to the promise from where it comes.
 
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Lets try this on for size here shall we....
John 12: 27-30
27.....This is Jesus speaking......Now my soul be troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour : BUT for this cause came I unto this hour.
28....Again Jesus speaking.......Father, glorify thy name.
Now the voice from heaven is spoken of........still 28.....Then came there a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
29...The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: OTHERS said, An angel spake to Him.
30...Jesus answered and said, "This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Ok here are two thoughts for you.....
1...it was a different group of People who had not ever heard the voice of God in any way shape or form......both in prayer and else where.
2...People heard the voice of God but would NOT believe it was truly the voice of God.

Now lets real quick look at John 5:37-38
37.....and the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.
38....and ye HAVE NOT HIS WORD abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not.

Now lets look to who Jesus was talking to. He was talking to Pharisee's and Sadducees and other people and this included some higher ups too. In this time of saying you have not heard God's voice...........Jesus is referring to the fact that they pushed and believed thier jewish laws and traditions and had thier own set idea's on what was written in the scriptures and who it would be talking about.....

Here in 46-47 we see
46...For had ye believed Mosses, ye would have believed me: for he WROTE OF ME.
47...But if ye believe NOT his writings, how shall ye believe my words...
  • Then Jesus moves on.........later down the road is when the Father spoke,"I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN." and the people heard the voice of God.
I hope this helps and gives you a better idea or another perspective.
Love in Christ
Jim

Love it Jim but it does not address the question I asked here....Jesus said "no man has seen the Father at any time, neither have they heard His voice" so we options

a) He means not before that time but soon after (now that He is here, some will)
b) He is speaking figuratively and meaning no one has deeply and actually listened
c)It was a contradiction being embellished by John's memory

And there may be more but what does John 5:37 mean IN YOUR EXEGESIS
Thanks

Paul
 
Love it Jim but it does not address the question I asked here....Jesus said "no man has seen the Father at any time, neither have they heard His voice" so we options

a) He means not before that time but soon after (now that He is here, some will)
b) He is speaking figuratively and meaning no one has deeply and actually listened
c)It was a contradiction being embellished by John's memory

And there may be more but what does John 5:37 mean IN YOUR EXEGESIS
Thanks

Paul

Paul Hello,
Here is your origional question....
So how do we reconcile Jesus own words in John 5which say "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Jesus was talking to a different set of people....Under different circumstances....these people felt they were the true children of God. They felt they were in perfect order in what they believed..
Jesus said what He did as in saying....come on guys.......cut the crap.......you have not ever heard or seen the father.......your actions and words show this........ in this passage Jesus reference to hearing........or seeing was as saying man you think you know GOD BUT YOU DONT KNOW SQUAT BOYS.....FOR I am the MESSIAH and you don't even know ME and yet claim you know the sacred scriptures better then all...

If I was to pick one of your a.b.c's I would say kind of B for their beliefs were selfish and stuck on them selves....They liked the attention and in fact they demanded it.....which is yet another reason Jesus said they had not ever heard or seen

This is what I see or get fromthe two different passages.....If this isnot what you are looking for then what am I missing ??
Jim
 
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A minister can get too involved in this discussion.

I will simply say: In my non professional opinion, Jesus is God but lived as a normal man. He wanted to lead by example - guide us in what we should do without using his divine powers.
 
A minister can get too involved in this discussion.

I will simply say: In my non professional opinion, Jesus isn't God but lived as a normal man. He wanted to lead by example - guide us in what we should do without using his divine powers.
Brother, you do not believe Jesus is God? He remained God during His walk in this world.
 
Each member of the trinity has their roles and functions...only the Father sends the Son, not the Spirit also, but both the Father and the Son can send the Spirit....the Son glorifies the Father, and the Spirit glorifies the Son, only the Son personally experiences the death of the cross, no one has ever seen the Father of heard His voice, the appearences and thus saiths are either the Son or the Spirit, you must be born of the Spirit (not the Father or the Son)...and so on

Your description has terminology
"Monotheistic Relational Subordination Trinitarianism"
Basically a same-substance eternal Trichotomy that operates with separate distinctions, roles and missions.

(not to be confused with the early church "Subordinationists" who would rank Christ as a lower being.
 
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