Back to the Law?

Ben Avraham, if I may, I would like to reiterate what I had said at the outset of this thread:

The understanding that we are no longer bound to trying to live any part of the law does not lead only to the conclusion that we are then free to go out and rob, kill, worship idols, etc. That is an extreme to which some in the Hebrew Roots movement introduce into discussions like this that simply don't align with their beliefs. The law of Moses didn't exist with Abraham, Abel, Noah, et al before he penned them. Yes, there was law before Moses wrote them, but to assume Abraham was under the same exact ordinances as were written by Moses is an argument from silence that some have attempted to assume into a basis of fact.

[Gal 5:1-4] 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (the law of Moses). 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

A couple of the HR people tried to put forth a contextual limitation by claiming that Paul was only talking about circumcision, not the law of Moses. Frankly, that's an unfair and dishonest limitation to the scope of the context. For support, I will direct the reader's attention to Acts 15:

[Act 15:5, 7, 9-10] 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. ... 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. ... 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The dancing about those brothers did with this one staggering. They were adamant that Paul was only referring to the added elements to the law of Moses, not the law of Moses itself, such as the Mishnah. Again, that was yet another argument from silence, for as one can see in the quoted verses above, there is not even a hint at those external writings. They seemed utterly incapable of grasping the enormity of God writing His law in our hearts, and the works of the law. That writing is in the language of love, as Yeshua stated:

[Matt. 7:12] Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
[Matt. 22:40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That is...loving God with one's all, and loving others as self. Therefore my analysis of the power behind what is written in the heart and inward parts. That gives to us the ability to obey the law at a much deeper level than the mere letter, which kills and condemns.

Now, I'm just fine with folks being zealous for the parts of the law they personally choose to uphold for themselves, such as diet, clothing, and other harmless items that can also be cultural distinctions, but when one begins to think that they are pleasing the Lord above others in doing these things, that is where Paul, Peter and James drew the line. Favor, and especially justification, those are not said to be the outcome from zeal for the law. Why?

[1 Cor. 13:3] And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me nothing.
 
If I may, I'd like to interject some thoughts about what has been said by Ben Avraham:

It's great that salvation by grace and faith is indeed true and recognized by the folks here in relation to what's written in the word of God form the hand of Paul and other of the apostles.

However, there is something in what was said that grates against what I have not only seen in Torah, but also what is not said anywhere throughout all the scriptures. I too once believed in applying a surgical knife to subjectively carve up the law into section in order to do away with the portions that we don't have any way of fulfilling in the absence of a temple, and with an conjectured understanding that Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices in His own blood...which, by the way, is true, but only partially true. That thought fails to recognize the full extent to which Christ fulfilled all the law, not just part of it, and that such fulfillment did away with the letter that "killeth," meaning that we are not bound to attempt adherence to any of the letter.

[Romans 2:12-13] 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Who among any man walking this earth can possibly be a "doer" of the Law to the point of justification? The Jews learned the hard way that they could not obey the law at the level of perfection demanded by the law for it to justify them, even though they responded to the Lord three different times that they promised to "do all" that the Lord had commanded in His law. God's standard for doing the law is perfection, and if any man dare think he can be a "doer" of the law. Apart from perfection, such a man will find himself guilty of all the law, which includes the sacrificial portions.

The law is like a three-legged stool, and when we think that one can break off one or more legs, and that stool stand, gravity (sin)
will pull it down to the floor. I do not find any part of the word of God where the Lord authorized anyone to carve up the law in portions, especially when we're told by Yeshua Himself that He came to fullfill the law, which gives ample evidence to the belief that the law as a whole is exactly what He was addressing, not just a part of it.

I love God's law because it is perfect and righteous, but there is a grave warning for anyone who thinks they can seek out to please the Lord by attempting to keep any one of the laws.

[James 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

[Romans 3:28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now, to my way of thinking, Paul meant what he said in the above, for he was indeed intelligent enough to have conveyed any idea of trying to obey a carved out section of the law if that was at all in the inspiration from the Lord for him to write to us. What I would like to ask you nice folks is where the word of God authorizes anyone to carve up the law of Moses after the coning of Yeshua. This would be a great help in my understanding so that I can make the appropriate corrections in my belief system, because I can't help but to think that the law stands or falls flat on the basis of it remaining a cohesive and complete whole.

