Unanswered Prayers

Absolutely. But the claim has been made repeatedly in this thread that Job had to have sinned, even if it means turning the results of the calamities into the causes. Never mind the explicit statement from God about Job's innocence; that's apparently a proof-text, a theology built from a single verse. And the motivation is to claim, in spite of what God said about Job, that everyone who suffers is guilty of some hidden sin. The theology drives the exegesis, which is backwards.

Well said!
 
To be totally honest, your post is way toooo long.
So I will point out something based on the earlier part of your post. You posted....
"Once his children grew up he began to fret and worry every time his children got together and had a party. He worried in fear that his children were sinning against God."
You need to be careful about where you want to run with this...careful where you want to lead others too.

Today, we don't do sacrifices.. burnt offerings and blood sprinkling and the like.
But we do, or perhaps I ought to say we should engage with the Lord in intercessory prayer.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

I suggest that for Job to offer intercessory sacrifices for his sons, is in essence no different from someone offering up intercessory prayer today. Fear is being misused greatly here in this thread. IMNSHO
The idea that cursing God will bring death is testified to by Job's wife when she suggested he curse God and die.....anybody know a good divorce layer?:D
Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die."
Anyway the point is that Job was blameless and upright before the Lord. It is probably significant that the info of Job's intercessory ministry comes immediately before the Lord points out Job's virtue to Satan.
I believe much false understanding is being fueled by a wrong understanding of the word fear as it is used in context.
Job 1:22. In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (what has gone before.)
We are either going to believe the word of God or we are not.

Amen bro!
 
I just believe what God actually says and that is that Job was perfect, blameless and upright... in HIS EYES. In addition, you as well as many base everything on 'fear' when if you really study the book of Job you find that it is not teaching about fear. Many make the mistake you have and take one statement from Job and build an entire theory saying Job suffered all the calamities because of fear. The book of Job is about the faithfulness of Job and the awesomeness of God. Job is shown to be innocent and blameless from the beginning from the mouth of God. Whatever 'man' thinks of Job (even inside of his concern for his children), God saw him as blameless and faithful.

Think of this which seems to be the center of the conflict...........
If all are sinners, then how can Job be perfect?

Job 1:1 says........
"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil".

Then there is Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory (approval) of God".

And Romans 3:10.............
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

And we can not forget Psalms 14:3........
"There is none that doeth good, no not one".

I think we all see the problem but some seem to be looking beyond what is actually being said. How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? First of all Job 1:1 is not saying that Job was "perfect," that is, totally without sin, but rather, that he was "loyal/complete/moral". Some will even say that it means to keep the law.

Dr. James White says........
The Hebrew terms used in these passages do not mean sinlessness. Rather, the Hebrew word is tam, which refers to completeness, not sinless perfection. When applied to man, it would refer to a complete man with moral integrity.
(Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon for details).
The word "Tam" is understood to be equated with "well-rounded" or "fulfilling one's duties" or "in the right place" which would include proper reaction to sin, but it does not mean "sinless perfection".

If anyone is thinking that Job was "sinless and perfect" then you are reading into the Word of God what you want it to say and that speaks more of denominational teaching or an agenda than it does Biblical exegesis.

Any blamelessness and righteousness Job had was on account of his relationship with God who forgives and forgave him. Job was corrected for his sin in Job 39.

Job even repents: "Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes" in Job 42:6.

Job was not sinless, but he was a loyal, moral and complete man before God.

I do not have a dog in this hunt so please do not think I am arguing with anyone. I just thought you all might need a little more insight on the subject.
 
As we know, all men have sinned and were born in sin and shapened in iniquity because of Adam and the Law of Sin and Death. This stands for all of mankind unless they have been born again. Job died before the promise of the Holy Spirit became a reality. So yes of course, Job was born a sinner because of Adam. But as regarding Job's walk before God, the Lord says Job was "blameless". As for any sin, we know Job sacrificed animals to the Lord as atonement for his sins or that of others. If Job had a mess of fear in him or any unrepentant sin, the Lord would not be saying he was blameless. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil." Job hated evil and hated sin.
 
