Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

[DavyP]

never stated took on human form, but that when they appeared in a physical form, a;ways looked Ike a man!

Sorry that I have to say, but yeah, you did point to that very idea, when you said, and I quote:

"Angels are sexless, spiritual created beings, who when took on physical forms always appeared as males, but are not human!"

Was that a slip up? Possibly, since that false idea has spread like wildfire among the Christian community like other un-Biblical notions, like the word 'man' always refers to a flesh human being when Biblically it always does not.

A problem many brethren have in understanding about the Heavenly dimension, is with thinking it being of Spirit, that it has no relation to our earthly dimension. They kind of forget that this earthly dimension was created from... that Heavenly dimension where God's Abode is. And they also forget that God's Eden (His dwelling) was once upon this earth (Genesis 2), and that He has declared His future return to this earth (Revelation 21).

It's the Hollywood movies that push false ideas about ghosts and gobblins and the spirit realm, which has nothing to do with the Heavenly per God's written Word. I suggest those who don't understand this turn off their TV, and start getting more into God's Word about it.

 

[Cooper]

Maybe, but be careful, the NKJV is not what you may think. That's the Bible version I was given when I was baptized, but it didn't take me long to recognize it was a different translation than the 1611 KJV.

Look at the Bible recommendations thread, and the YouTube links I gave. There are two types of Greek New Testament texts, the newer one comes from Wescott and Hort's 1881 new Greek translation that all modern Bible versions use. They consulted a totally different set of Greek manuscripts than what the KJV used. The KJV used what is called the Received Texts, which make up the majority of existent Greek New Testament manuscripts, which is why it is also known as the Majority Text. There's a war going on with Bible versions, and the NIV was one of greatest examples of a modern NT version that tries to remove Majority Text verses that declare the divinity of Christ Jesus.

I know what you are saying is true, but language does change over the centuries, and being an amateur historian, I know that very well. For me, you are a person, and I am sorry to say this, but you are not a deity.

Now, being a believer I understand these things, but if I did not know what people mean when they write on message boards like this, and I was to read that Trinitarians worship three persons, I would think it was a joke. Not even the KJV1611 uses the word person in relation to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See below.

Feare not, thou worme Iacob, and ye men of Israel: I will helpe thee, saith the Lord, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
(Isaiah 41:14 KJV-1611)

Thus saith the Lord the redeemer of Israel, and his holy one, to him whom man dispiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a seruant of rulers; Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord, that is faithfull, and the holy one of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (Isaiah 49:7 KJV-1611)

For thy maker is thine husband, (the Lord of hostes is his name and thy redeemer the holy one of Israel, the God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5 KJV-1611)

Notice also who Israel's redeemer is, but His own people in the main despise him still. Notice also that Jesus was there in the beginning before he came among us in the image and likeness of man.

 

[Musicmaster]

Who is God speaking of in Genesis 1:26? You said it wasn't angels, so I assumed you were speaking of persons. If I was wrong I apologise.

You seem to have mastered the art of forcing words into other people's statements. None of us can fully comprehend God and the fullness of His nature and Person. So, your problem with the use of "person" only manifests in concert with all the other statements ever made in trying to grasp the deeper things behind the key verses you parade in your presentations.

MM

 

[YeshuaFan]

Jesus said he was the I AM.

is there also the Father and Holy Spirit as distinct Persons then?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Maybe, but be careful, the NKJV is not what you may think. That's the Bible version I was given when I was baptized, but it didn't take me long to recognize it was a different translation than the 1611 KJV.

Look at the Bible recommendations thread, and the YouTube links I gave. There are two types of Greek New Testament texts, the newer one comes from Wescott and Hort's 1881 new Greek translation that all modern Bible versions use. They consulted a totally different set of Greek manuscripts than what the KJV used. The KJV used what is called the Received Texts, which make up the majority of existent Greek New Testament manuscripts, which is why it is also known as the Majority Text. There's a war going on with Bible versions, and the NIV was one of greatest examples of a modern NT version that tries to remove Majority Text verses that declare the divinity of Christ Jesus.

Are you into King James version only then?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Well yes Melchizedek was our Lord Jesus back in Old Testament times that met Abraham and blessed him. You simply are going on some general idea of what the Book of Hebrews is mainly about, instead of actually reading... the Hebrews 7 Scripture as written. And much of the Book of Hebrews indeed is... about the difference between a priesthood between the old and New Covenant. But what Paul is revealing in Hebrews 7 is something deeper about Christ Jesus.