Now, I say that because we also know that there will be animal sacrifices going on once again in the Millennial Kingdom. Ezekiel 40-48 make that abundantly clear dare one read the scriptures for what they say. If someone has a different understanding, then I welcome the input. When Christ rules with that rod of iron, it is the entire law of Moses by which that rule with a rod of iron is based upon.

Previously, I stated that "love" is the power of the works of the law written in our hearts by the law Giver. The power of that love is the means and measure by which we fulfill all the law of Moses to the satisfaction and pleasure of the Lord, because when He looks at us, He sees the perfection of keeping the righteous law in His only begotten Son. Any violation of the letter of the law is a violation of that love for God and for others that we are commanded to live by through the power of His Spirit.

Who can possibly love as God has commanded not not fulfill all the law, as it is written?

[Rom 13:8, 10] 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. ... 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
[Gal 5:14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I look forward to further input on these thoughts and these absolute declarations from scripture. Neither these nor any other of the scriptures I have ever read give us license to carve up the law of Moses (Torah) into acceptable sections, and rejection of others on any subjective basis.

Thank you all.
 
As further clarification, let me way that the law has not passed away, only the curse of death from the letter of the law in relation to the Church. I just wanted to make sure that was understood in what I had said in post #22.
 
There's another facet to this gem, which is death. Recall what Paul said about the law of marriage:

[Romans 7:3] So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Death is the release from the law and its penalties. By that same reasoning, then, because we died and were buried with Yeshua:

[Romans 6:4, 8, 11] 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ... 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: ... 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[Romans 7:4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[Romans 8:10-11] 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[Galatians 2:21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[Col. 2:20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[Col. 3:3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The passage in Col. 2:20 is profound, for it reaches out beyond justification in the keeping of the law, but also touches upon subjecting self to the ordinances (law) by way of any requirement laid down either by yourself, or others having laid them upon you.

So, having died in Christ, the law no longer has any power over us in Christ Jesus. The law is powerless to lay hold upon the dead. This means that the law holds sway, power and death only upon those who are not in Christ, and therefore subject unto its curse for death, and death eternal.

Now, some may argue that there's nothing wrong with studying the law and prophets, to which I say a hearty amen. Yes! Studying the law and ordinances brings to the mind and heart greater thankfulness and realization as to the enormity of the liberation and freedom we have in Christ from the bondages of ordinances of law. This also applies to our Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters. Observing the law in a sense of personal guidance for diet and other aspects of daily life, that's not a problem. The problems begin when one thinks they are somehow pleasing the Lord above others in the doing of the law, for the Lord's desire for us is that we shine love outward upon others, which is the power that helps keep us from violating the law as it keeps us in Christ Jesus and His fulfilled perfection in the keeping of the law once and for all who are in the Kingdom of God in this present Church age.

Blessings to you and yours.
 
For those who would like hear some really good overview of the Hebrew Roots movement, Mike Winger has some greater discussions he has provided. He loves the HR people, as do I. They are generally truly devout and loving people. For further viewing at your leisure:




 
Musicmaster said:
[Act 15:5, 7, 9-10] 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. ... 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. ... 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
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The law of Moses contains both moral laws to the letter that kills and cerimoinal laws as shadows of the good that will come. The circumision a shadow of our bloody husband the first born Son. It was completed as part of the 1st century refomantion . The veil which represents the flesh or foreskin of the Son of man was rent. The sabbath comandment is shown in respect to a cerimony . As a shadow it does not draw us closer or cause a seperation as do the moral laws. .

The two rendering Exodus 20 and Deteronomonmy 5 have different "reasoning parables" used to come to the same conclusion . Exodus using creation 6 days and Deuteronomy the deliverance out of Egypt to signify released from bondage of sin

Parables are not used in connection with the letter of the law .Moral laws.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Deuteronomy 5: 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Those shadows wil come into fulfilment in the new heavens and earth then it will be un interupted rest in the green pastures. .
 
