Unity and Uniformity...

[Musicmaster]

What are your thoughts about the modern mantra, which has the ring of ecumenicalism to it, "Unity doesn't have to involve uniformity"?

What are the limits, if any, to the use of their term "uniformity"? I mean, how does one define its constraints?

Why did a man like Dr. Walter Martin ever practice the inclusionism of the largest of all the religions that have a long history of pagan integration? His book failed to provide coverage of the RCC. Why?

Is unity so much more important than purity...excluding peripheral doctrines that don't corrupt the foundational truth of who God is?

Is it really intolerant bias to call out the obvious faults in a religion simply because its adherents have such a passion for its content, and therefore offending them?

Where does one draw the line for recognition that most religions define a god completely unknown to the scriptures written by inspiration from the One, true God through His apostles?

Can unity ever be more important than an understanding of the nature and character of the One, true God we can read about in the Bible?

Some say this is the battle cry for unity:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

How does one justify elevating unity above the level of doctrinal purity in who God is, and what He does and expects of us all?

Thoughts?

MM

 

[MatthewG]

Hello mm: A lot of questions, but will answer your last question.

How does one justify elevating unity above the level of doctrinal purity in who God is, and what He does and expects of us all?

You will never be perfect, just like me. God helps us overcome things that plague our hearts, hatred, lying, slandering of others, though we will still always fall short in some type of way compare to the Lord Jesus Christ, however that does not disqualify living by the spirit over the flesh. ( I myself am still not perfect, the Lord Jesus Christ through me is the perfection.)

God works in and through us, by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and what truth we have learned.

To go around pointing the finger at others, for not being perfect while none of us are, is failing what the Lord Jesus Christ had taught and also put religious burdens on others, and can lead their hearts in leading to prideful of thyself.​

​

God expects us to Love Him, to put Him first in daily ever morning you wake up. Pray for all the people you know in your life even your enemies. To place faith and trust in Gods promises. And to love others, regardless where they may in their own flesh. Even if they are haters of God, we love them and express Christ like love through compassion, gentleness, with faithfulness of love towards God, and prayer for them to one day see the light.​

What is the work of God? To believe on the one whom he had sent.
John 6:29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

Will everything we do by our own work bring glory to God?

Well, we have hope to but really He will bring about the purpose by his grace for us to do what is needed to be done excluding our (work on trying to make ourselves perfect in the fleshly sense.)​

​

We still will never match the Lord Jesus Christ, though growing by our spiritual maturity and faith, we will be conformed to his image.​

​

(We are better off working on our spiritual aspect, and the fleshly sense dies down but it takes a lot of time and trusting God and hearing of the word..)​

2 Timothy 1:
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles.

This is what has been made to me because we can not make ourselves perfect in the flesh though we can become mature in our faith towards God, even so love towards others. When those times come across where God calls us according to his own purpose and grace.​

All thanks goes to the Lord Jesus Christ, and to the Father in heaven for all they are capable of doing in a mans life through faith, and belief on his Promises.

Never anything we do, but what God is capable of doing in and through us by the holy spirit, and the spirit of Christ.

It takes us to work on believing on them, and trusting them to be able to do have Gods will done in our own life and praying that God has his will done for others in their life.

In coming to the knowledge of the truth which God desires.

1 Timothy 2: Therefore I [a]exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [b]authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and [c]reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

​

Maybe people can be perfect in the flesh and all this is wrong thinking cause it is possible for me to be wrong though it seems impossible to be completely perfect in every sense of the way as the Lord Jesus Christ was perfect in the flesh, for he was tempted in all ways yet never sinned.

Thank you for bearing with me in this addressing of your question MM, and anyone else who decide to read.

God is good.

We are called to Love Him, and then shall be able to love others, no matter who they are as the Lord Jesus Christ stated for us to do!​

 

[Nazarene Servant]

I would say that Acts 24:16 indicates that our offence toward God is sin.
As God also said to be angry but don't sin (Ephesians 4:26).
Anger is an emotion and God gave us emotions. But what we do with
that anger is the difference between sinning and abiding in faith.

As I say often, 'love is not liberalism'. Sometimes we can just stop
talking about what divides us and focus on what unites us not because
I agree but choose to not disagree. Being right isn't all that great if I waste
a perfectly good relationship in the process.

 

[YeshuaFan]

What are your thoughts about the modern mantra, which has the ring of ecumenicalism to it, "Unity doesn't have to involve uniformity"?

