The Millennium: (9) Life in the Millennium

[Dave F.]

Doesn't 1 Peter 5:8 tell us that the devil is free to roam about?

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Major]

Major your contention is because the word used in Revelation 20 for a thousand years means a literal thousand years and if God had meant otherwise he would have used another word if meaning a longer period of time.. ok let’s evaluate that. In John 10:7 it says I am the door to the sheep. The words for door and sheep are both literal. In Psalm1:3 it says and he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers. Again with the man being compared to a fruitful literal tree. So just because you have a word or number that is literal doesn’t mean that can’t be taken as a simile a parable, symbolically or figuratively. And yes Major you be right we must always evaluate context along with a few other things like more literal readings as the epistles when comparing such a symbolic book as the book of revelations when considering end time prophecy. But we not even have to do that . Because there already be an elephant in the room. Ahd that being that Satan has been bound now for nearly 2000 yrs and not a thousand years beginning when our Lords ministry finished here upon earth vanquishing Satans dominion and power over the earth as our Lords gospel now continues to expand and flourish unto the four corners of the world. This is why Satan being bound for a thousand yrs is to be taken figuratively as a longer period of time. And of course there may be symbology as a possibility as well. Yours Prim

Prime, the reason why we are having this dicussion is actually very simple.

YOU just said............
"Ahd that being that Satan has been bound now for nearly 2000 yrs and not a thousand years beginning when our Lords ministry finished here upon earth vanquishing Satans dominion and power over the earth as our Lords gospel now continues to expand and flourish unto the four corners of the world. This is why Satan being bound for a thousand yrs is to be taken figuratively as a longer period of time. And of course there may be symbology as a possibility as well. Yours Prim".

From YOUR own words that you just posted, you are approaching Escotology with an "Amilliennialist view.

This is why you said you did not accept the time frame between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9 as the Church Age.
This is why you reject the literal meaning of the Greek word used to define One THousand Years and are working so hard to validate that.

As such, by your own words, view Satan as having been bound at the cross, the resurrection in connection with the kingdom as occurring when the graves of some of the saints were opened at the resurrection of Christ, Pentecost as being the sign of Christ’s kingdom come on earth, and the persecution of the early church as fulfilling, at least in part, the prophecies of the tribulation period.

Now, to believe that means that we are now living in the 1000 year rule of Christ because as YOU said, Satan has been bound.

That would then by common sense and Biblical truth mean that there is.........
NO SIN today.
No tears or suffering today (Revelation 21:4)
No death today (Ezekiel 34:16 Isiah 65:20)
Poison snakes are lying down with little babies today (Isiah 65:25)
Lions do not eat lambs today (Isaiah 11:6–9; )
Jesus is reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world today (Isaiah 2:4)
Everyone is worshiping God today (Isaiah 2:2–3)

Now, I said all of that to say this to you with all due respect and love......we (you & me) will always be at odds over the Scriptures with your idea of Christian doctrine. That is exactly why over time, we have seemed to be discussing those things in a circular conversation.

Now, in the reality of life, I have personally dealt with hundreds of deaths, tears, suffering of my friends and family, and the ramifications of sin to entertain the idea that Satan is somehow today bound and we do not see what is happening all around us!!!!
What is happening is that Satan is ALIVE and WELL and working harder than ever.

My encouragement to you today is that you do some more in depth Biblical study with the prayerful hope that God will make know to you what He has said and that it will become clear to you.

Blessing as always to you.

 

[Major]

I thought more about this topic and felt as though I needed to elaborate a little more on this subject just in case there are some reading this conversation who want to know more about it.

Revelation 20:2-3 ........
"He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

Is this a literal transaction?
Certainly it is.
The battle is literal!
The taking of the Beast is literal!
The taking of the False Prophet is literal;
The slaying of the kings and their armies is literal!
If and he is Satan then Satan is literal; and his binding must be equally literal. It will not resolve itself into anything else.

"HE" is an angel sent by God in verse #2 that will subdue Satan is anonymous. It is not Jesus Himself, nor is it Michael or Gabriel or any other high-ranking angel and any teaching otherwise is to READ INTO the Scriptures something that is not there.

So then, may I say up front that the Bible speaks powerfully to other aspects of the millennial earth.

