Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

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One can parade and our out an avalanche of references for all manner of verses, in context, out of context, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, and still not glean nor convey a complete knowledge and understanding about God that is greater than what He reveals of Himself to those who seek Him. He gives revelation of Himself that is beyond mere words to those who seek. It is the Life in the written word that gives rise to our need to seek Him for even deeper and greater understanding of Him.

MM
 
Cooper said:
Yes indeed. Jesus is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Jesus was there in the beginning, He is the 'I' in Proverbs 8.

But you are of Him in Christ Jesus, Who was made to us wisdom from God — even righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; (1Co 1:30)

But to those who are called — both Jews and Greeks — Christ is God’s power and God’s wisdom. (1Co 1:24)

In Whom (Jesus) are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (Col 2:3)

Pro 8:22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
Pro 8:23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
Pro 8:26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
Pro 8:30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
Pro 8:32 "Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD;
Pro 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death."
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Proverbs not Jesus speaking, as wisdom there was created by God there, but Jesus was and is eternally also Himself very God!
 
Cooper said:
Suggestion: Instead of saying 'person' how about saying power? It gives pause for thought.
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You can certainly do that to satisfy your concerns. However, for "ME" I will stick with PERSON.

When I talk about God, I use the word Person to show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have personhood or personality. That is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have intellect, emotion, and volition. Any being with rationality, emotion, and a will can be considered a person; thus, human beings are persons, but so are angelic beings and the Divine Being. The definition of person cannot include physicality for the simple reason that human beings do not cease to be persons after death.

The idea that the Trinity has "POWER' does not even have to be stated as it is not only a Bible truth but just plain common sense.
 
YeshuaFan said:
Proverbs not Jesus speaking, as wisdom there was created by God there, but Jesus was and is eternally also Himself very God!
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If I remember correctly it was Solomon who wrote Proverbs, and he was not there in the beginning. The 'I' in Proverbs is Jesus who created the heavens and the earth before he came down from heaven.
 
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Cooper said:
If I remember correctly it was Solomon who wrote Proverbs, and he was not there in the beginning, that was Jesus who created the heavens and the earth before he came down from heaven.
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I agree that Solomon penned the words down but According to Colossians 1:16 It was the Lord Jesus who wrote Proverbs.
 
Major said:
I agree that Solomon penned the words down but According to Colossians 1:16 It was the Lord Jesus who wrote Proverbs.
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The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Firstborn for those who don't know means the most important. King David was the last of ten children, but he was the firstborn.
 
Cooper said:
The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Firstborn for those who don't know means the most important. King David was the last of ten children, but he was the firstborn.
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It has been my understnading that The term firstborn has two main meanings.

The first is more literal, referring to the fact that this son is the first son to be born of his father.
The second meaning refers to the rights and authority of a person, because they are the firstborn.
 
Cooper said:
The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Firstborn for those who don't know means the most important. King David was the last of ten children, but he was the firstborn.
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So, what's your point here? Can you be more expansive?

Thanks

MM
 
Major said:
It has been my understnading that The term firstborn has two main meanings.

The first is more literal, referring to the fact that this son is the first son to be born of his father.
The second meaning refers to the rights and authority of a person, because they are the firstborn.
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From my notes

Firstborn is about status. Ephraim is above Manasseh, who was the eldest of the two, but Ephraim is the Lord’s “firstborn” even though he is the youngest.

King David is appointed the Lord’s “firstborn,” he was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel. He was pre-eminent over all. Jesus is also pre-eminent, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV) and topping it all, He is the WORD who created the heaven and the earth.

http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/KingDavidsFamily.pdf


Jesus is the “firstborn” meaning he is pre-eminent (Prototokos) over all creation. Now connect Christ’s pre-eminence with the fact that he came down from heaven, and we can see that Jesus both pre-existed and is pre-eminent and only God (Emmanuel) is both pre-existing and pre-eminent. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19:16.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. So is the Father. This means Jesus is God on earth, made visible by becoming flesh.

In the Bible Ephraim is the Lord's "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, Manasseh was born first, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh. When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation we are being told Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation, meaning Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

(See Jesus the Word John 1:1-14)

Col 1:. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things.

ALSO SEE Primogeniture regarding the law of inheritance.
 
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Cooper said:
From my notes

Firstborn is about status. Ephraim is above Manasseh, who was the eldest of the two, but Ephraim is the Lord’s “firstborn” even though he is the youngest.