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Yes, that is our identity "B'nei Elohim" (sons of God) all born again believers. Not so much baptists, Methodists, etc...
but "sons of God'

Hey, you a Baptist bro? Weeelll, I would say "Ani Ben Elohim" What? English, please. I'm a son of God, part of God's family of the redeemed. Enough said.
 
Well said, Garee.

[Exo 31:16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
[Lev 24:8] Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
[Lev 25:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

Some of my Jewish friends love telling us Gentiles that we don't understand the Old Testament scriptures since we don't understand what was actually being said by Jews...to Jews. I enjoy hearing their take on what I can read quite clearly, always searching out the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries to see if what they say aligns with what the English translations say. Most generally, what I read is pretty well aligned with what they say, the only difference being that the more knowledgeable historians among them fill in some of the ancient, cultural customs and thinking processes about certain topics, but the more westernized Jews I know aren't so well versed in filling in the blanks who were born and raised here outside of Jewish, traditional, rabbinic schools.

One of my favorite ribbing pokes I sometimes take at the new ones I meet who like being called "rabbi" is the words of Jesus where He said:

[Matt. 23:8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

They generally come up with some pretty creative side-steps to the clarity of language Jesus is recorded to have said in our lingual translations. Some of them have filled the white spaces around the red lettering with more fluff than I can possibly recall, but I love them no matter what. I love the Hebrew Roots folks, and I love all others, especially those in Christ. My Messianic Jewish friends who teach Hebrew are a fantastic group whom I have grown close to over the years.
 
Musicmaster said:
but I love them no matter what. I love the Hebrew Roots folks, and I love all others, especially those in Christ. My Messianic Jewish friends who teach Hebrew are a fantastic group whom I have grown close to over the years.
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Hello Musicmaster;

I blue-lighted the bottom line, at the ongoing or end of the discussion, at the end of day, our walk with Christ is to prioritize our LOVE for others.

Others, meaning, those who proclaim their earthly beliefs, cultics, heretics, fundies, etc until they dig it into the ground...Regardless, Jesus WINS! I have personally witnessed their conversions to Christ as their Lord and Savior as a wonderful blessing in my life.

But there is still much work to do. Remedy? Continuously pray for ALL incessantly and unceasingly.

Without God working His LOVE in my daily walk, well, I don't know if I can affectively share the Gospel of Truth with an inner light.

Thank you for sharing, brother.
 
The book of Deuteronomy is a fascinating book. The name of that book means "second writing" or "second giving" of the law of Moses.

The following references are places where the promised rewards for obedience to the law are written, and if one pays close attention to those promises, it will be noticed that they were offered to a specific people living in a specific land...the promised land to the people of promise:

Deut 5:16, 5:31, 5:33, 7:13, 11:9, 11:21, 12:1, 12:10, 15:4, 21:1, 25:15, 25:19, 28:8, 28:11

If obedience to a select portion of the law after the cross were meant for Gentiles across the world, the Bible is strangely silent on that requirement. Our Hebrew Roots friends, as is pointed out in the videos referenced and provided above, must create false dichotomies and redefine key terms in order to try and make the requirement for obedience to the law of Moses rise up out of total silence; propped up by the white spaces around the text that they fill in with all manner of contradictory assumptions and arguments from silence.

One of their key tactics is the use of offering their audience, followers and potential followers, limited possibilities, thus severely limiting the outcome by use of "funnel logic" terms and statements that can only lead to their own contrived conclusions. That's an old tactic to try and force a conclusion that is only in their favor. This also is a common brainwashing tactic used by cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. The main difference with our HR friends is their admission to possibly being wrong, and thus welcoming correction, although they have not yet responded positively to Dr. Winger's challenges to rethink their false premises that have led them to their false conclusions. After all, dare they admit they were wrong, their ministry looses its uniqueness to historic Christianity.

So, I leave it to you, the reader, to study the references in this post, among others throughout, and even more broadly, and come to your own conclusions, and remain sensitive to Holy Spirit, who will never mislead anyone:

[1 John 2:27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Notice the promise to reveal all truth, not just some or most, but all.

It's so wonderful to have the Person among and within us who will lead any and all to the same truths, thus establishing the harmony of doctrine among all who remain sensitive to Holy Spirit.