Tragically, the Church through history has often ignored or denied the promise of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. The early church until Augustine almost universally believed in an earthly, historical reign of Jesus, initiated by His return. Tyconius (in the late 300’s) was the first to influentially champion a spiritualized interpretation, saying that this Millennium is now which is the false teaching of amillennialism and must be understood as a spiritual reign of Jesus, not a literal reign. Now comes the key to all of this.........His view was adopted by Augustine, the Roman Catholic Church and most Reformation theologians.

Now that we understand that history of Growing out of amillennialism is the doctrine of postmillennialsim, which says......... the millennium will happen in this age, before Jesus’ return – but that the church will bring it to pass.

Now then, please know and understand that NO WHERE in the Bible is it stated or even suggested that anyone or thing will bring the return other that the Lord Jesus Christ!

Yet the clear teaching of the Bible isn’t amillennialism or postmillennialism, but what is called premillennialism – which is what I am, and that is the teaching that Jesus Christ will return to this earth before the millennial earth, and He will establish and govern it directly.

There is no need to say that Satan is only bound in a spiritual sense, and Jesus only rules in a spiritual sense. When we consider the rest of the Scriptures, the earthly reign of Christ and His people on this earth is plainly taught in the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, & we see it in Psalms 72, Isaiah 2:2-4 11:4-9. Jere. 23:5-6 and about 100 more Scriptures.

In the New Testament we see it in Lk. 1:32-33. Matt. 5:18 and Lk 19:12-17 & among many other passages. All in all, there are more than 400 verses in more than 20 different passages in the Old Testament which deal with this time when Jesus Christ will rule and reign personally over planet earth LITERALLY.

I hope this is helpful and you are welcome add to this along with the Scriptures to validate your post!

 

[Marilyn C]

When we consider the rest of the Scriptures, the earthly reign of Christ and His people on this earth is plainly taught in the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, & we see it in Psalms 72, Isaiah 2:2-4 11:4-9. Jere. 23:5-6 and about 100 more Scriptures.

In the New Testament we see it in Lk. 1:32-33. Matt. 5:18 and Lk 19:12-17 & among many other passages. All in all, there are more than 400 verses in more than 20 different passages in the Old Testament which deal with this time when Jesus Christ will rule and reign personally over planet earth LITERALLY.

I hope this is helpful and you are welcome add to this along with the Scriptures to validate your post!

Hi Major,

I agree that the Lord will reign through Israel in the millennium for a thousand years, (as promised). I agree that the Lord comes to earth to deliver Israel and judge the nations of the earth. Then, I read how He sets up His kingdom rule through Israel.

But I do not believe the Lord will stay on the earth. I see from scripture that the Lord will return to His seat of power and authority, His own throne in the third heaven given by the Father. This is the heavenly Mount Zion. It is from that authority that the Lord will rule over all of God`s great Kingdom.

`...and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME. And He put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 20 - 22)

`I (the Father) have set My King on My holy hill of Zion...` (Ps. 2: 6)

`The LORD (Father) shall send the rod of your (Jesus) strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)

I believe when the Father sends Jesus for His Body, He takes them to His own throne in the third heaven. This is His own throne that the Father has given Him on Mount Zion. From there He will bring about the judgments upon the nations in the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation the Lord will come to earth with His angelic army to deliver Israel and deal with His enemies.

The Lord Jesus reveals Himself to Israel and appoints a regent King (David) and priests. (Ez. 37: 24. Isa. 66: 21) The Lord then is King over all the earth and returns on high.

`Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is King over all the earth. He will subdue the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us, the excellence of Jacob whom He loves.

God has gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.

Sing praises to God, sing praises! For God is King of all the earth; sing praises with understanding. God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne, the princes of the people have gathered together, the people of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God. He is greatly exalted.` (Ps. 47)

Had you ever considered that?

 

[Prim90]

Prim,
Why do you believe that Satan has been bound. As I read Revelations if he were already bound then Jesus would be sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem and we would be living in peace and no longer learn war. Clearly we still have wars and evil is still in this world. Will you please elaborate?

Dave I do elaborate the matter in post 13 the binding of Satan occurred in reference to Satan losing his authority and power over the nations of the world . Israel was the only place the light did shine to some degree before the coming of Christ. What the first Adam lost the 2nd Adam Christ is reclaiming with victory over Satan whilest here upon earth the great commission continues to the the 4 corners of the world Satans strongholds continue to be torn down..Doesn't mean that Satan is still not active only that he cannot fully deceive the nations fully as he did before until the appointed time when he is loosed for a season. Yes there is still much as evil. But that is a matter for God when he decides to put all his enemies under his feet which will probably happen when the last of his lords sheep are safely in the pen

Doesn't 1 Peter 5:8 tell us that the devil is free to roam about?

