Unanswered Prayers

Relentless said:
Absolutely. But the claim has been made repeatedly in this thread that Job had to have sinned, even if it means turning the results of the calamities into the causes. Never mind the explicit statement from God about Job's innocence; that's apparently a proof-text, a theology built from a single verse. And the motivation is to claim, in spite of what God said about Job, that everyone who suffers is guilty of some hidden sin. The theology drives the exegesis, which is backwards.
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Right. It comes back to philosophies of men/doctrines of men.
The truth of the matter is Job suffered because he was holy and had not sinned. It was because of Job's sinlessness and faithfulness that God chose Him for the challenge with Satan. Much of the church does not understand 'suffering' from God's perspective. (has not been taught the truth but has been taught doctrines of men)

..you are right....what is believed and taught is all backwards.
 
Leemg said:
Right. It comes back to philosophies of men/doctrines of men.
The truth of the matter is Job suffered because he was holy and had not sinned. It was because of Job's sinlessness and faithfulness that God chose Him for the challenge with Satan. Much of the church does not understand 'suffering' from God's perspective. (has not been taught the truth but has been taught doctrines of men)

..you are right....what is believed and taught is all backwards.
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Among the many doctrines of the Bible, the doctrine of suffering is the most unaccepted, although it is the most ever-present one of them all. Jesus made mention of suffering being ordained as a requirement of the citizens in the Kingdom of God.
St. Luke 14:26-27
26 If any man come to me, and hate not (to love less) his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

The cross is the symbol of suffering and passion. But Jesus insists that without exposure to suffering experiences we cannot be His disciples. He was quite clear on this.
 
@Relentless and EVERYONE

This topic of Job has sparked an interest in me and I have spent from the time I woke up this morning until 8 pm digging and reading and researching this dilemma we find our selves in over the book of Job. Here is what I have found..

First I write a small out line of what is in question and then quote scripture that show what i am saying. Please follow through this and see for your self.
The first thing we learn about Job is the Blessing of God was working in his life. We have all agreed on this point. We know Job was wealthy in finances and live stock and spiritually. Job lived by faith in the blessing of God and then his children grew up.

Once his children grew up he began to fret and worry every time his children got together and had a party. He worried in fear that his children were sinning against God.

Job developed such a terror about this that every time one of them had a party or get together, well Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: FOR JOB SAID, it may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. (job1:5)


We see in Job1:5 that he was obsessed with the fact his children might have cursed God and sinned against God.

We see in .....that the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me......I was not in safety.....neither had I rest......neither was I quiet.....yet trouble came.....

I broke these two scriptures down this way so as to make it easier to see.

1. the thing which I greatly feared has come upon me.....
Job stepped out of walking by Faith in God and stepped into walking into fear of his children sinning against God and cursing God.

2. I was not in safety.........
This is saying that Job was not walking in Faith of God and under the blessing of God...Once you step out into fear..you have left out from under the blessing....his fear over his children sinning against God was bigger in his thinking then his remembering of Gods protection of the blessing.

3. Neither had I rest.........
Why did Job say he had no rest ? Easy he was to busy worrying about his children.....he was up all night worrying.....he had lost his peace in God, once he stepped out into fear and doubt.

4. Neither was I quiet......Job ran his mouth...speaking words of fear and doubt and worry.....remember he has stepped out of the safety place of God and His blessing. See every one of us falls right into this every time we allow our words to speak anything other then the word of God or another words faith filled words.

5. yet trouble came..... job thought he was doing right by his family by worrying and thought he was being responsible and this happens to many believers.

Ok Next is the conversation between God and satin.....

First a few points....all the devil knew was this man had the blessing over him and the devil described it as a hedge of protection. The devil wanted Job all along to curse God and that is why he even had an interest in Job.

Now lets look at two verses here.

Doth Job fear God for nought? Has not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all he hath on every side? Thou has blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. BUT put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath and he will CURSE you to thy face.

