CA Gov signs Right to Die bill...

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Ok sir this is where we begin to see things differently............ ;)
You say if your child was killed you are assured it was the Lord Purpose...........
This is where this conversations ends and begins............

How do you base this thinking ? What scripture would you use to back this thinking?
Not everything that happens is Gods will or doing.........
Jim
Dear brother... I can't possibly agree with the idea that anything is outside of divine control. It's right that much that occurs is not God's will, and isn't from His hand, but He permits it all the same. The devil is allowed certain scope of operate at the moment - there'll come a time when he'll be dealt with and his activities will be decisively ended. We mustn't forget that God is all-powerful and His hand is over the believer - nothing happens to a believer which God hasn't allowed. That's not to suggest for a moment that God is in any way complicit with evil, absolutely not. But, as we see in the case of Job, the devil is sometimes allowed some scope, but the end result will be for God's glory and the blessing of those who love Him.

Quite apart from that, if a believer is taken to be with the Lord, there's no question that it's entirely His purpose.
 
It should be noted that in Matthew 10:7-8, the Lord is addressing the twelve disciples. I don't think we can make this the basis for a general principle. It's also worth noting that the phrase "raise the dead" has been inserted into the text by the translators - no doubt accurately.


I don't want to be controversial, and I'm wary of stirring up an interminable debate. I'll answer your question though, dear brother, as best I can.

The times we live in now are not the same as those which prevailed at the beginning of the dispensation (or 'era' if some brethren prefer). Then, the Church was in outward display in unity and power. To use a simple illustration, if I were a believer in Corinth, or Ephesus, or Galatia, I would gather with every other believer in the city - the Church was in evidence. The apostle Paul could write to the Church in a place and the epistle would be delivered to the Church in that place - not a particular building, but the full complement of believers in that place. Today, if someone was to write to the Church in - say - New York, or Amsterdam, or Moscow, the messenger would ask, "Which church do you mean?". Outwardly, there's breakdown. Believers are scattered among man-made churches, or independent companies. There is no outward display of the one Church, in unity and power. That's not to say, and we must be clear about this, that divine power is diminished in any way, or that the thought of the one Church has been given up by God. Far be the thought - it could never be so. But the testimony as to there being one Church has largely been given up - many believers have turned to denominationalism or independency, both of which are equally incompatible with the truth of the one Church, the one Body. In these conditions, there aren't outward demonstrations of power for all the world to see. You might say that the Church is hidden at the moment. Is the world presently aware of there being one Church, united, powerful? It was at the beginning. It caused a great stir in the Roman world and beyond! But, is the world aware of it now? No. The worldly person doesn't believe for a moment that there's a single, unified Church. That fact is obscured, hidden from the eyes of the world - and with it, the works of power that bore witness to a Church in the world. The scripture tells us that sign gifts, such as tongues, are for unbelievers. "So that tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe." (1 Corinthians 14:22). One might say that the time for demonstration in the sight of the world is passed, and the time of secret upbuilding is here - and that is where power is seen, felt and experienced by believers. We can trace this in the addresses to the seven Churches in Revelation 2-3. There is a word to "him that overcomes". The overcomer isn't seen in a blaze of power and glory in the world. No, the overcomer finds a hidden resource in the middle of the confusion and decline of Christendom. I don't believe that God is working in the way that He did in the early Church in terms of evident miracles attesting to the presence of the Church in the sight of the world - that's evident from the addresses to the seven Churches, and we can see the difference in conditions between Paul's first and second epistles to Timothy. But I don't for a moment believe that there has been any curtailing of power. There is infinite power and resource available to the overcomer in an evil day. "He that overcomes", and the context in which this kind of person is mentioned show us that there's much to be overcome. Obstacles, tests and trials aren't removed - they're overcome. Grace is given to meet them. The thorn in Paul's flesh wasn't taken from him, but he was given grace to bear it. That is a word for the times in which we live. As for myself, signs and wonders don't follow me, but I have a very distinct sense of the immensity of divine power. It couldn't be further from the truth to say that God is not doing anything now. His power is real and operational, and particularly suited to the time in which we are, and the conditions in which we are. The Lord didn't convey one address to seven different assemblies - He had a word for each. In that way, God has brought it what is needed at each stage of the history of the Church.