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Dave once again no one disputes that Satan still has power but just not the power he held over the nations of the world before the coming of Christ. The strong man has been disarmed which is metaphorically used as referring to Satan. Think of it as a military campaign Israel is the beachhead from where Christ has triumphantly expanded his gospel to the 4 corners of the world. He has been powerless to overcome that. The God shall account for every sheep foreknown to him. Dave Perhaps it be a matter of frolicking around too closely in the bush that you have failed to appreciate the full beauty of the forest surrounding you . As to the Roaring lion. Well let him roar as much as he likes. He will be allowed for a short season to deceive the nations again. He will have his moment and than the God will have his moment wth him. The lake of fire does come to mind. Yours Prim

 

[Prim90]

Thanks for asking Prim.

What I actually said was that from Resurrection of Jesus TO the Rapture is the Church Age or as many call it the Day of Grace. I am blessed to be able to explain it to you.

That time span is then the time between the 69th and 70th Week of Daniels prophecy. Daniel’s prayer in Daniel 9 3-19 refers to the fulfillment of a specific seventy-year period, the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity (as prophesied by Jeremiah). Daniel received the seventy weeks prophecy in response to his prayer. The “weeks” are sets of seven years. The prophecy foretells a period of seven times seventy weeks yet to come, or seventy seven-year periods. Seventy seven-year periods are 490 years.

The prophecy specifies that “from the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks [49 years] and sixty-two weeks [434 years]. . . . Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing” as seen in Daniel 9:25-26 which is exactly when the Messiah, Jesus the Christ was crucified or "Cut Off".

According to the prophecy, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem there would be seven seven-year periods and sixty-two more seven-year periods—or 483 years—until the Messiah would show up. After the culmination of the 62 seven-year periods, or after 483rd year, the Messiah would be cut off.

Because Jesus was Cut Off/Crucified BEFORE the 490 year prophecy, that leaves SEVEN (7) years yet to be completed. THAT then is the Age of Grace of the Church age.

You see Prim......Jesus did not come as the Messiah to the Gentiles. He came as the Messiah/Saviour to Israel!!!!!!
Isreal rejected their Messiah and killed Him and at that point the Father turned to the Gentiles allowed the Gentiles to accept Jesus by faith and be saved from sin and started His Church.

So, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days. This is the equivalent of 476 years and 25 days, using our modern Gregorian calendar’s 365-day year or the EXACT day that Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday before His Crucifixion presenting Himself to Jerusalem as their Messiah.

Then you asked me..........
"so that means that we CANNOT expect or should we expect a time limit".

I said that in responce to your trying to question the literal meaning of the word One Thousand Years. You suggested that there is a "time limit" on the church age and I said that there are NO Scriptures that say that anywhere in the Bible.
We can not say that One Thousand Years is not literal on one hand and then suggest that there is a time limit on the Age of Grace.

It is always a blessing to talk to you and I hope this info helps you.

Thanks for asking Prim.

What I actually said was that from Resurrection of Jesus TO the Rapture is the Church Age or as many call it the Day of Grace. I am blessed to be able to explain it to you.

That time span is then the time between the 69th and 70th Week of Daniels prophecy. Daniel’s prayer in Daniel 9 3-19 refers to the fulfillment of a specific seventy-year period, the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity (as prophesied by Jeremiah). Daniel received the seventy weeks prophecy in response to his prayer. The “weeks” are sets of seven years. The prophecy foretells a period of seven times seventy weeks yet to come, or seventy seven-year periods. Seventy seven-year periods are 490 years.

The prophecy specifies that “from the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks [49 years] and sixty-two weeks [434 years]. . . . Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing” as seen in Daniel 9:25-26 which is exactly when the Messiah, Jesus the Christ was crucified or "Cut Off".

According to the prophecy, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem there would be seven seven-year periods and sixty-two more seven-year periods—or 483 years—until the Messiah would show up. After the culmination of the 62 seven-year periods, or after 483rd year, the Messiah would be cut off.

Because Jesus was Cut Off/Crucified BEFORE the 490 year prophecy, that leaves SEVEN (7) years yet to be completed. THAT then is the Age of Grace of the Church age.