And the Lord said unto satin, Behold all that he hath is in thy power: only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So satin went froth from the presence of the Lord.

We can see two things .
1..the devil had wanted Job to curse God from the beginning.
........This is why Job was speaking in all that fear about his children sinning and cursing God...That is how our enemy works,,,,he has to get us to speak out against what the word of God says... Then he has the right to enter into the situation.....even jobs wife eventually sided with satin and told Job to just give up and cures God.( job2:9 ) ...Man that is easy to see where she got that idea from..........However in all Job did say, He never cursed God. THATS WHY WE READ.....In ALL this did not Job sin with his lips. ( )

2....The second thing we learn here in these two verses is this.....
God did not tell the devil, "Here I put Job into your hands and you do what ever you want".
The devil was poorly mistaken to even suggest such a thing because God was in no way going to stretch out His hand against Job. God NEVER agreed with satin to what satin suggested.

HOWEVER GOD DID SAY THIS......"BEHOLD he is already in your hand"
We don't use the word Behold much at all these days. I mean when was the last time you heard some one say BEHOLD is not this car beautiful ?

Now if you look up this word "Behold" in any of the translations such as Hebrew or Greek or English or Spanish or any other translation...YOU WILL LEARN that it ALWAYS MEANS " Look and see. Wake up and pay attention"

See God was telling satin that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given sating the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt. HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....spare his life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...

The once satin finally grasped that Job had stepped out of or lost the blessing this protective hedge...well you know the story....satin with after job with vengeance.

Then Job ran his mouth complaining about everything but still NEVER CURSED GOD......Funny how this story ends.....God sends a preacher to preach some sense back into job.......AND once Job repented of his errors...God restored the blessing back and Job increased in all.

I hope this helps some of you understand what many have been trying to show you...
Have thee most blessed and wonderful week end
Jim
 
Relentless said:
Excellent points, JohnC. And this is the issue I have with "name it and claim it", as if we can command God to do our bidding. But the examples you gave show that we are arranged in the Body as God sees fit, and if we were all one part there would be no Body (1 Cor. 12:17-20). We are meant to work together as one Body. And to demand more spiritual gifts seems to me ingratitude for the ones we already have. But sometimes that wish for more comes from a false sense of guilt instilled by those who tell us that we only lack certain gifts because of some fault in us.
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First of all you know nothing of this.....so called name it and claim it.
I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU ...
This name it and claim it stuff was started by some pastors who do NOT believe in the entire word of God. Too many churches are this way and this is why some say healing is not for today or God does not raise the dead today and so forth...Then the carnal minded caught wind and so did the media and non saved.....

Relentless.....How many times in the written word of God does Jesus say....you must believe in what you pray....or believe in what you say will come true? You can not believe for something BY FAITH and speak words of lack and doubt and so forth.....If you pray that you will go back to work and speak craplike there just aint no jobs or I doubt I will ever find a job and so forth....YOU just spoke against your prayers, against faith....You limit what God can do.

Now I am not going to get into it here for it is clear you have no real understanding of this or you would not join in with the lost misguided people who have twisted this all out of perportion. It is easy to see who is behind this slander....Why of course its our enemy the devil who comes to kill and destroy and steel....Gee wiz let me get the Church fighting against this and no one will use the power of words and live in lack....oh boo hoo hoo...
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
@Relentless and EVERYONE

See God was telling satin that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given sating the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt.
Jim
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Sorry, but you have formed personal interpretations about Job, Satan and God that are not supported by scripture. You have read into scripture what you 'think' God meant and also surmise that Job already tore down the hedge. This is personal opinion and not what the Word says.

What does God say? (that's the bottom line!!)
Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
 
Leemg said:
Sorry, but you have formed personal interpretations about Job, Satan and God that are not supported by scripture. You have read into scripture what you 'think' God meant and also surmise that Job already tore down the hedge. This is personal opinion and not what the Word says.