I will start a new thread to show this point in Hebrews 7 that I'm talking about.

That was not a preincarnate Christ who met Abraham, as that was a real historical figure who was shown to us as a type of the High Priest yet to come!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I know what you are saying is true, but language does change over the centuries, and being an amateur historian, I know that very well. For me, you are a person, and I am sorry to say this, but you are not a deity.

Now, being a believer I understand these things, but if I did not know what people mean when they write on message boards like this, and I was to read that Trinitarians worship three persons, I would think it was a joke. Not even the KJV1611 uses the word person in relation to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See below.

Feare not, thou worme Iacob, and ye men of Israel: I will helpe thee, saith the Lord, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
(Isaiah 41:14 KJV-1611)

Thus saith the Lord the redeemer of Israel, and his holy one, to him whom man dispiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a seruant of rulers; Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord, that is faithfull, and the holy one of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (Isaiah 49:7 KJV-1611)

For thy maker is thine husband, (the Lord of hostes is his name and thy redeemer the holy one of Israel, the God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5 KJV-1611)

Notice also who Israel's redeemer is, but His own people in the main despise him still. Notice also that Jesus was there in the beginning before he came among us in the image and likeness of man.

We worship 3 persons, who are the One true God!

 

[YeshuaFan]

You seem to have mastered the art of forcing words into other people's statements. None of us can fully comprehend God and the fullness of His nature and Person. So, your problem with the use of "person" only manifests in concert with all the other statements ever made in trying to grasp the deeper things behind the key verses you parade in your presentations.

MM

Persons best way for us to try to understand how while there are 3 distinct personsbwithin the Godhead, still but One God!

 

[Hopefull]

Persons best way for us to try to understand how while there are 3 distinct personsbwithin the Godhead, still but One God!

Agreed. I believe scripture was written to be understood by those recieving it. Yet many mysteries contained within to be discovered and understood.

 

[DavyP]

Are you into King James version only then?

No. I simply recommend relying on the KJV for accuracy. If one wants to daily use another version, fine, but to make a Truth clear, I strongly advise referring to the KJV.

Furthermore, what is this 'KJV Only' attitude that those like myself keep getting from those who do not use the KJV? Am I attacking the other modern New Testament versions? You bet I am, I'll admit it, and their source material used for those modern versions is where doubters should be looking into, instead of just accepting what publishers and copyrightists say. I don't agree with their removing a lot of Scriptures that are in the manuscripts used for the KJV Bible. And when Gideon's goes to the editors of the ESV who own its copyright, and ask if Gideons can put back the missing Scriptures that are in the Majority Text (KJV New Testament text), that right there ought to be a red flag about the modern ESV New Testament translation.

One simply does not have to be a scholar to figure out there is Scripture missing in modern New Testament versions. I don't like that fact, but it is a fact. And if that fact offends brethren that use those modern NT versions, then maybe they should not just say they have made the version comparisons when they have not. (1 John 5:7 is in the KJV, and versions before the 1880s. That verse is totally stricken from modern New Testament versions).

Furthermore, the KJV is not the only... Bible that used the Received Texts for its New Testament. The Bible versions prior to Wescott and Hort's 1881 Greek NT translation used the Textus Receptus Greek manuscripts, also called the Received Texts or Majority Text.

 

[DavyP]

That was not a preincarnate Christ who met Abraham, as that was a real historical figure who was shown to us as a type of the High Priest yet to come!

That was Lord Jesus Who met Abraham. There is only one Jesus Christ Who that Hebrews 7 Scripture can refer to, particularly in the Hebrews 7:3 verse.

So I don't know where you get ideas like 'preincarnate' from, certainly not from the Scriptures. Using such an idea as that suggests that you believe Jesus Christ never even existed prior to His being born in the flesh through Mary's womb.

 

[Major]

Sorry that I have to say, but yeah, you did point to that very idea, when you said, and I quote:

"Angels are sexless, spiritual created beings, who when took on physical forms always appeared as males, but are not human!"

Was that a slip up? Possibly, since that false idea has spread like wildfire among the Christian community like other un-Biblical notions, like the word 'man' always refers to a flesh human being when Biblically it always does not.

A problem many brethren have in understanding about the Heavenly dimension, is with thinking it being of Spirit, that it has no relation to our earthly dimension. They kind of forget that this earthly dimension was created from... that Heavenly dimension where God's Abode is. And they also forget that God's Eden (His dwelling) was once upon this earth (Genesis 2), and that He has declared His future return to this earth (Revelation 21).