You see Prim......Jesus did not come as the Messiah to the Gentiles. He came as the Messiah/Saviour to Israel!!!!!!
Isreal rejected their Messiah and killed Him and at that point the Father turned to the Gentiles allowed the Gentiles to accept Jesus by faith and be saved from sin and started His Church.

So, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days. This is the equivalent of 476 years and 25 days, using our modern Gregorian calendar’s 365-day year or the EXACT day that Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday before His Crucifixion presenting Himself to Jerusalem as their Messiah.

Then you asked me..........
"so that means that we CANNOT expect or should we expect a time limit".

I said that in responce to your trying to question the literal meaning of the word One Thousand Years. You suggested that there is a "time limit" on the church age and I said that there are NO Scriptures that say that anywhere in the Bible.
We can not say that One Thousand Years is not literal on one hand and then suggest that there is a time limit on the Age of Grace.

It is always a blessing to talk to you and I hope this info helps you.

Major thank you for the information provided. You mention the Gregorian calendar which commenced in 1582. I find some funny. That be when everyone went to bed on October 4th to awake next day to October 15th 1582. The Julian calander certainly needed updating after some 1500 years due to the slippage of time over leap years. The Gregorian calendar certainly fixed that problem. The history of calendars is intriguing and an interesting one. There be a number of calendars amongst Israel throughout their history. From civil and festival calendars along with calendars in the lands they sojourned or were were captive in such as Babylon I think at the time of Christ it was practical observation of the first crescent of the new moon and some different from the latter revisions of the Jewish calendar right up to the present day they probably used the Julian calendar too that had been in circulation since 40 BC. I’m sure that Gregorian calendar with all the latest gadgets in astronomy and computer mapping isn’t far off the mark in evaluating all things . Major thank you your reply to my enquiry. You emply that in Daniel 9:25-26 that the Messiah or Prince is cut off meaning crucified. Leaving 7 unfulfilled years that is to be fulfilled at a later date when the rapture of the church occurs. May I ask is there a time gap here that demands this ? I add verse 27 it doesn't to appear so. V27 says that the prince shall confirm a covenant. Christ is the Prince. Christ is the new covenant paid for fully in his blood. Christ was the reason for the cessation of the sacrifice. Both V 26-27 mention the people of the prince shall come and destroy the city and and sanctuary until the end of the wars desolation leaving it desolate. I’m assuming and only assuming that people of the Prince be Gods instrument of judgement upon Israel as it was when he used the Babylonians and the Syrians as his rod of punishment. Only this time it be the Roman’s in the Jewish - Roman war of AD 66 to AD 70 . Major this is already fulfilled prophecy if that be the case . Luke 21: 20-24 does verify that very prophecy I see no connection in how this brings about the rapture of the church perhaps you could explain some more. Yours Prim

 

[In Awe of Him]

WOW..... Prim90 .... You must have gotten a new phone that prints Xtra Large photos. HA.... WONDERFUL for the visually impaired... I did NOT have to take my glasses off.

 

[Dave F.]

Prim,
Thank you for your response. I think we have very different definitions of the events of Revelation 20, for context I am posting the first 7 verses. Please note verse 4 (when did that happen?) and verse 7 which states that satan was in a prison (not free to roam). This is why I believe that this is a future event.

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

God bless you, sister.

 

[Major]

Major thank you for the information provided. You mention the Gregorian calendar which commenced in 1582. I find some funny. That be when everyone went to bed on October 4th to awake next day to October 15th 1582. The Julian calander certainly needed updating after some 1500 years due to the slippage of time over leap years. The Gregorian calendar certainly fixed that problem. The history of calendars is intriguing and an interesting one. There be a number of calendars amongst Israel throughout their history. From civil and festival calendars along with calendars in the lands they sojourned or were were captive in such as Babylon I think at the time of Christ it was practical observation of the first crescent of the new moon and some different from the latter revisions of the Jewish calendar right up to the present day they probably used the Julian calendar too that had been in circulation since 40 BC. I’m sure that Gregorian calendar with all the latest gadgets in astronomy and computer mapping isn’t far off the mark in evaluating all things View attachment 11902View attachment 11904View attachment 11903. Major thank you your reply to my enquiry. You emply that in Daniel 9:25-26 that the Messiah or Prince is cut off meaning crucified. Leaving 7 unfulfilled years that is to be fulfilled at a later date when the rapture of the church occurs. May I ask is there a time gap here that demands this ? I add verse 27 it doesn't to appear so. V27 says that the prince shall confirm a covenant. Christ is the Prince. Christ is the new covenant paid for fully in his blood. Christ was the reason for the cessation of the sacrifice. Both V 26-27 mention the people of the prince shall come and destroy the city and and sanctuary until the end of the wars desolation leaving it desolate. I’m assuming and only assuming that people of the Prince be Gods instrument of judgement upon Israel as it was when he used the Babylonians and the Syrians as his rod of punishment. Only this time it be the Roman’s in the Jewish - Roman war of AD 66 to AD 70 . Major this is already fulfilled prophecy if that be the case . Luke 21: 20-24 does verify that very prophecy I see no connection in how this brings about the rapture of the church perhaps you could explain some more. Yours Prim View attachment 11905