Some brave souls have asked me in forums, "Then why all the denominations and vast differences in doctrinal belief?" Well, that is another good topic for another thread, but it could very well become explosive dare anyone point out the deafness and lack of sensitivity to Holy Spirit that exists in the lives of so many who profess Christ with their mouths, but whose hearts are far from Holy Spirit. When two views on the same topic remain as polar opposites to each other, one or both of the individuals is wrong, and so one or both are deaf to the voice of Holy Spirit.

Spiritual growth can arise in one or both lives in such a discussion, but only if both parties seek after humility rather than lounge in the cesspool of self pride. Therein is the reason I humbly submit these thoughts to one and all for discussion if anyone has thoughts on this topic, whether they be in agreement or not.

Love to one and all.
 
Musicmaster said:
Well said, Garee.

[Exo 31:16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
[Lev 24:8] Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
[Lev 25:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

Some of my Jewish friends love telling us Gentiles that we don't understand the Old Testament scriptures since we don't understand what was actually being said by Jews...to Jews. I enjoy hearing their take on what I can read quite clearly, always searching out the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries to see if what they say aligns with what the English translations say. Most generally, what I read is pretty well aligned with what they say, the only difference being that the more knowledgeable historians among them fill in some of the ancient, cultural customs and thinking processes about certain topics, but the more westernized Jews I know aren't so well versed in filling in the blanks who were born and raised here outside of Jewish, traditional, rabbinic schools.

One of my favorite ribbing pokes I sometimes take at the new ones I meet who like being called "rabbi" is the words of Jesus where He said:

[Matt. 23:8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

They generally come up with some pretty creative side-steps to the clarity of language Jesus is recorded to have said in our lingual translations. Some of them have filled the white spaces around the red lettering with more fluff than I can possibly recall, but I love them no matter what. I love the Hebrew Roots folks, and I love all others, especially those in Christ. My Messianic Jewish friends who teach Hebrew are a fantastic group whom I have grown close to over the years.
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I would agree when sharing the gospel Mathew 23 it can challenge a person if the Lord wills on how can we hear the voice of God and not that of mankind seen . We are warned of those who say we do need a outward man to teach as Master and Lord of lords and reminded we abide in Christ (the anointing teacher) who works in us the teaching master not see just as Jesus who declared; “not as I will” but as the father empowers us to do the will of the One Good Master.

It would seem they have the temporal historical understanding correct but do not mix it with faith the unseen eternal. The mysteries revealed in parables freely giving us the spiritual understanding.

We learn in the same way the Son of man, Jesus learned. The father teaching and brining to mind the fomer things he has taught us.

John 6: 44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

One person bowed down to Jesus the Son of man and called him Good Master . The word Good is reserved as the signature of our unseen God as a whole . . . Very Good. The good rest.

Mark 10:17-18 King James Version (KJV) And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

In that same way as new creatures we are to know no man after the outward flesh even though some did know as the temporal what the eyes see the window of opportunity left when Jesus disappeared out of sight. In that way all lives matter.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God is not a man and neither is there any infallible fleshly teacher set betwen eternal God not seen and temporal mankind seen . One is our Father in heaven. . call no man on earth father as the one Good teaching Master as Lord of lords.
 
Can someone tell me if they have ever seen a verse or contextual set of passages in the Bible that even hint at the idea of obedience to the law of Moses transitioning from justification (righteousness) to heavenly rewards for attempts at obedience? Every argument Paul makes against adherence to the law of Moses goes to the level of justification, never to reward. The rewards are all spelled out in Deuteronomy, and aimed directly at Israel, never anyone else.

Deuteronomy is replete with promises to the people of Israel prospering and living long in the promised land, and only in reference to Israel. No promises are made to other nations and peoples in their own lands...at least, not that I can find.

When a king issues a lawful edict to those within his kingdom, the soldiers don't go out into to the neighboring kingdoms and try to enforce that edict upon the people of other nations, nor do they offer rewards to the people of other nations for obedience to the edict.

So, in case I've missed something, somewhere, it seems to me that pushing believers in Christ Jesus back into the law of Moses is purely a subjective theology having taken root in hearts on the basis of thoughts and feelings I can't quite nail down because of my not able to see into the hearts of other men.

