Accepting what the church holds with as being the truth, regardless or not if found in the Bible? Or believing in the Bible, yet having bad hermeneutics?
Have you or your Church had to deal with 'disruptive Charismatics?"
- Thread starter YeshuaFan
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That might apply IF there was not clear commands from God for us to not be involved with Satanic activities.
Leviticus 19:31.....
"Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God."
Galatians 5:19-21....
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who dosuch things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
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Thank you to all those who have replied to my question.
Here was my question.
Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?
Reason 1. 1 Corinth. 9: 1 & 1 Cor. 15: 5 – 7 All Apostles had to have seen the risen Lord. More than 500 followers saw the risen Lord.
`Am I (Paul) not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? `
Reply. No scripture says that or even infers that. That verse in only for Paul.
And Timothy would have been too young to have seen the Lord.
`Let no one despise your youth.` (1 Tim. 4: 12)
Here was my question.
Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?
Reason 1. 1 Corinth. 9: 1 & 1 Cor. 15: 5 – 7 All Apostles had to have seen the risen Lord. More than 500 followers saw the risen Lord.
`Am I (Paul) not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? `
Reply. No scripture says that or even infers that. That verse in only for Paul.
And Timothy would have been too young to have seen the Lord.
`Let no one despise your youth.` (1 Tim. 4: 12)
Reason 2. Acts 1: 21. This disqualifies any today being an Apostle.
`Therefore, of these men (Joseph and Matthias) who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to the day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)
Reply. Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ.
`Therefore let the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)
The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and for building up the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries of Christ the Head are for -
` the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…` (Eph. 4: 12)
`Therefore, of these men (Joseph and Matthias) who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to the day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)
Reply. Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ.
`Therefore let the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)
The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and for building up the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries of Christ the Head are for -
` the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…` (Eph. 4: 12)
Reason 3. Eph. 4: 11 – 13 The word `gave,` is in the past tense.
`Christ…….when He ascended…..gave some to be apostle, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers…`
Reply. Yes, the word gave is in the past tense because it refers to when the Lord ascended. It was then he gave the 5-fold ministries. If it was only for then then there would also be no more teachers, pastors or evangelists.
The rest of the sentence tells us when those 5-fold ministries would not be given any more.
`TILL….` till the end of the first century? No!
`TILL…` till the last of the 12 apostles died? No!
`TILL…` till the Bible was complete? No!
`TILL…` till people did not receive them? No!
`TILL…` their denomination says there are no more? No!
And so on for all the false reasons people make up and twist God`s word or fail to read it correctly.
Christ…….when He ascended…..`gave some to be apostle, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,
TILL WE ALL COME TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH AND TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, TO A PERFECT MAN, TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 – 13)
Have we together come to the unity of the faith?
Have we together the full understanding of the Son of God?
Have we as the Body of Christ come to complete manhood to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?
When the Holy Spirit brings us to complete manhood, the new man, (male and female characteristics) then the Lord will take us to His own throne where we will reign with Him as KINGPRIESTS.
`Christ…….when He ascended…..gave some to be apostle, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers…`
Reply. Yes, the word gave is in the past tense because it refers to when the Lord ascended. It was then he gave the 5-fold ministries. If it was only for then then there would also be no more teachers, pastors or evangelists.
The rest of the sentence tells us when those 5-fold ministries would not be given any more.
`TILL….` till the end of the first century? No!
`TILL…` till the last of the 12 apostles died? No!
`TILL…` till the Bible was complete? No!
`TILL…` till people did not receive them? No!
`TILL…` their denomination says there are no more? No!
And so on for all the false reasons people make up and twist God`s word or fail to read it correctly.
Christ…….when He ascended…..`gave some to be apostle, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,
TILL WE ALL COME TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH AND TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, TO A PERFECT MAN, TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 – 13)
Have we together come to the unity of the faith?
Have we together the full understanding of the Son of God?
Have we as the Body of Christ come to complete manhood to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?
When the Holy Spirit brings us to complete manhood, the new man, (male and female characteristics) then the Lord will take us to His own throne where we will reign with Him as KINGPRIESTS.
Reason 4. Titus 1 and 1 Tim. 3. Saying that these are qualifications for Pastors, deacons and Elders but not for Apostles and Prophets.