You said.......
" Major this is already fulfilled prophecy if that be the case . Luke 21: 20-24 does verify that very prophecy I see no connection in how this brings about the rapture of the church perhaps you could explain some more. "

Prim.....As i have said, there is NO need for me to give you more information. YOU have already rejected the "Premillennial" Rapture of the Church in the Scripture in favor of the Preterist opinion.

You are also denying the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 of the 70 weeks.

It does not matter how much information of Scriptures I give you, you do not have the ability to accept them because of the Preterist position you believe in.

Therefore, I am going to end my part of this conversation as we both know that it will be a circular conversation and I refuse to be involved in that process because it lead to nowhere.

Happy Jesus birthday!

 

[Major]

Hi Major,

I agree that the Lord will reign through Israel in the millennium for a thousand years, (as promised). I agree that the Lord comes to earth to deliver Israel and judge the nations of the earth. Then, I read how He sets up His kingdom rule through Israel.

But I do not believe the Lord will stay on the earth. I see from scripture that the Lord will return to His seat of power and authority, His own throne in the third heaven given by the Father. This is the heavenly Mount Zion. It is from that authority that the Lord will rule over all of God`s great Kingdom.

`...and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME. And He put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 20 - 22)

`I (the Father) have set My King on My holy hill of Zion...` (Ps. 2: 6)

`The LORD (Father) shall send the rod of your (Jesus) strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)

I believe when the Father sends Jesus for His Body, He takes them to His own throne in the third heaven. This is His own throne that the Father has given Him on Mount Zion. From there He will bring about the judgments upon the nations in the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation the Lord will come to earth with His angelic army to deliver Israel and deal with His enemies.

The Lord Jesus reveals Himself to Israel and appoints a regent King (David) and priests. (Ez. 37: 24. Isa. 66: 21) The Lord then is King over all the earth and returns on high.

`Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is King over all the earth. He will subdue the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us, the excellence of Jacob whom He loves.

God has gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.

Sing praises to God, sing praises! For God is King of all the earth; sing praises with understanding. God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne, the princes of the people have gathered together, the people of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God. He is greatly exalted.` (Ps. 47)

Had you ever considered that?

Yes mam I have and thank you for the conversation and question. Now allow me to ask you if you have considered..........

Zechariah 14:9.....
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
This is a great verse because it states that the Lord will be the one and only king over all the earth. "

Joel 3:17 ........adds that
"Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy . and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.'

Then Isaiah 9:7 adds that the Messiah will have a government. He will sit on the throne of David.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, ON the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

Then we read in Matthew 19:28.........
“Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
Yes, I agree 100% in that David will be the "Vice President" of the Earth under the theocratic rule of the Lord Jesus.

You stated..........
"I believe when the Father sends Jesus for His Body, He takes them to His own throne in the third heaven. This is His own throne that the Father has given Him on Mount Zion. From there He will bring about the judgments upon the nations in the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation the Lord will come to earth with His angelic army to deliver Israel and deal with His enemies."

His body = The Church.
Tribulation = The 7 year prophecy of Daniel 9 which is yet to come.
The Lord will come = the 2n Coming of Christ as seen in Revelation 19.

Yes, I agree. That is the "Premillennial" Rapture teaching of the Scriptures which I have believed and taught.

Please continue your excellent work of getting out the Word of God.

 

[Major]

Prim,
Thank you for your response. I think we have very different definitions of the events of Revelation 20, for context I am posting the first 7 verses. Please note verse 4 (when did that happen?) and verse 7 which states that satan was in a prison (not free to roam). This is why I believe that this is a future event.