Think of this which seems to be the center of the conflict...........
If all are sinners, then how can Job be perfect?

Job 1:1 says........
"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil".

Then there is Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory (approval) of God".

And Romans 3:10.............
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

And we can not forget Psalms 14:3........
"There is none that doeth good, no not one".

I think we all see the problem but some seem to be looking beyond what is actually being said. How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? First of all Job 1:1 is not saying that Job was "perfect," that is, totally without sin, but rather, that he was "loyal/complete/moral". Some will even say that it means to keep the law.

Dr. James White says........
The Hebrew terms used in these passages do not mean sinlessness. Rather, the Hebrew word is tam, which refers to completeness, not sinless perfection. When applied to man, it would refer to a complete man with moral integrity.
(Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon for details).
The word "Tam" is understood to be equated with "well-rounded" or "fulfilling one's duties" or "in the right place" which would include proper reaction to sin, but it does not mean "sinless perfection".

If anyone is thinking that Job was "sinless and perfect" then you are reading into the Word of God what you want it to say and that speaks more of denominational teaching or an agenda than it does Biblical exegesis.

Any blamelessness and righteousness Job had was on account of his relationship with God who forgives and forgave him. Job was corrected for his sin in Job 39.

Job even repents: "Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes" in Job 42:6.

Job was not sinless, but he was a loyal, moral and complete man before God.

I do not have a dog in this hunt so please do not think I am arguing with anyone. I just thought you all might need a little more insight on the subject.
As we know, all men have sinned and were born in sin and shapened in iniquity because of Adam and the Law of Sin and Death. This stands for all of mankind unless they have been born again. Job died before the promise of the Holy Spirit became a reality. So yes of course, Job was born a sinner because of Adam. But as regarding Job's walk before God, the Lord says Job was "blameless". As for any sin, we know Job sacrificed animals to the Lord as atonement for his sins or that of others. If Job had a mess of fear in him or any unrepentant sin, the Lord would not be saying he was blameless. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil." Job hated evil and hated sin.
 
If we can not trust in the Word of God when it says, "Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. "
Who are we going to put our trust in for safety? Job was not in safety yet some believe he was not doing anything wrong. How can God protect us and at the same time allow our families to be killed? Is God's Kingdom divided?

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

God, does not allow or cause these kinds of things to happen to, us. He is our protector. They will come, but God does not allow them.

Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Either God keeps us in safety while we are trusting in him, or he can not be trusted, and anything goes. If Job did not do anything wrong, then why would God allow Satan to do these things to him and his family? If God allowed these things, then it goes completely against all other scriptures that tells us the opposite.
Did not Jesus tell his Church to pray that you enter not into temptation? Why pray for something to not happen if it's going to happen anyway?

Trials and tribulations will come to those who are godly.

God allows a lot to happen to His people for purposes of training and maturing. The book of Job is about the faithfulness of Job and the awesomeness of God. The Lord knew Job would be a perfect example of faithfulness down through the ages and wrote a book on him for our benefit. God did not lift the hedge because of sin in Job's life, He lifted it to prove to satan that He had a man who was faithful and had a fear of the Lord. The Lord does the same for us. He knows what we will do in the times of temptation and adversity, but He wants us to see our own selves and our own hearts. He allows adversity, suffering and tribulation in our lives and has a purpose for it all. In Job's case, the Lord proved to satan that He had a faithful man. God also brought Job into a deeper relationship with Him so he could see that God is more awesome and wise then he had ever considered.

Chastening, sufferings or son training has a purpose. It is to destroy the influence of temptations to the flesh. This is accomplished in our Father’s ability to control the route we travel in this world. This route is designed to teach us to endure hardness. It is not infested with trials due to sin. All who are righteous will have to walk a way that will take them through suffering in the flesh.

Hebrews 12:5-10 5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

2 Timothy 3:10-12 (KJV)
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me 8 at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

wikipedia....suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution.