Reply. Those scriptures are certainly for deacons and Elders. However there is NO mention of Pastor, or teacher or evangelist, or Apostle or Prophet. Why? Because they are ALL Elders.
`And from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.` (Acts 20: 17)
`Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.` (Acts 20: 28)
The former referring to the man, the latter to a function of the office. Thus, all the 5-fold ministries are also Elders. But not all Elders are of the 5-fold ministries.
Reply. Those scriptures are certainly for deacons and Elders. However there is NO mention of Pastor, or teacher or evangelist, or Apostle or Prophet. Why? Because they are ALL Elders.
`And from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.` (Acts 20: 17)
`Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.` (Acts 20: 28)
The former referring to the man, the latter to a function of the office. Thus, all the 5-fold ministries are also Elders. But not all Elders are of the 5-fold ministries.
Reason 5. Prophets. Heb. 1: 1 – 2. The Greek tense `has spoken` is in the past tense as well as Jude 3 – 4 `once delivered.
Reply. Yes, God has spoken to us by His Son. And then the Son speaks to His Body by His Holy Spirit.
`I (Jesus) still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears he will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
He will glorify me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you. `(John 16: 12 – 14)
The Jude scripture refers to the faith that was once delivered to the saints. And it is not that we don`t have knowledge of that faith for we certainly do as disciples were made and the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth.
And over the centuries false teachings came in but the Holy Spirit gave insight to certain men who clarified the truth which helped to build up the Body of Christ in the truth of Christ – Salvation, believers baptism, holy living, the work of the Holy Spirit etc.
NOTE: Prophecy `he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.` (1 Cor. 14: 3)
Reply. Yes, God has spoken to us by His Son. And then the Son speaks to His Body by His Holy Spirit.
`I (Jesus) still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears he will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
He will glorify me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you. `(John 16: 12 – 14)
The Jude scripture refers to the faith that was once delivered to the saints. And it is not that we don`t have knowledge of that faith for we certainly do as disciples were made and the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth.
And over the centuries false teachings came in but the Holy Spirit gave insight to certain men who clarified the truth which helped to build up the Body of Christ in the truth of Christ – Salvation, believers baptism, holy living, the work of the Holy Spirit etc.
NOTE: Prophecy `he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.` (1 Cor. 14: 3)
Reason 6. Heb. 2: 1 – 4 saying that the Apostles did signs and wonders to confirm the person and ministry of Jesus and it was not ongoing.
Reply. `Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we should drift away.
For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.
God bearing witness both with sign and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?` (Heb. 2: 1 – 4)
Yes, the confirmation was by some of the early apostles. However, The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God the Father have NOT finished yet distributing –
`Now there are diversities of gifts but the same Spirit.
There are differences of ministries but the same Lord.
Ans there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for the profit of all. `(1 Cor. 12: 4 – 7)
Reply. `Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we should drift away.
For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.
God bearing witness both with sign and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?` (Heb. 2: 1 – 4)
Yes, the confirmation was by some of the early apostles. However, The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God the Father have NOT finished yet distributing –
`Now there are diversities of gifts but the same Spirit.
There are differences of ministries but the same Lord.
Ans there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for the profit of all. `(1 Cor. 12: 4 – 7)
Reason 7. No scriptural reference. Saying that because there is no ongoing revelation then there are no more Apostles.
Reply. I certainly agree that there is NO more revelation beyond what is in God`s word. However, that does not then mean there are no more Apostles.
Christ the chief Apostle who is building His house –
`consider the Apostle and high priest of our confession, Christ Jesus….for this one has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honour than the house…` (Heb. 33: 1 & 3)
`I (Jesus) will build my church…` (Matt. 16: 18)
`And so I (Apostle Paul) have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man`s foundation.` (Rom. 15: 20)
No more revelation but oh so needed clarification of truth that builds the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit - `He will guide you into ALL TRUTH…` (John 16: 13)
As the Apostle Paul warned that there would come false teachers (Acts 20: 19 & 20) we can see that over the centuries. But as the great Apostle, builder of His Body, said He would lead us into ALL TRUTH.
We remember men like Luther, (Salvation), John Spilsbury and Thomas Helwys, (believer`s baptism) and many more who the Lord the Head of His body gave clarification of a certain truth till we today have the `whole Counsel of God` (Acts 20: 27) available to us.