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

God bless you, sister.

Dave. I hope you realize that our sister Prim is espousing the Preterist position.

I am sure you know this from what you have already posted in the past, but Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events.

There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, Preterism is Not "some minor disagreements".

It has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical and literal reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem.

 

[Dave F.]

Thank you, Major.

 

[Prim90]

Prime, the reason why we are having this dicussion is actually very simple.

YOU just said............
"Ahd that being that Satan has been bound now for nearly 2000 yrs and not a thousand years beginning when our Lords ministry finished here upon earth vanquishing Satans dominion and power over the earth as our Lords gospel now continues to expand and flourish unto the four corners of the world. This is why Satan being bound for a thousand yrs is to be taken figuratively as a longer period of time. And of course there may be symbology as a possibility as well. Yours Prim".

From YOUR own words that you just posted, you are approaching Escotology with an "Amilliennialist view.

This is why you said you did not accept the time frame between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9 as the Church Age.
This is why you reject the literal meaning of the Greek word used to define One THousand Years and are working so hard to validate that.

As such, by your own words, view Satan as having been bound at the cross, the resurrection in connection with the kingdom as occurring when the graves of some of the saints were opened at the resurrection of Christ, Pentecost as being the sign of Christ’s kingdom come on earth, and the persecution of the early church as fulfilling, at least in part, the prophecies of the tribulation period.

Now, to believe that means that we are now living in the 1000 year rule of Christ because as YOU said, Satan has been bound.

That would then by common sense and Biblical truth mean that there is.........
NO SIN today.
No tears or suffering today (Revelation 21:4)
No death today (Ezekiel 34:16 Isiah 65:20)
Poison snakes are lying down with little babies today (Isiah 65:25)
Lions do not eat lambs today (Isaiah 11:6–9; )
Jesus is reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world today (Isaiah 2:4)
Everyone is worshiping God today (Isaiah 2:2–3)

Now, I said all of that to say this to you with all due respect and love......we (you & me) will always be at odds over the Scriptures with your idea of Christian doctrine. That is exactly why over time, we have seemed to be discussing those things in a circular conversation.

Now, in the reality of life, I have personally dealt with hundreds of deaths, tears, suffering of my friends and family, and the ramifications of sin to entertain the idea that Satan is somehow today bound and we do not see what is happening all around us!!!!
What is happening is that Satan is ALIVE and WELL and working harder than ever.

My encouragement to you today is that you do some more in depth Biblical study with the prayerful hope that God will make know to you what He has said and that it will become clear to you.

Blessing as always to you.

Major there be a number

You said.......
" Major this is already fulfilled prophecy if that be the case . Luke 21: 20-24 does verify that very prophecy I see no connection in how this brings about the rapture of the church perhaps you could explain some more. "

Prim.....As i have said, there is NO need for me to give you more information. YOU have already rejected the "Premillennial" Rapture of the Church in the Scripture in favor of the Preterist opinion.

You are also denying the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 of the 70 weeks.

It does not matter how much information of Scriptures I give you, you do not have the ability to accept them because of the Preterist position you believe in.

Therefore, I am going to end my part of this conversation as we both know that it will be a circular conversation and I refuse to be involved in that process because it lead to nowhere.

Happy Jesus birthday!

Me awake today to find the Major has me now charged as a Preterist yesterday you charged me as a Amillennialist. I’d wish you’d make up your mind. Perhaps tomorrow you will charge me a historicist .But something me does know is that you do misrepresent the normal preterist view of scripture. Actually Major every Christian is a preterist to some degree. The moment you believe that even one bible prophecy has been fulfilled that makes you a preterist. Normal preterists simply believe that more prophecy has been fulfilled than others that is all. What you telling Dave in post 31 is what a hypa preterist believes a very small minority within the preterist movement. I can’t recall you ever asking me what I believe you just label as if it’s your God given right to do without even asking a person what they believe.. I have said enough. Major I wish you and your family a happy festive season too.

 

[Prim90]

Thank you, Major.

Dave I have read your post I will try and reply to post tomorrow as best I can . Yours Prim

 

[In Awe of Him]

Y'all need to head over to the Garage.... SIT in Bob's chair... and let Mr. Moose make you swans in raspberry sauce. BEST experience EVER.

Bless you Mrs. Prim... You are loved here and your contributions matter... even though I barely understand these deep debating posts.