The Lord WILL allow us to be afflicted and placed in situations, circumstances and relationships that are wrought with much suffering > for our training and strengthening.
Job came out of the entire ordeal with a deeper knowledge and revelation of who God was and a greater fear of the Lord. He passed the test! In the end he was strengthened and of even greater worth to the Lord than before the ordeal.
 
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If God allowed these things, then it goes completely against all other scriptures that tells us the opposite.
I do not agree. The Word of God is chuck full with admonitions to suffer in the flesh, crucify the flesh, endure the chastening of the Lord and the pruning of the Lord's vine.

Jesus said that His Father prunes His children. The richest, fullest, most fruitful lives are those that have been strengthened through the painful process of tribulation. We have no right to think God will use us until He cuts away whatever may hinder our growth. What we see as tragedies may be only blessings in disguise, and the very opportunities through which God chooses to exhibit His love and grace. Has the dearest in life been torn from you? Have all your dreams faded? Remember that if you could see these problems from the standpoint of God’s wisdom and of eternity, you would be able to dry your eyes and praise the Lord for all of these. God will not withhold any good thing “from those who walk uprightly” (Psalm 84:11). Even in your painful situation, you can trust Him to do what is best.
 
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This is the key, right here: "In all this, Job did not sin...".
And this is the bottom line for us all. No matter the suffering or situations the Lord allows us to go through, we must endure and not sin. We cannot get offended by the sufferings or tribulations or tests. We must glorify God and trust Him through them all. :)
 
I do not agree. The Word of God is chuck full with admonitions to suffer in the flesh, crucify the flesh, endure the chastening of the Lord and the pruning of the Lord's vine.

Jesus said that His Father prunes His children. The richest, fullest, most fruitful lives are those that have been strengthened through the painful process of tribulation. We have no right to think God will use us until He cuts away whatever may hinder our growth. What we see as tragedies may be only blessings in disguise, and the very opportunities through which God chooses to exhibit His love and grace. Has the dearest in life been torn from you? Have all your dreams faded? Remember that if you could see these problems from the standpoint of God’s wisdom and of eternity, you would be able to dry your eyes and praise the Lord for all of these. God will not withhold any good thing “from those who walk uprightly” (Psalm 84:11). Even in your painful situation, you can trust Him to do what is best.

Those who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, not calamity and death of their family.
 
Trials and tribulations will come to those who are godly.

God allows a lot to happen to His people for purposes of training and maturing. The book of Job is about the faithfulness of Job and the awesomeness of God. The Lord knew Job would be a perfect example of faithfulness down through the ages and wrote a book on him for our benefit. God did not lift the hedge because of sin in Job's life, He lifted it to prove to satan that He had a man who was faithful and had a fear of the Lord. The Lord does the same for us. He knows what we will do in the times of temptation and adversity, but He wants us to see our own selves and our own hearts. He allows adversity, suffering and tribulation in our lives and has a purpose for it all. In Job's case, the Lord proved to satan that He had a faithful man. God also brought Job into a deeper relationship with Him so he could see that God is more awesome and wise then he had ever considered.

Chastening, sufferings or son training has a purpose. It is to destroy the influence of temptations to the flesh. This is accomplished in our Father’s ability to control the route we travel in this world. This route is designed to teach us to endure hardness. It is not infested with trials due to sin. All who are righteous will have to walk a way that will take them through suffering in the flesh.

Hebrews 12:5-10 5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

2 Timothy 3:10-12 (KJV)
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me 8 at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

wikipedia....suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution.

The Lord WILL allow us to be afflicted and placed in situations, circumstances and relationships that are wrought with much suffering > for our training and strengthening.
Job came out of the entire ordeal with a deeper knowledge and revelation of who God was and a greater fear of the Lord. He passed the test! In the end he was strengthened and of even greater worth to the Lord than before the ordeal.
Are you trying to tell me God uses calamity, and death to teach us?
I was always under the impression God uses his Word to do that.
 