What are the limits, if any, to the use of their term "uniformity"? I mean, how does one define its constraints?

Why did a man like Dr. Walter Martin ever practice the inclusionism of the largest of all the religions that have a long history of pagan integration? His book failed to provide coverage of the RCC. Why?

Is unity so much more important than purity...excluding peripheral doctrines that don't corrupt the foundational truth of who God is?

Is it really intolerant bias to call out the obvious faults in a religion simply because its adherents have such a passion for its content, and therefore offending them?

Where does one draw the line for recognition that most religions define a god completely unknown to the scriptures written by inspiration from the One, true God through His apostles?

Can unity ever be more important than an understanding of the nature and character of the One, true God we can read about in the Bible?

Some say this is the battle cry for unity:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

How does one justify elevating unity above the level of doctrinal purity in who God is, and what He does and expects of us all?

Thoughts?

MM

There can not be unity if we are not in agreement on core Christian doctrines, for example, Rome still repudiates Paulinr Justification to this very day!

 

[Nazarene Servant]

There can not be unity if we are not in agreement on core Christian doctrines, for example, Rome still repudiates Paulinr Justification to this very day!

I would assert that Christ alone is the doctrine worth standing firm on.
Otherwise we just get a newly opened church on another street every time
two Christians disagree on yet one more thing.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I would assert that Christ alone is the doctrine worth standing firm on.
Otherwise we just get a newly opened church on another street every time
two Christians disagree on yet one more thing.

Would say that we need to agree on the real Jesus, and the real Gospel that actually saves!

 

[Nazarene Servant]

Would say that we need to agree on the real Jesus, and the real Gospel that actually saves!

I agree on that point. But we may not all agree on everything in the Bible.
No need for an exclamation point. I am just discussing my thought of what
should be necessary in what doctrine we would kill with words for.

 

[MatthewG]

What is the real Gospel to you?

For me it is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven, died, and was raised again by God on their day. There is nothing to be ashamed of, in this Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God for the salvation of men who believe.

(What does the Gospel entail?) Eternal life, prayer, resurrection from the dead, holy spirit, spirit of Christ, relationship with God, suffering for Christ by living by the spirit, acceptance of being a child of God, Peace with God, the ability to Love God, and then to love others.

 

[Nazarene Servant]

What is the real Gospel to you?

Case in point. Let's stop putting each other on trial here.
This should be a place of fellowship and seeking unity.
Stop looking for holes in each others argument and pursue
some expository discussion. You know?
If I followed everyone here that stated their understanding
as fact then I would be so confused.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes Nazarene this is why unity is so important in the faith and Gospel of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 13:11 11 Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Ephesians 4: 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2: For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who came down from heaven, lived a life on this earth, died for everyone, then was raised again by God is very sound knowledge that is able allow us unity in the faith.

Though people may have knowledge that they disagree or agree with does not separate the fact of our faith in Gods promises and on his son Jesus Christ. That is the point of unity.

Always glad to help encourage people in their faith and knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Take care and thank you for reading.

 

[CPerkins]

These are some thought provoking questions.

In my searches I see this has been a discussion point among many different churches. Over the years I've been aware of much talk about unity. In this world I don't see uniformity as possible. Unity has it's problems as well depending on how it is approached. As Christians though we do have many things in common even if we see doctrinal issues differently.

In a real sense we are practicing a kind of unity here at CFS. How, by acting in love, by listening with a teachable spirit, by following the same Spirit.

cp

 

[Nazarene Servant]

Yes Nazarene this is why unity is so important in the faith and Gospel of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 13:11 11 Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Ephesians 4: 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Okay, MatthewG, I appreciate your insight.

 

[Siloam]

For me, personally, when I meet and interact with those with beliefs at contrast with my own, I tend to try to understand their viewpoint, and why they may think so.

This includes believers with similar, but different Christian views, those of what I would term at significant variance with the breadth of Christian thought (to the point of causing me to feel quite upset), as well as those with non Christian beliefs.

I used to work closely with a couple of Sikhs and would occasionally discuss views of religious nature with them. Also on the same project, was a person who practiced a form of Wicca.

Since I moved into this area a few years ago, I have come into friendly contact with Christian faiths and associated cultures very different from my own. While there is a particular church where I fellowship, my wife I occasionally visit other Christian services and found that with few exceptions I can rejoice with them.