I can speculate about it, across a spectrum from the benevolent to the malevolent...ranging from a desire to please God to a blackened heart of legalism. This is my attempt at capturing all the various reasons for compliance to what never did apply to us Gentiles. We are referred to as "wild branches" for reasons not revealed, but adherence to the law of Moses may not be one of them.

I'd very much appreciate all your thoughts on this.
 
As a continuance of the previous post, I have also been thinking about how justification by the law could only happen in perfect obedience to the law, to which no man can measure up. How, then, could any man think that he can reap Heavenly treasures and reward in Heaven after attempting to keep the law of Moses. Did God ever indicate His having lowered His standard for perfection for law-keeping so that the law could then become a tool by which rewards can be earned? I don't see that anywhere throughout the scriptures. So, if someone could point that out to me, I'd be very thankful.
 
Musicmaster said:
Can someone tell me if they have ever seen a verse or contextual set of passages in the Bible that even hint at the idea of obedience to the law of Moses transitioning from justification (righteousness) to heavenly rewards for attempts at obedience? Every argument Paul makes against adherence to the law of Moses goes to the level of justification, never to reward. The rewards are all spelled out in Deuteronomy, and aimed directly at Israel, never anyone else.

Deuteronomy is replete with promises to the people of Israel prospering and living long in the promised land, and only in reference to Israel. No promises are made to other nations and peoples in their own lands...at least, not that I can find.

When a king issues a lawful edict to those within his kingdom, the soldiers don't go out into to the neighboring kingdoms and try to enforce that edict upon the people of other nations, nor do they offer rewards to the people of other nations for obedience to the edict.

So, in case I've missed something, somewhere, it seems to me that pushing believers in Christ Jesus back into the law of Moses is purely a subjective theology having taken root in hearts on the basis of thoughts and feelings I can't quite nail down because of my not able to see into the hearts of other men.

I can speculate about it, across a spectrum from the benevolent to the malevolent...ranging from a desire to please God to a blackened heart of legalism. This is my attempt at capturing all the various reasons for compliance to what never did apply to us Gentiles. We are referred to as "wild branches" for reasons not revealed, but adherence to the law of Moses may not be one of them.

I'd very much appreciate all your thoughts on this.
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I would offer there are two kinds of laws called; “the law of Moses” (God’s laws) Moral and is used in a cerimonies as a shadow .

Our heavenly Father is not served by human hands as a will. He works with us in us to both give us desire and empower us to perform his good pleasure. . Being yoked with him out burden is made lighter and as sons of God not being what we will be we have a living hope of a new corruptible body.(Hebrews 11:40)

There must be a division between the moral damnable and the non-effective ceremonial shadows….a show and tell picture or demonstration to the whole world of the coming of the new restored order. . This was before there were Kings the pagan form of worship in Israel. The period of judges’ men and woman prophets declaring prophecy the gospel of Christ. The reformation (Hebrew 9) restored that order spoken of in Joel. Prophets men and woman from all the nations declaring the gospel of Christ. The veil is rent.

Hebrews 9:9-11 King James Version (KJV) Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

God had given over the faithless atheistic Jews who gathered themselves together for a temporal time period( Kings in Isreal) . They are not called by God. The Holy Spirit sent a strong delusion to them so they could believe the lie.Again they saw no evil in doing so

1 Samuel8 :4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

They did not desire to be under the reign of God not seen .Having become jealous of the surrounding nations. The time of reformation restoration had come signified by the veil it was rent. The abomination of desolation was made desolate (hierarchy men, men lording it over the faith of the pew sitters).

Jewish men were allowed to participate in the show and tell ceremony a high wall separating the Jewish woman from the ceremonies and another high wall the gentiles from the Jews .The veil was rent the new shadow show and tell was introduced (Corinthians 11.) The period of time of kings was over

.All of the shadows as ceremonial laws had been completed when the time of reformation came. The veil is rent. One new ceremonial law made up of two new ordinances as shadows of the coming wedding supper in heaven .(1) The covering of the hair for the woman and the hair not covered for the man along with (2) the bread and blood of grapes. Blood used to represent the unseen work of the Spirit. Literal blood without a spirit is dead.