It's the Hollywood movies that push false ideas about ghosts and gobblins and the spirit realm, which has nothing to do with the Heavenly per God's written Word. I suggest those who don't understand this turn off their TV, and start getting more into God's Word about it.

Davy.....where in the Scriptures are any examples of FEMALE angels or where they reproduced in any way!!!!

What Yeshua posted is 100% Biblical.

 

[Major]

I know what you are saying is true, but language does change over the centuries, and being an amateur historian, I know that very well. For me, you are a person, and I am sorry to say this, but you are not a deity.

Now, being a believer I understand these things, but if I did not know what people mean when they write on message boards like this, and I was to read that Trinitarians worship three persons, I would think it was a joke. Not even the KJV1611 uses the word person in relation to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See below.

Feare not, thou worme Iacob, and ye men of Israel: I will helpe thee, saith the Lord, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
(Isaiah 41:14 KJV-1611)

Thus saith the Lord the redeemer of Israel, and his holy one, to him whom man dispiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a seruant of rulers; Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord, that is faithfull, and the holy one of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (Isaiah 49:7 KJV-1611)

For thy maker is thine husband, (the Lord of hostes is his name and thy redeemer the holy one of Israel, the God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5 KJV-1611)

Notice also who Israel's redeemer is, but His own people in the main despise him still. Notice also that Jesus was there in the beginning before he came among us in the image and likeness of man.

I have read your posts several times. For the life of me I can not understand your preoccupation over the word "PERSON" as seen in the Trinity.

Many theologians admit that the term “person” is not a perfect word to describe the three individual persons found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God, there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

I sail to see why that is a problem for YOU! You have talked all around the reason why but none of that talk is acceptable as an explination.

 

[DavyP]

Davy.....where in the Scriptures are any examples of FEMALE angels or where they reproduced in any way!!!!

What Yeshua posted is 100% Biblical.

That subject is totally irrelevant to what I was saying. You know as well as I do that the angels all have the image of man. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

The title "sons of God" is a Heavenly title, pointing to the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why that title in Genesis 6 and the Book of Job is pointing directly to angels. And it is also why that title was used by Christ's Apostles for those in Christ about the glorious state of the world to come. In Matthew 22:30, Lord Jesus pointed to the resurrection body being a body as the angels of God in heaven.

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

 

[Major]

That was Lord Jesus Who met Abraham. There is only one Jesus Christ Who that Hebrews 7 Scripture can refer to, particularly in the Hebrews 7:3 verse.

So I don't know where you get ideas like 'preincarnate' from, certainly not from the Scriptures. Using such an idea as that suggests that you believe Jesus Christ never even existed prior to His being born in the flesh through Mary's womb.

Pre-incarnate means "seen and heard" before taking a human form = Incarnation!

Pre-incarnate has nothing to do with Christ NOT existing before being incarnated.

It simply means that before His Incarnation He took human form to visit man and give directions and information.

Far from being silent about Jesus, the Old Testament is a vital source of revelation about Him! Jesus verifies this Himself in Luke 24:44, ......
"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me".

The pre-incarnate Christ made many such "Theopanies/Christophanies!"

 

[Major]

That subject is totally irrelevant to what I was saying. You know as well as I do that the angels all have the image of man. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

The title "sons of God" is a Heavenly title, pointing to the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why that title in Genesis 6 and the Book of Job is pointing directly to angels. And it is also why that title was used by Christ's Apostles for those in Christ about the glorious state of the world to come. In Matthew 22:30, Lord Jesus pointed to the resurrection body being a body as the angels of God in heaven.

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

I do not agree Davy.

You said...........
"Angels are sexless, spiritual created beings, who when took on physical forms always appeared as males, but are not human!"
Was that a slip up?"

Genesis 6 is speaking of MEN not angels. Angels are a-sexual and can not mate with anything much less human women.
"Sons of God" in Genesis can NOT in any way be angels!!!!!

I Job 1:6.......those SOns of God ARE angels as the LOCATION is in heaven and there were NO MEN in heaven then!

Matthew 22:30 clearly says that everything in heaven is asexual. That includes the saints who are there now, the church that will be later and the ANGELS who have been there since their creation.

Angels do not reproduce...they were created.

 

[DavyP]

Pre-incarnate means "seen and heard" before taking a human form = Incarnation!

Pre-incarnate has nothing to do with Christ NOT existing before being incarnated.