We need to remember that people were ostracized or even martyred for the truths they stood for. And even today many still are.
Reply. I certainly agree that there is NO more revelation beyond what is in God`s word. However, that does not then mean there are no more Apostles.
Christ the chief Apostle who is building His house –
`consider the Apostle and high priest of our confession, Christ Jesus….for this one has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honour than the house…` (Heb. 33: 1 & 3)
`I (Jesus) will build my church…` (Matt. 16: 18)
`And so I (Apostle Paul) have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man`s foundation.` (Rom. 15: 20)
No more revelation but oh so needed clarification of truth that builds the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit - `He will guide you into ALL TRUTH…` (John 16: 13)
As the Apostle Paul warned that there would come false teachers (Acts 20: 19 & 20) we can see that over the centuries. But as the great Apostle, builder of His Body, said He would lead us into ALL TRUTH.
We remember men like Luther, (Salvation), John Spilsbury and Thomas Helwys, (believer`s baptism) and many more who the Lord the Head of His body gave clarification of a certain truth till we today have the `whole Counsel of God` (Acts 20: 27) available to us.
We need to remember that people were ostracized or even martyred for the truths they stood for. And even today many still are.
To me, in 1 Corth. 9:1 where Paul says "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord", tells me that having seen the risen Lord is what qualifies him as an apostle.
My suggestion would be.....how else could Paul have said what he said to make it any clearer than he did.
We have the complete written Word of God.
There is NO need to fortell future events as that what be ADDING to the Word of God.
What is need today is men who can and will "FORTHTELL" the Word of God by properly teaching its foundational truths as there were written.
The qualifications for an Apostle are found in Acts 1:21-22........where those Scriptures discusses the selection of a new apostle to replace Judas Iscariot, emphasizing the importance of being a witness to Jesus' ministry and resurrection.
"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”
The CONTEXT here is that Peter is explaining to the 120 Jesus-followers in the upper room that, before the Holy Spirit comes, they need to find a replacement for Judas Iscariot.
Peter sets the clear and easy to understand qualifications for Judas' replacement.
1. Jesus had said the apostles will be His "witnesses" (Acts 1:8), so they need someone who has witnessed Jesus. Throughout Jesus' three-year ministry, the Twelve disciples followed Him wherever He went, but they usually weren't alone. Regularly, crowds joined them, even when they weren't wanted. Some people would have stayed as long as they could, traveling with Jesus like groupies traveling with their favorite band. Peter's first requirement is that Judas' replacement was a part of this crowd.
2. He goes on to say the man must have been with them from the day of Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist until the ascension.
Those two Bible qualifications completely rule out anyone today who thinks that they are an Apostle.
It should be noted so as to eliminate any arguments that while Paul never claimed to be included among the original twelve, believers have recognized that Jesus appointed him as His special apostle to the Gentiles which is what we see in Gal. 1:1Galatians 1:1; 1 Corth. 9:1 Acts 26:16-18.1.
Also, just so that we are all on the same page and we do not get caught up in semantics, there are others in the early church referred to as “apostles” in Acts 14:4 14, Rom. 16:7 & 1 Thess 2:6, but they were called Apostles only in the sense that they were appointed, authorized, and sent by churches on special errands or by the Apostles themselves. These individuals bore the title “apostle” in a limited sense and did not possess all the qualifications of apostleship that the original twelve and Paul did.
Also, not matter how hard we work at it and not matter what we "feel or want", there is absolutly No biblical evidence that exists to indicate that these thirteen apostles were replaced when they died.
According to Acts 12:1-2 Jesus appointed the TWELLVE apostles to do the founding work of the Church, and foundations only need to be laid once. After the apostles’ deaths, other offices besides apostleship, not requiring an eyewitness relationship with Jesus, would carry on the work which would include today.
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The gift of prophecy for today would be the Holy Spirit bring illumination to a pastor or teacher to take the prophetic word principles and apply them towards a contemporary setting, but not as to giving forth extra biblical revelation
Until the time of the so called Pentecostal Asuza event in 1906, none in the historical Church had even seen that the Lord had continued sending prophets or apostles to the church, as they all agreed were no longer functioning in either office now , Only persons claiming to be either prophets or apsotles wewre papacy, ot those such as Joseph Smith or Ellen White
To be brutally honest, I have only ONE reason why anyone would believe that there can be Apostles today. They want to experience the "Sign Gifts" given to the Eleven Apostles in Mark 16. They want to speak in tongues, and raise the dead and heal the sick and survive snake bites and drink poison. All of those abilities point to one thing.........."Follow the money"!