The corrupted lifeless blood of animals could never take away the eternal wage of sin. God is not served by corrupted hands of fallen mankind as a will.

To show the world he is not served by the temporal things seen he set aside a parable called a ceremonial law

Asses in ceremonial laws were used as a metaphor in parables to show the unseen redeeming power of the Lamb of God. An Ass signified as a unclean animal to represent unbelief or no faith .The Ass must be redeemed or killed according to the letter of the law . Establishing the law in so much that God is not served by human hands .the Spirit of Christ spoke the word of God though the mouth of a animal signified as one with no faith a unbeliever.

Exodus 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

Ass + Kings = the genration of Adam failthless unbelivers (666)

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

The words the Ass used as a apsotle (sent one) it spoke the word s of God it stopped the madness of Balaam the false prophet Asses are used to represent unbelievers or kings throughout the bible .
 
Garee said:
I would offer there are two kinds of laws called; “the law of Moses” (God’s laws) Moral and is used in a cerimonies as a shadow .

Our heavenly Father is not served by human hands as a will. He works with us in us to both give us desire and empower us to perform his good pleasure.
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Thanks, Garee.

Yes. That is what is meant when the Lord stated that He would write His law in our hearts, all of which is fulfilled in just two of the written, letter of the law...which is to love the Lord with one's all, and to love others as thyself. If and when we fail at those two things, which are the measure and encompassing power of all the law and prophets, He is our mediator who took the penalty for those failures upon Himself.

So, when my Hebrew Roots friends say to me such things as, "We are required to observe the Sabbath since it was a universal command requirement established in Genesis, not the law."

Well, the Lord Most High said:

[Mark 2:27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Their responses were always deeply theological sounding, but failed miserable to rightly divide the word of God. They didn't bat an eye when told that the Sabbath was a sign between Israel, Judah, and the Lord...a covenantal expression to them.

[Exodus 31:16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
[Lev. 24:8 ] Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
[Lev. 25:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

I would agree that it's better for us to set one day aside for rest, and even better to study and spend more time with the Lord than we're normally able other days of the week, but not all of us can do that. I try to always retain the line of communication/relationship between myself and the Lord throughout every day. It can always be more abundant, and more fulfilling. However, we serve a Lord who sees the heart, and Who knows our struggles to try and keep Him central in our daily lives in the midst of all else going on.
 
Musicmaster said:
Thanks, Garee.

Yes. That is what is meant when the Lord stated that He would write His law in our hearts, all of which is fulfilled in just two of the written, letter of the law...which is to love the Lord with one's all, and to love others as thyself. If and when we fail at those two things, which are the measure and encompassing power of all the law and prophets, He is our mediator who took the penalty for those failures upon Himself.

So, when my Hebrew Roots friends say to me such things as, "We are required to observe the Sabbath since it was a universal command requirement established in Genesis, not the law."

Well, the Lord Most High said:

[Mark 2:27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Their responses were always deeply theological sounding, but failed miserable to rightly divide the word of God. They didn't bat an eye when told that the Sabbath was a sign between Israel, Judah, and the Lord...a covenantal expression to them.

[Exodus 31:16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
[Lev. 24:8 ] Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
[Lev. 25:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

I would agree that it's better for us to set one day aside for rest, and even better to study and spend more time with the Lord than we're normally able other days of the week, but not all of us can do that. I try to always retain the line of communication/relationship between myself and the Lord throughout every day. It can always be more abundant, and more fulfilling. However, we serve a Lord who sees the heart, and Who knows our struggles to try and keep Him central in our daily lives in the midst of all else going on.
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Yes two witnesses make up the one witness of God .The greater witness than that of Mankind. God working in us to both will (1) and empower us (2) to do .
The reference in Exodus before the law, the 7th day (1 witness) Exodus. And the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham400 years later the moving out of a nation .A sign against the world signified by Egypt .

There are two different reasoning parables under the same 10 commandments. . Deuteronomy the second rendering of the same rest.

God does not use parables to reason out the remaining 9 moral laws. Two kinds of laws make up the one perfect work of God who does work in us to both will and perform His good pleasure.
 