King David is appointed the Lord’s “firstborn,” he was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel. He was pre-eminent over all. Jesus is also pre-eminent, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV) and topping it all, He is the WORD who created the heaven and the earth.

http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/KingDavidsFamily.pdf


Jesus is the “firstborn” meaning he is pre-eminent (Prototokos) over all creation. Now connect Christ’s pre-eminence with the fact that he came down from heaven, and we can see that Jesus both pre-existed and is pre-eminent and only God (Emmanuel) is both pre-existing and pre-eminent. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19:16.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. So is the Father. This means Jesus is God on earth, made visible by becoming flesh.

In the Bible Ephraim is the Lord's "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, Manasseh was born first, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh. When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation we are being told Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation, meaning Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

(See Jesus the Word John 1:1-14)

Col 1:. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things.
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I did a search, and I can't find a verse that contains both "David" and "firstborn" as a reference to him personally.

Do you have a reference for that?

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
So, what's your point here? Can you be more expansive?

Thanks

MM
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The pre-eminent Jesus from Ellicott's Commentary on Ephesians 1:21

Jesus is Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion.—The words here used are intended to include all possible forms of power, corresponding to the exhaustive enumeration in Philippians 2:10, “of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.”

The words rendered “principality and power” (more properly signifying “government and the authority committed to it”) are used in Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Titus 3:1, distinctively for earthly-powers; in 1Corinthians 15:24, generally for all created powers whatever. But St. Paul mostly employs this whole group of words, especially in the Epistles of the Captivity, with a manifest reference to angelic powers of good or evil.

Thus in Romans 8:38 we read, of “angels, and principalities, and powers” (as in 1Peter 3:22, “angels, and authorities, and powers”); in Ephesians 3:10 of this Epistle, of “principalities and powers in the heavenly places;” and in Ephesians 6:12, of “wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers,” &c.; and in Colossians 1:16, of “things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.”

Not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.—The word “world” is here age, and the antithesis is exactly that of our Lord’s words in Matthew 12:32 (see Note there). Manifestly, however, it here signifies “this life” (or dispensation) and “the future life,” that is, the life on this side, and on the other side, of the Second Coming of Christ.
 
Cooper said:
The pre-eminent Jesus from Ellicott's Commentary on Ephesians 1:21

Jesus is Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion.—The words here used are intended to include all possible forms of power, corresponding to the exhaustive enumeration in Philippians 2:10, “of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.”

The words rendered “principality and power” (more properly signifying “government and the authority committed to it”) are used in Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Titus 3:1, distinctively for earthly-powers; in 1Corinthians 15:24, generally for all created powers whatever. But St. Paul mostly employs this whole group of words, especially in the Epistles of the Captivity, with a manifest reference to angelic powers of good or evil.

Thus in Romans 8:38 we read, of “angels, and principalities, and powers” (as in 1Peter 3:22, “angels, and authorities, and powers”); in Ephesians 3:10 of this Epistle, of “principalities and powers in the heavenly places;” and in Ephesians 6:12, of “wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers,” &c.; and in Colossians 1:16, of “things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.”

Not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.—The word “world” is here age, and the antithesis is exactly that of our Lord’s words in Matthew 12:32 (see Note there). Manifestly, however, it here signifies “this life” (or dispensation) and “the future life,” that is, the life on this side, and on the other side, of the Second Coming of Christ.
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Ok. So, your point was about the preeminence of Christ Jesus over all things. I can agree with that.

MM
 
Cooper said:
The pre-eminent Jesus from Ellicott's Commentary on Ephesians 1:21

Jesus is Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion.—The words here used are intended to include all possible forms of power, corresponding to the exhaustive enumeration in Philippians 2:10, “of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.”

The words rendered “principality and power” (more properly signifying “government and the authority committed to it”) are used in Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Titus 3:1, distinctively for earthly-powers; in 1Corinthians 15:24, generally for all created powers whatever. But St. Paul mostly employs this whole group of words, especially in the Epistles of the Captivity, with a manifest reference to angelic powers of good or evil.

Thus in Romans 8:38 we read, of “angels, and principalities, and powers” (as in 1Peter 3:22, “angels, and authorities, and powers”); in Ephesians 3:10 of this Epistle, of “principalities and powers in the heavenly places;” and in Ephesians 6:12, of “wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers,” &c.; and in Colossians 1:16, of “things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.”

Not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.—The word “world” is here age, and the antithesis is exactly that of our Lord’s words in Matthew 12:32 (see Note there). Manifestly, however, it here signifies “this life” (or dispensation) and “the future life,” that is, the life on this side, and on the other side, of the Second Coming of Christ.
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I do not think that anyone is or can argue your point of the pre-immanence of the Lord Jesus.
 
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