As an aside, we mustn't think that the healing of the bodies of believers is a general principle on which God operates. Paul's thorn (2 Corinthians 2:17) has already been mentioned. A brother recently referred on this forum to Timothy's stomach troubles and frequent illness, which Paul advised should be medicated with a little wine (1 Timothy 5:23) - the medicine of the day. Trophimus was left behind in Miletus sick (2 Timothy 4:20). Were Paul, Timothy and Trophimus insufficiently imbued with divine power to heal one another? Could others not have laid hands on them and healed them? These facts, recorded for us on the page of scripture, show that bodily healing is not a general principle. Healing, along with other signs, was a display of divine power and confirmed the divine authority of those who displayed it. It wasn't simply to relieve believers of discomfort, although the mercy and love of God is no doubt in it for those who got relief. I'm sure that there were many more believers sick in those days than were miraculously healed, as there are these days as well. How comforting it is that "we know that to them that love God all things work together for good" (Romans 8:28). "All things" would include illness, loss of loved ones, trials and painful exercises of all kinds. We learn the heart of God in whole new ways when we pass through these things. We learn the greatness of His love, the vastness of His wisdom, the sovereignty of His purpose, the power of His arm. Precious metals are extracted from the ore and separated from the dross in the heat of the furnace, and we all need something of the furnace heat for God to bring to fruition what He has in mind for us.

Jesus is speaking to you and me. Your wriggling out of it by claiming He was strictly speaking to others as well as claiming tampering with His words is typical of unbelief at work.
 
In my opinion and what i have given by the Holy Spirit from the Bible....is that suffering refers to resisting the desires of the flesh and worldly ways. Resisting to submit to the things that Jesus died to redeem us from.

God Bless
I can only speak from my own experience, but I wouldn't associate suffering with resisting fleshly desires and the things of the world. It might be difficult to give these things up, but the more I'm occupied with Christ, the less value those things seem to have. They become worthless to me, and I'm glad to give them up. Thanks be to God that some things which used to be so important to me, now I don't see any value in at all.

Paul certainly suffered. He was imprisoned, beaten and scourged. He suffered in his body, but it was nothing compared with what he was occupied with in terms of heavenly things. And in due time, he was given a measure of relief, the Philippian jailer took him and Silas and "washed them from their stripes" (Acts 16:33). What Paul went through for the testimony! What believers are enduring now by way of persecution... unspeakable things. Yet, they're sustained through it all.
 
There are many Christians that have died of sickness, and diseases, because they did not know or believe, or they knew but refused to believe what Jesus Christ did for them on the cross for his Church. Are these people lost?
Paul tells us that if we do not "discern" when partaking of "communion", the body, and blood of Christ in his taking our sickness, and pain on his own body on the cross will suffer sickness and death prematurely in this life.

1Co 11:28.. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29.. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30.. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
 
Jesus is speaking to you and me. Your wriggling out of it by claiming He was strictly speaking to others as well as claiming tampering with His words is typical of unbelief at work.
I feel it's important for us to look at the incidents related in scripture in their context - if we look at Matthew 10, we see that here the Lord is sending the disciples out on what's often referred to as the "narrow commission" to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We couldn't apply that to us, could we? The Lord had a particular commission for those particular twelve men, and they were given power which was to come out in a demonstration suited to that commission.
 
Dear brother... I can't possibly agree with the idea that anything is outside of divine control. It's right that much that occurs is not God's will, and isn't from His hand, but He permits it all the same. The devil is allowed certain scope of operate at the moment - there'll come a time when he'll be dealt with and his activities will be decisively ended. We mustn't forget that God is all-powerful and His hand is over the believer - nothing happens to a believer which God hasn't allowed. That's not to suggest for a moment that God is in any way complicit with evil, absolutely not. But, as we see in the case of Job, the devil is sometimes allowed some scope, but the end result will be for God's glory and the blessing of those who love Him.

Quite apart from that, if a believer is taken to be with the Lord, there's no question that it's entirely His purpose.
Even Christians (including children) die outside of God's will.
 
I feel it's important for us to look at the incidents related in scripture in their context - if we look at Matthew 10, we see that here the Lord is sending the disciples out on what's often referred to as the "narrow commission" to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We couldn't apply that to us, could we? The Lord had a particular commission for those particular twelve men, and they were given power which was to come out in a demonstration suited to that commission.
He sends you and me as His disciples the same way and with the same mandate. No difference.
 
You don't think that sufferings are referred to, included in the "all things"? Paul begins the section, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us." (v 18). I firmly believe that whatever happens to me, joyful or sorrowful, works together for good for me. If I have to go through painful exercise, it's for my good. If I have relief from something, I thank God for it. Either way, He is working in me to bring about what is for my blessing. In my life I've often come under divine discipline, and I've had to go through some bitter soul exercises. The assurance of this scripture has become very precious me: "But no chastening at the time seems to be matter of joy, but of grief; but afterwards yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those exercised by it." (Hebrews 12:11). It's the love of God that causes Him to discipline His children, and He has nothing but blessing in mind for us.
All things work together for the good of those who Love God and are called according to His purpose.
Now if you say sickness and bad things are what he is talking about in all things it would read.

Now sickness and evil work together for the good of those who Love God and are called according to His purpose.

So with that said.........No sir I do not beleive.