Musicmaster said:
I've been studying about the law of Moses, ordinances, commands...whatever one may choose to call them, and what Paul had to say about them in how they relate to the Gentile and Jewish followers of Yeshua. What drove me to this is the growing number of professing believers who are going about and teaching others that we as Christians are required to seek to obey "God's law," which is the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses.

Now, I want to make it clear that the polar opposite to going back to obedience to the law is not a matter of disobedience to the point that we can then commit fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, etc. Not at all. What I've been finding is that Paul had much to say about the law, and how it relates to us today. Paul has already dealt with that argument already. This is not about any freedom to live immoral lives.

What have you folks come to understand about the law in relation to the Christian life in this Church age? What has your studies, if any, revealed to you about the law and commandments?
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If I understand your premise, I can say with all confidence that we as Christians are not bound to the Law of Moses, BUT but the Law is a guide to us!

In the midst of his letter to the believers in Galatia, Paul proceeds to ask the following question in Gal. 3:19...........................:

“What purpose then does the Law serve?”

Paul then goes on to answer this question, and while doing so he makes the following statement in 3:21-24..............................:

“…for if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the Law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the Law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor,”.

According to Paul, the Law was added because of “transgressions.” This implies, as the NEB paraphrase suggests, that God’s Law was used to “make wrongdoing a legal offense.” In other words, it was intended to reveal to us our moral bankruptcy so that we might discover how sinful we really are.

After an individual has come to faith in Christ, the “tutor’s” job in showing them their sinfulness and therefore leading them to the Savior is accomplished, and they are, at that point, no longer under the “schoolmaster.” As Paul so aptly stated in Romans 3:20........................

“Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.”

And again in Romans 7:7..................
“I would not have known sin except through the Law.”

The Bible teaches us that Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.
 
Major said:
If I understand your premise, I can say with all confidence that we as Christians are not bound to the Law of Moses, BUT but the Law is a guide to us!

In the midst of his letter to the believers in Galatia, Paul proceeds to ask the following question in Gal. 3:19...........................:

“What purpose then does the Law serve?”

Paul then goes on to answer this question, and while doing so he makes the following statement in 3:21-24..............................:

“…for if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the Law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the Law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor,”.

According to Paul, the Law was added because of “transgressions.” This implies, as the NEB paraphrase suggests, that God’s Law was used to “make wrongdoing a legal offense.” In other words, it was intended to reveal to us our moral bankruptcy so that we might discover how sinful we really are.

After an individual has come to faith in Christ, the “tutor’s” job in showing them their sinfulness and therefore leading them to the Savior is accomplished, and they are, at that point, no longer under the “schoolmaster.” As Paul so aptly stated in Romans 3:20........................

“Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.”

And again in Romans 7:7..................
“I would not have known sin except through the Law.”

The Bible teaches us that Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.
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I would suggest the letter of the law binds us as a Christian city of refuge as long as we live in dying bodies death. . . . comes. Keeping us safer within from the enemy without while are here in the temporal.

The born again spirit as a law of faith (unseen) works in us together making one perfect law "the just and the justifier”, the law of the letter mixed with the law of faith

In that way we come as His faith draws inward man by his labor of love. . . he work in us with us, His labor of love is not made to no effect because some refuse to beleive in a God not seen

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief (no faith) make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged
 
Musicmaster said:
I've been studying about the law of Moses, ordinances, commands...whatever one may choose to call them, and what Paul had to say about them in how they relate to the Gentile and Jewish followers of Yeshua. What drove me to this is the growing number of professing believers who are going about and teaching others that we as Christians are required to seek to obey "God's law," which is the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses.

Now, I want to make it clear that the polar opposite to going back to obedience to the law is not a matter of disobedience to the point that we can then commit fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, etc. Not at all. What I've been finding is that Paul had much to say about the law, and how it relates to us today. Paul has already dealt with that argument already. This is not about any freedom to live immoral lives.

What have you folks come to understand about the law in relation to the Christian life in this Church age? What has your studies, if any, revealed to you about the law and commandments?
Click to expand...
The Law did its duty to show us that we are lost sinners, and to lead us to the Lord Jeus, but now mot under the Mosaic law, but the law of Christ!
 
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