God bless everyone.... WE sure do need it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes mam I have and thank you for the conversation and question. Now allow me to ask you if you have considered..........

Zechariah 14:9.....
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
This is a great verse because it states that the Lord will be the one and only king over all the earth. "

Joel 3:17 ........adds that
"Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy . and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.'

Then Isaiah 9:7 adds that the Messiah will have a government. He will sit on the throne of David.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, ON the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

Then we read in Matthew 19:28.........
“Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
Yes, I agree 100% in that David will be the "Vice President" of the Earth under the theocratic rule of the Lord Jesus.

You stated..........
"I believe when the Father sends Jesus for His Body, He takes them to His own throne in the third heaven. This is His own throne that the Father has given Him on Mount Zion. From there He will bring about the judgments upon the nations in the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation the Lord will come to earth with His angelic army to deliver Israel and deal with His enemies."

His body = The Church.
Tribulation = The 7 year prophecy of Daniel 9 which is yet to come.
The Lord will come = the 2n Coming of Christ as seen in Revelation 19.

Yes, I agree. That is the "Premillennial" Rapture teaching of the Scriptures which I have believed and taught.

Please continue your excellent work of getting out the Word of God.

Thank you for your reply Major,

Yes I have considered whether the Lord is ruling ON the earth or OVER the earth. And looking at all the scriptures pertaining to the Lord`s OWN throne I see that it is His seat of power and authority given by the Father in (symbolic) Mount Zion in the third heaven. (Ps. 2: 6)

The throne of David, is so named because the Lord appointed David as king and to his descendants. It is an earthly throne and will have an earthly representative David, also called the Prince, to be regent ruler. (Ez. 46: 16)

When God speaks of `on the throne,` `sits on His glorious throne,` it is not saying that Jesus is sitting on a literal throne, but has the authority and power from the Father - from the third heaven, in the New Jerusalem, and on the throne of David on earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ rules over ALL of God`s great kingdom from the third heaven, in the Universe and on the earth.

One day we will know. Still good to discuss God`s word and lift Him up in our midst.

Blessings also. Marilyn.

 

[Major]

Thank you for your reply Major,

Yes I have considered whether the Lord is ruling ON the earth or OVER the earth. And looking at all the scriptures pertaining to the Lord`s OWN throne I see that it is His seat of power and authority given by the Father in (symbolic) Mount Zion in the third heaven. (Ps. 2: 6)

The throne of David, is so named because the Lord appointed David as king and to his descendants. It is an earthly throne and will have an earthly representative David, also called the Prince, to be regent ruler. (Ez. 46: 16)

When God speaks of `on the throne,` `sits on His glorious throne,` it is not saying that Jesus is sitting on a literal throne, but has the authority and power from the Father - from the third heaven, in the New Jerusalem, and on the throne of David on earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ rules over ALL of God`s great kingdom from the third heaven, in the Universe and on the earth.

One day we will know. Still good to discuss God`s word and lift Him up in our midst.

Blessings also. Marilyn.

I appreciate your thoughts sister but I do not agree.

Those who argue a "figuratively or symbolic" usually use 2 Peter 3:8 that reads,........
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

We need to understand that that Scripture is used in the "context" of God's patience in order to allow more people to turn to Christ so it really does not apply to a time frame.

I was educated in the literal understanding of Revelation 20:1-7, where the passage that most clearly speaks of the millennial kingdom, specifically notes a 1,000-year period four different times. The emphasis appears to be on the exact literal time of the millennial kingdom rather than a figurative interpretation.

Revelation 20:4 tells us concerning the righteous........
“they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

Shall we reject the number 1,000 and say that it is symbolic? If it is symbolic, how much of Revelation shall we say is symbolic? If we do that, then the meaning of Revelation is open to anyone’s imagination and may I say that that right there is where all the arguments start from!

Among those who take that "symbolic position", there are many different meanings, and they significantly disagree with each other.

But if we accept all of these scriptures literally, then the book is much easier to understand and why would the Holy Spirit want us to be confused????

My response which NO ONE has to agree with is that the kingdom is real, and it lasts for 1,000 years and Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

I enjoy your comments!