These various interactions have not caused me to question my own faith as much as it has caused me to dig deeper into the scriptures and build on my own foundation. As I then continue to interact, I find opportunities to share my own faith with them. Very few persons would care what Siloam thinks or use me as an authority. I do not affront them personally for their views, but I do highlight the differences between their faith and my own.

Treating others with personal respect is not ecumenicism, but can lead to profitable discussions where the Gospel can be presented.

 

[Nazarene Servant]

These are some thought provoking questions.

In my searches I see this has been a discussion point among many different churches. Over the years I've been aware of much talk about unity. In this world I don't see uniformity as possible. Unity has it's problems as well depending on how it is approached. As Christians though we do have many things in common even if we see doctrinal issues differently.

In a real sense we are practicing a kind of unity here at CFS. How, by acting in love, by listening with a teachable spirit, by following the same Spirit.

cp

I agree. We can learn a lot by being willing to learn here.
I have been a Christian for around 35 years and I can still
learn more than I can teach. I know a lot about a lot but I
know Christ first and He said to love others as myself.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for sharing that Siloam, people are very interesting.

 

[YeshuaFan]

What is the real Gospel to you?

For me it is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven, died, and was raised again by God on their day. There is nothing to be ashamed of, in this Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God for the salvation of men who believe.

(What does the Gospel entail?) Eternal life, prayer, resurrection from the dead, holy spirit, spirit of Christ, relationship with God, suffering for Christ by living by the spirit, acceptance of being a child of God, Peace with God, the ability to Love God, and then to love others.

Must define our terms in this area pf the true Gospel. as its either place faith inton the Lord jesust and trust upon Him alone to save us by the Cross, or else we add to that things suvch as must be water baptized, keep sabbath, speak in tongues, take sacramental graces etc!

 

[bobinfaith]

For me, personally, when I meet and interact with those with beliefs at contrast with my own, I tend to try to understand their viewpoint, and why they may think so.
I used to work closely with a couple of Sikhs and would occasionally discuss views of religious nature with them. Also on the same project, was a person who practiced a form of Wicca. Since I moved into this area a few years ago, I have come into friendly contact with Christian faiths and associated cultures very different from my own. While there is a particular church where I fellowship, my wife I occasionally visit other Christian services and found that with few exceptions I can rejoice with them. These various interactions have not caused me to question my own faith as much as it has caused me to dig deeper into the scriptures and build on my own foundation. As I then continue to interact, I find opportunities to share my own faith with them. Very few persons would care what Siloam thinks or use me as an authority. I do not affront them personally for their views, but I do highlight the differences between their faith and my own. Treating others with personal respect is not ecumenicism, but can lead to profitable discussions where the Gospel can be presented.

Hello Siloam;

I enjoyed what you are sharing and blue-lighted the areas that stand out with me. In my community I run into alot of diversity and culture. By letting go, and truly learn to understand more about their faith, or lack of, people aren't stupid and can tell if I'm seriously interested in what they want to share with me. This becomes an opportunity for both sides in the form of respect between two people. Jesus was the master at this.

More times than less, respect is developed, allowing me to share what I believe, and a mutual trust is established, even if we have different views about Christ. Of course there are times when the conversation will stop short because their emotions are sensitive to their beliefs.

The same applies to like minded believers in my own backyard. Christians will differ in our views. Jesus pointed this out in the Gospels when the Apostles argued amongst themselves.

So, do we go forward with the flow of formality, or at the end of the day, are we truly united in One Body in Christ?

If there is no unity, then there is no gospel. We who are followers of Christ must accept our personal discipline and development of this profound teaching.

 

[bobinfaith]

What is the real Gospel to you?

For me it is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven, died, and was raised again by God on their day. There is nothing to be ashamed of, in this Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God for the salvation of men who believe.

(What does the Gospel entail?) Eternal life, prayer, resurrection from the dead, holy spirit, spirit of Christ, relationship with God, suffering for Christ by living by the spirit, acceptance of being a child of God, Peace with God, the ability to Love God, and then to love others.

2 Corinthians 13:11 11 Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Ephesians 4: 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2: For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who came down from heaven, lived a life on this earth, died for everyone, then was raised again by God is very sound knowledge that is able allow us unity in the faith.

Though people may have knowledge that they disagree or agree with does not separate the fact of our faith in Gods promises and on his son Jesus Christ. That is the point of unity.

Always glad to help encourage people in their faith and knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Take care and thank you for reading.

Hello MatthewG;

"What is the real Gospel to you?"