God does discipline us correct..........He does this through His word.........Is sickness a part of His word ? Is disdaster a part of His word ? No sir it is not so that old religious saying - well I guess God is trying to teach me soemthing or God wants to humble me through this sickness is garbage !!
Blessings
Jim
 
There are many Christians that have died of sickness, and diseases, because they did not know or believe, or they knew but refused to believe what Jesus Christ did for them on the cross for his Church. Are these people lost?
Paul tells us that if we do not "discern" when partaking of "communion", the body, and blood of Christ in his taking our sickness, and pain on his own body on the cross will suffer sickness and death prematurely in this life.

1Co 11:28.. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29.. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30.. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

A more accurate translation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". The thought here isn't of physical decline, but spiritual. Paul uses an analogy to describe the spiritually poor state of many of the Corinthians. There was weakness and infirmity, and many were slumbering spiritually, not distinguishing the body of Christ in the Supper, and everything that that entails. They approached it in a carnal way, as we see earlier in the chapter. The result was spiritual and moral decline.
 
My Mother passed away three years ago in her own home while under the care of "hospice". Her body had just warn out, and there was nothing medical science could do to help her except giving her "morphine" to kill her pain. She only had a partial use of her heart, and was in constant pain all the time, and if we tried to move her even just a little she would scream out in pain even while on heavy does of pain medication. My mother had "0" quality of life, and could not move at all without being in agony. She was not brain dead, or hook up to any tubes. Hospice is not just making those who are dying comfortable, but also with holding food, and water so that they would pass away in no pain. They do not called it assisted suicide but it really is. It is easy to stand opposed to this position while one is still young, but go to some of these places and see the pain these people are going through. You would change your mind, and you would ask God for mercy upon them to deliver them from their body of death.

Curtas Hello,
Your reply covers many different area's and can not be combind as one.
Yes praying for mercy and ending the pain.
Helping some one die by the hands of man - NO !!

Yes brother been there. I know what you are talking about. However this is not the same as the topic.
God Bless
Jim
 
Even Christians (including children) die outside of God's will.
How could that possibly be, if the believer falls asleep in Christ, and is taken to be with the Lord? What a blessed release, no matter what the circumstances are! Paul could say "to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21). I believe that Paul was eventually beheaded, but the circumstances of his death wouldn't have altered his peaceful conviction that to go to be with Christ "is very much better" (Philippians 1:23).
 
A more accurate translation of 1 Corinthians 11:30 is "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". The thought here isn't of physical decline, but spiritual. Paul uses an analogy to describe the spiritually poor state of many of the Corinthians. There was weakness and infirmity, and many were slumbering spiritually, not distinguishing the body of Christ in the Supper, and everything that that entails. They approached it in a carnal way, as we see earlier in the chapter. The result was spiritual and moral decline.

Brother is not "falling asleep" considered death? Did Lazarus die or just fall asleep? Can a Christian die spiritually when Jesus Christ is their new life? Can Christ in you ever die? He is our life, which is why we have eternal life.
 
All things work together for the good of those who Love God and are called according to His purpose.
Now if you say sickness and bad things are what he is talking about in all things it would read.

Now sickness and evil work together for the good of those who Love God and are called according to His purpose.

So with that said.........No sir I do not beleive.

God does discipline us correct..........He does this through His word.........Is sickness a part of His word ? Is disdaster a part of His word ? No sir it is not so that old religious saying - well I guess God is trying to teach me soemthing or God wants to humble me through this sickness is garbage !!
Blessings
Jim
"All things" is an all-encompassing term - it gives me the blessed assurance that whatever happens, God's hand is over me and He'll sustain me through it, and bless me in it if I trust in Him. I can face what comes with cheerfulness if I'm in the good of that truth - I know that God is over all.

We have it in scripture that Paul had a physical weakness, a thorn in his flesh, which was to humble him. Paul could take pleasure in all kinds of suffering: "Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ: for when I am weak, then I am powerful." (2 Corinthians 12:10). When natural resources failed, divine ones came into evidence, and Paul rejoiced in that.
 
t Paul had a physical weakness, a thorn in his flesh,
Pauls "thorn" was not a sickness, but a "messenger of Satan", a evil spirit that caused trouble for Paul every where he went by stirring up the crowds to cause him harm.

2Co 12:7.. So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. (ESV)
 
Brother is not "falling asleep" considered death? Did Lazarus die or just fall asleep? Can a Christian die spiritually when Jesus Christ is their new life? Can Christ in you ever die? He is our life, which is why we have eternal life.
Yes, quite so. The term does mean death, as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:18, where it's translated that way. One can get into a state of moral and spiritual decline, even to the point of death - just look what was going on amongst the Corinthians! They were believers, but some were showing no signs of spiritual life. But there's power to recover persons - we see that in Paul's restoration of the youth who fell from the window. One who is displaying no spiritual life can be recovered and restored to their place in fellowship and the enjoyment of divine things. Of course, this is referring to the state of a believer, rather than their standing as "in Christ". The standing is unshakeable and unchangeable - Paul still addresses the Corinthians as "saints", because they were so. But their state was very poor, they needed to be recovered, and Paul does that in his first epistle.
 
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