IMHO, what we are seeing is the incredible diversity of viewpoint that exists in religion today which is startling and disconcerting. We are witnessing a breakdown of respect for authority in American culture, as well as a tremendous increase in personal opinion and feelings as the standard of authority which is the Bible.
One is likely to see anything and everything perpetrated in the name of religion and/or Christianity in these days we are living.
Maybe others are referring to someone else when they call others an "Apostle" but I am talking about an “apostle” as only one who can refer to individuals who were officially and divinely selected to serve as Jesus’ original representatives—“ambassadors” (2 Corinthians 5:20). Jesus handpicked the original twelve apostles (Matthew 10:1-5; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16; 9:1-2).
No matter how anyone twists the Scriptures, when we assemble all the relevant New Testament data, at least three qualifications emerge as prerequisite to one becoming an apostle in the official sense.
#1. An apostle had to have seen the Lord and been an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection which is exactly what we see in Acts 1:22; 22:14; 1 Cor. 9:1.
#2. An apostle had to be specifically selected by the Lord or the Holy Spirit and that is recorded in Matthew 10:5; Mark 3:13-14; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:26; 9:15; 22:14-15,21; 26:16.
#3. An apostle was invested with miraculous power to the extent that he could perform miracles. The power to perform miracles included the capability to confer the ability to work miracles to other individuals through the laying on of his hands and tat is what we read in Mark 3:15; 16:17-20; Luke 9:1-2; John 14:12,26; 15:24-27; 16:13; Acts 2:43; 4:29-31,33; 5:12,15-16; 6:6; 8:14-18; 19:6; 2 Timothy 1:6; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Romans 1:11; Hebrews 2:3-4.
Jesus referred to His bestowal of miraculous capability upon the apostles when He promised they would be “endued with power from on high” and to Them and only Them did the Sign Gifts apply to.
Hello YeshuaFan and Major;
Years ago I wrote a thesis titled Three Waves of the Spirit in the 20th Century, referring to the 1906 Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles. This revival was led by Preacher William J. Seymour. (This was the same time during the San Francisco earthquake.)
The revival grew and there were positive and negative results from Azusa. The positive being the broken barriers for all peoples who were encouraged to worship together. The negative was the seedling of division from the early start that became hard to manage because of the rapid growth, leading to splits and additional versions of the Pentecostal and Charismatic, or combined Pentecostal Charismatic movement.
To validate Major's point and Azusa, these are examples that has bled and contributed the divide into the other denominations of faith in today's Christian America and the world for that matter.
We pride ourselves of being a mixed race of nationalities and in the Church. But the prejudice has only increased, and sadly is whispered behind the Christian family home, which was supposed to be our Faith Foundation before we go out the door and into the community.
Our divides can breed prejudices and vice versa, not only people, but our faith is impacted as well, which Church and doctrine we decide that make us feel good, not so much where God calls us to serve Him.
Alas, this has been going on since the Old and New Testaments, making our faith in Christ and sharing the Gospels even more challenging.
So where do we go from here? We point to our Lord and Savior;
Jesus was spot on 2000 years ago when He taught Matthew 24, (This is always one of my go to studies) and verse 13;
But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. - RSV
One day when I go before God there will be things I didn't get right, or something I said/preached/taught to be in error. There's no way around it. I will still be accountable.
We can all do as the Spirit prompts us to stay the course daily with sound hermeneutics and interpretation of God's Word.
God bless you all.
Bob
The Apostles were to witness by words deed and power that Jesus was the promised Messiah and they also were to give forth to us the written revelation of the NT, so if any are claiming prophets and Apostles are for today, they must hold to ongoing revelations, so how could we then claim Joseph Smith and Ellen White were not "prophets", since the Bible no longer then would be an objective standard to guide us?
The thing is that the fruit that was spread form that so called revival event into the Church resulted in coming into local churches were heresies taught and held by the word of faith and prosperity pastors and preachers, kingdom now, basically its like people no longer saw God as who we should worship, but that we could become "little gods"
FWIW, I believe there are extremes on both sides of this aisle.