It simply means that before His Incarnation He took human form to visit man and give directions and information.

Far from being silent about Jesus, the Old Testament is a vital source of revelation about Him! Jesus verifies this Himself in Luke 24:44, ......
"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me".

The pre-incarnate Christ made many such "Theopanies/Christophanies!"

The word 'incarnation' (and all forms), is not used in The Bible. It is a seminary theological idea.

Nor is there any such idea as Jesus, or angels 'taking human form', which also is purely a seminary theological idea, as such an idea is not written in The Bible either.

But I'll tell you what is written about that, if you're willing to listen. Lord Jesus appeared to Abraham with the image of 'man' at Abraham's tent door per Genesis 18, and Abraham went and prepared food and drink, and Jesus with the two other men with Him, which were the two angels He sent to Lot, they all sat and ate what Abraham prepared for them, and that WITHOUT A FLESH BODY.

It's those who cannot understand that which try to ADD... to the Scriptures the idea they 'took on human form', when no such idea is written. So what form were they before... they appeared to Abraham? No one can explain that idea because it is fallacy, and not written.

Lord Jesus has always... had the image of man, because that is His outward likeness which He created Adam also with, as written in Genesis 1:26-27, and that is Bible 101.

 

[Major]

The word 'incarnation' (and all forms), is not used in The Bible. It is a seminary theological idea.

Nor is there any such idea as Jesus, or angels 'taking human form', which also is purely a seminary theological idea, as such an idea is not written in The Bible either.

But I'll tell you what is written about that, if you're willing to listen. Lord Jesus appeared to Abraham with the image of 'man' at Abraham's tent door per Genesis 18, and Abraham went and prepared food and drink, and Jesus with the two other men with Him, which were the two angels He sent to Lot, they all sat and ate what Abraham prepared for them, and that WITHOUT A FLESH BODY.

It's those who cannot understand that which try to ADD... to the Scriptures the idea they 'took on human form', when no such idea is written. So what form were they before... they appeared to Abraham? No one can explain that idea because it is fallacy, and not written.

Lord Jesus has always... had the image of man, because that is the outward likeness which He created Adam with, as written in Genesis 1:26-27, and that is Bible 101.

Correct!
Correct!
Correct!

He killed the animals in the Garden for Adam.
He also was in the burning bush.
He was also in the fiery furnace.
He was the cloud by day.
He was the fire by night.
He appeared to Isaac in Beersheba.
He wrestled with Jacob
He talked with Gideon.

 

[DavyP]

I do not agree Davy.

You said...........
"Angels are sexless, spiritual created beings, who when took on physical forms always appeared as males, but are not human!"
Was that a slip up?"

Well, to be clear, I did not say the above in bold quotations.

And I think there was a lot more to what I wrote with that, "Was that a slip up?" question.

Genesis 6 is speaking of MEN not angels. Angels are a-sexual and can not mate with anything much less human women.

The "sons of God" title is a heavenly realm title, not a flesh one. The fact that God's Own outward likeness appearance is what He create aadam with proves that the image of man originated in Heaven with Him, and not from flesh, and that is Bible 101 per Genesis 1:26-27. I'm surprised at so many brethren who deny that Scripture as written.

"Sons of God" in Genesis can NOT in any way be angels!!!!!

I Job 1:6.......those SOns of God ARE angels as the LOCATION is in heaven and there were NO MEN in heaven then!

You do realize you contradicted yourself in the above, don't you? In one sentence you claim the "Sons of God" is not about angels, and in the next sentence you claim the "sons of God" are angels. And there are 'men' in Heaven, because the word 'man' simply refers to the outward likeness of our Heavenly Father Who is in Heaven. Same with Lord Jesus in Old Testament times too, He appears in Heaven with that image of man. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name is 'man of God', look it up.

Matthew 22:30 clearly says that everything in heaven is asexual. That includes the saints who are there now, the church that will be later and the ANGELS who have been there since their creation.

Angels do not reproduce...they were created.

You have missed study of the Jude 6-7 Scripture that describes what those particular angels of Genesis 6 did. They left their first estate, meaning their position as heavenly angels. They obviously wanted the privileges of flesh men in regards to flesh woman, so they left their habitation and first estate. This is why these particular angels are locked in chains in the pit waiting on the judgement, as written.

 

[Dave F.]

I looked up Gabriel and the name means GOD is my strength. Michael means from GOD. I understand what you are saying about the image, because man was made in GODs image not the other way around. Therefore the image has always been.