I want to suggest we shouldn't worry about what is the right or wrong answer. There is no "cross the board" answer to the question you posted.

The fundamental teaching of the Gospel is important to know, but for each believer this is also a very personal story and what makes sharing the Gospel so beautiful.

The Scriptures you outlined have a KEY noun in each one of them, and that is one which equates to unity, or vice versa.

Thank you for sharing, brother.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes you are right. All that matters is their story and how they came to God, their health and well being.

 

[Musicmaster]

I agree with what someone said about none of us being perfect. If I may, I'd like to establish, from my perspective, that perfection is not the standard I would try to demand of others when it comes to doctrinal consistency with what's written in the word of God. There are a few vague things in the Bible, of which we need not quibble over when there is a lack in clarity and importance.

On the other hand, I subscribe first and foremost to love as the highest standard by which we should approach issues of biblical proportions.

Now, within the ecumenical movement, I'm seeing compromises that cause me to step back and take a more holistic look rather than to jump in blindly, waving the banner of "love" and "unity" while turning a blind eye to the many ripple effects originating from various items of doctrine and belief that so many others possess. Love was never meant to be a force to smother out discernment and distancing from corrupt beliefs that so many others out there, who claim to be "christian," (whatever that means in a relativistic culture) but whose system of theology embraces a god completely unknown to the scriptures.

I'm all for this:

Proverbs 27:17 17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

It has been discussed in other posts in this thread about, in the midst of differences, seek out the similarities. From my experience, the similarities have always surfaced in discussions about the differences. It's organic. That very truth can be seen in this very thread, whether most noticed it or not.

You see, what I try to drive people toward is this:

WARNING: What follows may be deemed harsh and unacceptable to some, so proceed with your reading with caution if you so dare continue; for the flesh cannot accept what I'm about to say.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, for those who live by the Spirit, and are therefore taught by that same Spirit, will not harbor disagreement on doctrinal issues.

When there is disagreement, that is evidence for the lack of one or both not living, breathing and walking by that Spirit. This is dangerous, and should be taken more seriously by all true believers.

Rather than to recognize this harsh reality, most go away with their stiff necks fully intact rather than to embrace one another and say, "Because we both seek to live by the Spirit, we need to take this before the Lord that His Spirit may correct one or both of us, and instruct us of His truth in this matter.

Where do you ever hear this taught, especially within the ecumenical community? If we claim to walk in the Spirit, we should always walk collectively in and by that same Spirit, thus shattering the fleshly tendency toward disunity. I have no desire to fellowship with those who are not willing to seek the Spirit of the Lord for all things, especially where there is disagreement.

How many out there teach this level of unity, which can lead to true fellowship?

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In these verses, we are instructed how much higher than ours are the thoughts and ways of God, but nowhere in that context does the Lord say, "Now, don't you dare ask me for my thoughts and my ways...!"

In defiance of my flesh, I routinely ask the Lord for His ways and His thoughts, and I can't possibly do justice to how wondrous has been His response, and what He has given to me. I'm boasting only about the Lord. It is none of me. It's all about Him and what He lovingly provides to those who ask in accordance with His will.

So, by example of iron sharpening iron, we should be encouraging one another to greater heights in faith, knowledge, and obedience unto the Lord, and all else that the Lord has written within our hearts. We should seek perfection only in our agreement in what the Spirit of the Lord gives to us.

When confronted by those who promote doctrines, such as following the written law, praying to Mary and/or other so-called "saints", joining in the brotherhood of mankind, and any number of all the other worldly mantras and sloganeering campaigns that mask the evil behind their belief structures, I choose to not pollute myself with them. I will encourage them to seek the Spirit, but given that most don't live by the Spirit, it's an exercise in futility.

So, in conclusion, there are only two different arenas of unity...not three, four or more. There is truth, and there is falsehood. There are no shades of gray. Unity at the expense of truth is not unity. It is bondage. In Christ Jesus, there is not falsehood, for He said of Himself that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is, therefore, only One Truth.

A desire in two or more people discussing doctrine and other things of life, to seek after the Spirit, is a good beginning in discovering the power of the Lord in unity within the Body. When we live at that level in our faith, the desire to go back to the inferior rudiments of the world in our understanding is rendered null and void. We see, then, that we were only pretending to be unified, when in fact we were not. It was only a pretense.

See? I told you this could be dangerous. It goes against the very fabric of modern, liberal, Western thinking.

MM