What does God say? (that's the bottom line!!)
Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
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If this is what you believe so be it, the word of God does not return void.....prove what i said wrong instead of just saying you are wrong....Hugs !
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
If this is what you believe so be it, the word of God does not return void.....prove what i said wrong instead of just saying you are wrong....Hugs !
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I just believe what God actually says and that is that Job was perfect, blameless and upright... in HIS EYES. In addition, you as well as many base everything on 'fear' when if you really study the book of Job you find that it is not teaching about fear. Many make the mistake you have and take one statement from Job and build an entire theory saying Job suffered all the calamities because of fear. The book of Job is about the faithfulness of Job and the awesomeness of God. Job is shown to be innocent and blameless from the beginning from the mouth of God. Whatever 'man' thinks of Job (even inside of his concern for his children), God saw him as blameless and faithful.
 
@Leemg Hello,
I thank you for sharing your beliefs. Ok God did say that, and I even mentioned this in the first part of my post.......However things changed for Job once his children grew up...
Job changed.....Fear is the killer of faith.....any time any one gets out side of faith and into fear they are in a unprotected area where the enemy (satin) has rigth to interfear into the situation and if you do not get back in faith and kick the devil out he (satin) has right to the rest of your life.

You are taking something God said about Job and using it as the entire answer to everything. That can not be done...Any way.....please show me where what i wrote is wrong...I respect what you believe, I really do, but you said I was wrong and I asked you to please show me.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
@Relentless and EVERYONE

This topic of Job has sparked an interest in me and I have spent from the time I woke up this morning until 8 pm digging and reading and researching this dilemma we find our selves in over the book of Job. Here is what I have found..

First I write a small out line of what is in question and then quote scripture that show what i am saying. Please follow through this and see for your self.
The first thing we learn about Job is the Blessing of God was working in his life. We have all agreed on this point. We know Job was wealthy in finances and live stock and spiritually. Job lived by faith in the blessing of God and then his children grew up.

Once his children grew up he began to fret and worry every time his children got together and had a party. He worried in fear that his children were sinning against God.
<<SNIP>>

I hope this helps some of you understand what many have been trying to show you...
Have thee most blessed and wonderful week end
Jim
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To be totally honest, your post is way toooo long.
So I will point out something based on the earlier part of your post. You posted....
"Once his children grew up he began to fret and worry every time his children got together and had a party. He worried in fear that his children were sinning against God."
You need to be careful about where you want to run with this...careful where you want to lead others too.

Today, we don't do sacrifices.. burnt offerings and blood sprinkling and the like.
But we do, or perhaps I ought to say we should engage with the Lord in intercessory prayer.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

I suggest that for Job to offer intercessory sacrifices for his sons, is in essence no different from someone offering up intercessory prayer today. Fear is being misused greatly here in this thread. IMNSHO
The idea that cursing God will bring death is testified to by Job's wife when she suggested he curse God and die.....anybody know a good divorce layer?:D
Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die."
Anyway the point is that Job was blameless and upright before the Lord. It is probably significant that the info of Job's intercessory ministry comes immediately before the Lord points out Job's virtue to Satan.
I believe much false understanding is being fueled by a wrong understanding of the word fear as it is used in context.
Job 1:22. In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (what has gone before.)
We are either going to believe the word of God or we are not.
 
calvin said:
To be totally honest, your post is way toooo long.
So I will point out something based on the earlier part of your post. You posted....
"Once his children grew up he began to fret and worry every time his children got together and had a party. He worried in fear that his children were sinning against God."
You need to be careful about where you want to run with this...careful where you want to lead others too.