 

[Major]

Major there be a number
Me awake today to find the Major has me now charged as a Preterist yesterday you charged me as a Amillennialist. I’d wish you’d make up your mind. Perhaps tomorrow you will charge me a historicist .But something me does know is that you do misrepresent the normal preterist view of scripture. Actually Major every Christian is a preterist to some degree. The moment you believe that even one bible prophecy has been fulfilled that makes you a preterist. Normal preterists simply believe that more prophecy has been fulfilled than others that is all. What you telling Dave in post 31 is what a hypa preterist believes a very small minority within the preterist movement. I can’t recall you ever asking me what I believe you just label as if it’s your God given right to do without even asking a person what they believe.. I have said enough. Major I wish you and your family a happy festive season too.

Sister, I apologize. My responce was directly to your own words.

Allow me to be very clear in that in post #26 you said.........
" Only this time it be the Roman’s in the Jewish - Roman war of AD 66 to AD 70 . Major this is already fulfilled prophecy if that be the case . Luke 21: 20-24 does verify that very prophecy I see no connection in how this brings about the rapture of the church perhaps you could explain some more."
In post #31 I said..........
"Dave. I hope you realize that our sister Prim is espousing the Preterist position."

That does NOT say that I called you anything at all. I said clearly......."sister Prim is espousing the Preterist position."

Now as for call you an "AMinimalist," please go back and read post #22 again.
It is there that I copied and pasted a response to you ----------
YOU just said............(Prim)
"Ahd that being that Satan has been bound now for nearly 2000 yrs and not a thousand years beginning when our Lords ministry finished here upon earth vanquishing Satans dominion and power over the earth as our Lords gospel now continues to expand and flourish unto the four corners of the world. This is why Satan being bound for a thousand yrs is to be taken figuratively as a longer period of time. And of course there may be symbology as a possibility as well. Yours Prim".

My literal words were......
"From YOUR own words that you just posted, you are approaching Escotology with an "Amilliennialist view."

Again, and I want you to understand that I did NOT CALL you anything.
I simply said that you ARE APPROACHING THAT VIEW.
That is a far cry from calling names. I simply commented on what you posted and what you posted is exactly what the Preterist position is whether it be partial or full.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding that my have been perceived.

So, to answer you own question, are you a FULL or a PARTIAL Preterist then I can call you correctly as you want to be referred to as.

 

[Marilyn C]

I appreciate your thoughts sister but I do not agree.

Those who argue a "figuratively or symbolic" usually use 2 Peter 3:8 that reads,........
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

We need to understand that that Scripture is used in the "context" of God's patience in order to allow more people to turn to Christ so it really does not apply to a time frame.

I was educated in the literal understanding of Revelation 20:1-7, where the passage that most clearly speaks of the millennial kingdom, specifically notes a 1,000-year period four different times. The emphasis appears to be on the exact literal time of the millennial kingdom rather than a figurative interpretation.

Revelation 20:4 tells us concerning the righteous........
“they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

Shall we reject the number 1,000 and say that it is symbolic? If it is symbolic, how much of Revelation shall we say is symbolic? If we do that, then the meaning of Revelation is open to anyone’s imagination and may I say that that right there is where all the arguments start from!

Among those who take that "symbolic position", there are many different meanings, and they significantly disagree with each other.

But if we accept all of these scriptures literally, then the book is much easier to understand and why would the Holy Spirit want us to be confused????

My response which NO ONE has to agree with is that the kingdom is real, and it lasts for 1,000 years and Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

I enjoy your comments!

Hi Major,

I think you misread my notes. I did not say the thousand years was symbolic, I said that Mount Zion is symbolic and it is for the Lord`s rule in the third heaven by the Father. (Ps. 2: 6)

Now Rev. 20: 4 (in context as you said ) `And I saw throne, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.`

And that is quite detailed as to who will live again after being martyred in the trib. It certainly is not those in the body of Christ as you would agree.

Now my questions to you are -

1. Why are people dying in the millennium when you say the Lord is physically there? (Isa. 65: 20)

2. Why is there a king and priests there when you say the Lord who is a kingpriest is physically there? (Ez. 37: 24. Isa. 66: 21)

3. And why does Israel have sacrifices when you say that the Lord is physically there? (Ez. 44: 15, 29 & 30, 46: 12 - 15)

4. And why is there a temple there when you say that the Lord is physically there? (Ez. 44)

 

[forgiven61]

would the real prophecy student please stand up.. here is the deal the millilumen . the rapture , the 2nd coming of Christ, and the judgement of the world. will take place at God discretion aka time frame myself i am a pan Millennium est as long as i am abiding in Christ it will all pan out