And this is the bottom line for us all. No matter the suffering or situations the Lord allows us to go through, we must endure and not sin. We cannot get offended by the sufferings or tribulations or tests. We must glorify God and trust Him through them all. :)

But that is impossible!

We will sin because we are sinners. That is what the Bible says.

To say that we ....."must endure and not sin" is against Scripture after Scripture and speaks to the agenda of "Sinless Perfection" which is not Biblical in any way what so ever..
 
Those who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, not calamity and death of their family.

Not so my brother. People who live for Christ get cancer just as do the unsaved.

I just buried my mother 2 months ago. She was a wonderful Godly woman and suffered greatly for the last 3 months of her life and she prayed all the time for God to heal her. He did not!!!!! He did however prepare a home for her in His house and that is where she went at death.

Death comes upon all people regardless of or relationship with God. That is a fact of reality.
 
Are you trying to tell me God uses calamity, and death to teach us?
I was always under the impression God uses his Word to do that.

The Bible says in Isaiah 46:9-10 that............
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. ”.

Ephesians 1:12 tells us that God...........
“works all things according to the counsel of His will”.

Psalms 115:3 says that........
“our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.”

My dear brother, this is important to see because we must understand that bad things do not happen apart from God’s control and pain, suffering and yes death does come upon God's people.

You see, God was not sitting in heaven chewing on His fingernails because He couldn’t do anything to prevent the 2004 tsunami that killed over 200,000 people. He wasn’t sleeping or caught off-guard when the federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed nor when terrorists did their evil work on 9/11/2001. Thousands upon thousands of God's people suffered and died. We can not just "spiritualize or rationalize" that away just to satisfy a doctrine.

God has always been and always will be in absolute control of everything. But this does not mean that God likes everything that happens in and of itself. For example, He hates all sin and evil, and He Himself cannot even be tempted to sin nor does He ever tempt anyone else to sin (James 1:13). And He will hold the sinner responsible for their sin. Nevertheless, He still allows people to do even the most horrible things because He has some good purpose for it in His eternal plan.

In Isaiah 45:7, God says..........
“I make peace and create calamity”.

Amos 3:6 says..........
“When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?”

In Deuteronomy 32:39, God says.......
“I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: nor is there any who can deliver from My hand”.
 
This is the key, right here: "In all this, Job did not sin...".

FCJ, if you have to keep saying "I'm not attacking you" just to keep from being reported, you might consider just not attacking so you won't need to keep posting that disclaimer. When you call someone clueless, it's an attack, whether you claim to be joking or "that's just how I write" or not. You could leave personal attacks out of it and it wouldn't affect your argument; that's one part of how ad hominem is defined.

No actually I do it with you because you get bent to easy and I try to make it simple for you to understand. I have yet to write anything that needs to be reported. So could you please explain thisto me, I mean your reply...
 
Those who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, not calamity and death of their family.
I still do not agree. God WILL and does allow calamity and deaths of loved ones in our lives, just as He did with Job. He even orchestrated and set in motion the death of His own Son. It is important to embrace our Lord totally as the Lord of Lords over all, even your own life and believe the Word that all things work together for your ultimate good.
 
Are you trying to tell me God uses calamity, and death to teach us?
I was always under the impression God uses his Word to do that.

He will use calamity and death to teach us, if need be. And yes, He also uses His Word to teach us and the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us. The Spirit also is our comforter when we need comfort and peace to go through adversity and trials.
 
I still do not agree. God WILL and does allow calamity and deaths of loved ones in our lives, just as He did with Job. He even orchestrated and set in motion the death of His own Son. It is important to embrace our Lord totally as the Lord of Lords over all, even your own life and believe the Word that all things work together for your ultimate good.
Oh now come on, If you think that all things that happen in your life work for good for your ultimate good....
 
He will use calamity and death to teach us, if need be. And yes, He also uses His Word to teach us and the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us. The Spirit also is our comforter when we need comfort and peace to go through adversity and trials.
So show me where God said I will use calamity and death to teach us. If need be does not apply.
 
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