Today, we don't do sacrifices.. burnt offerings and blood sprinkling and the like.
But we do, or perhaps I ought to say we should engage with the Lord in intercessory prayer.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

I suggest that for Job to offer intercessory sacrifices for his sons, is in essence no different from someone offering up intercessory prayer today. Fear is being misused greatly here in this thread. IMNSHO
The idea that cursing God will bring death is testified to by Job's wife when she suggested he curse God and die.....anybody know a good divorce layer?:D
Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die."
Anyway the point is that Job was blameless and upright before the Lord. It is probably significant that the info of Job's intercessory ministry comes immediately before the Lord points out Job's virtue to Satan.
I believe much false understanding is being fueled by a wrong understanding of the word fear as it is used in context.
Job 1:22. In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (what has gone before.)
We are either going to believe the word of God or we are not.
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You say to long huh. Too funny how you make all this out of just reading a part of something.
To me it seems that you felt I was out to lunch and refused to read any farther and that is ok.

You mention intercessory prayer and that is always a good thing BUT that is in no way what Job truly did. He operated out of FEAR and a true intercessory prayer is based on faith and the word. Your scripture of Job 1:22 is refering to the fact that Job never cursed God.
If you would have read my entire post which is no longer then some of yours silly.
You could have seen a few things that you are over looking.

Well all I can ask is that you try to lay down your points on things now and again and see if there is something that perhaps you are missing or the Lord might want to show you in all the threads you participate in. I am not trying to make you wrong. I used to see this (JOB) just as you do now and eventually, the Lord open my eyes to this.

Any way it always exciting to debate with you and I hope the fact that we do not always see eye to eye will not keep you from posting and or debating with me. I am always ready to learn. When a person thinks they know it all, they are only fooling them selves for if you could live a million life times you could not ever learn all that God has for us. The more you renew your mind in the word of God the more he will reveal to you or give you new revelations in His word...
Take care and have a very blessed week end with your family
Jim
 
calvin said:
Job 1:22. In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (what has gone before.)
We are either going to believe the word of God or we are not.
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This is the key, right here: "In all this, Job did not sin...".

FCJ, if you have to keep saying "I'm not attacking you" just to keep from being reported, you might consider just not attacking so you won't need to keep posting that disclaimer. When you call someone clueless, it's an attack, whether you claim to be joking or "that's just how I write" or not. You could leave personal attacks out of it and it wouldn't affect your argument; that's one part of how ad hominem is defined.
 
Staff Edit
Quotation removed as the context is inaccurate.

Actually that is what you are doing with this fear issue. You have taken Job's concern for his children and are saying that God misspoke. Even though the Lord said Job was blameless and even went on to say that Job hated evil, you still find evil in Job and give satan access to him because of this so-called failing on Job's part. This is opinion and not supported by scripture.

The Lord says Job was blameless and hated evil. In God's eyes, whatever Job was doing as concerning his children was obviously acceptable onto God and without any blame.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

So the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil."
 
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God allowed Satan access to Job. Satan had no access to Job for any REASON before God lifted the hedge. Satan had no access before Chapter 2. Obviously Job's concern for his children did not lift the hedge of protection or cause any supposed judgement upon any supposed sin of Job. Satan had no access to Job's family or property etc. until God gave him access.
 
If we can not trust in the Word of God when it says, "Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. "
Who are we going to put our trust in for safety? Job was not in safety yet some believe he was not doing anything wrong. How can God protect us and at the same time allow our families to be killed? Is God's Kingdom divided?

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

God, does not allow or cause these kinds of things to happen to, us. He is our protector. They will come, but God does not allow them.

Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Either God keeps us in safety while we are trusting in him, or he can not be trusted, and anything goes. If Job did not do anything wrong, then why would God allow Satan to do these things to him and his family? If God allowed these things, then it goes completely against all other scriptures that tells us the opposite.
Did not Jesus tell his Church to pray that you enter not into temptation? Why pray for something to not happen if it's going to happen anyway?
 
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Relentless said:
Exactly. So the calamities had nothing to do with any sin that Job committed. If you read back through the thread, you'll see the argument made that all suffering is due to sin, such that if we are not healed then it must be some hidden sin in us. But the story of Job proves that wrong, since God called Job upright before then.
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Excellent point!
 
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