Have you or your Church had to deal with 'disruptive Charismatics?"

[Major]

Just curious, would you see the apostolic sign gifts still in operation, and modern day Apostles and prophets then?

What I have observed is that when the clear, simple easy to understand Word of God is taught, the heretics disappear in the light it sheds on their incorrect opinions.

Correct and fundamental Bible teaching always disarms those who are looking for the emotional experience in worship services.

 

[bobinfaith]

It seems to me that the squeaky wheel gets the most attention. Those of the NAR and Dominionist teachings are headed in the wrong direction with a power, authority and strange anointing NOT of our Lord. All that appeals to the pride of men or to those who are towards emotionalism. They will partner with the world system believing they can change, and fix it, but will go head long to God`s judgment. Meanwhile as the clear distinction between those of humble hearts following the Lord and these other hirelings, let us NOT throw out God`s truths that many stood for over the centuries - infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the 5-fold ministries of the ascended Lord and His eternal purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. Let us continue to encourage one another as we press toward the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3: 14)

Just curious, would you see the apostolic sign gifts still in operation, and modern day Apostles and prophets then?

Good morning, Marilyn C and YeshuaFan;

Marilyn shared, "let us NOT throw out God`s truths that many stood for over the centuries - infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the 5-fold ministries of the ascended Lord and His eternal purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. Let us continue to encourage one another as we press toward the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3: 14)"

Amen! As if God doesn't already know this of the world. He also sees His faithful seeking Him first daily and pressing on for the Kingdom.

YeshuaFan, many believers do believe the "apostolic" sign gifts, "modern day" apostles and prophets as still being existent. I personally don't, but discern these in the category of always being "up front," proclaiming their anointing and authority not of our God.

I do hear snips of their constant preaching and statements with a bleak attitude of the world and Kingdom but with very little substance toward the hope and trust in our God and His assurances. I believe this is the message believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit, share in today's Gospel Fluency, joy and peace.

Philippians 3:14, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. - ESV

Romans 15:13, Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. - KJV

God bless you both.

Bob

 

[YeshuaFan]

Good morning, Marilyn C and YeshuaFan;

Marilyn shared, "let us NOT throw out God`s truths that many stood for over the centuries - infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the 5-fold ministries of the ascended Lord and His eternal purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. Let us continue to encourage one another as we press toward the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3: 14)"

Amen! As if God doesn't already know this of the world. He also sees His faithful seeking Him first daily and pressing on for the Kingdom.

YeshuaFan, many believers do believe the "apostolic" sign gifts, "modern day" apostles and prophets as still being existent. I personally don't, but discern these in the category of always being "up front," proclaiming their anointing and authority not of our God.

I do hear snips of their constant preaching and statements with a bleak attitude of the world and Kingdom but with very little substance toward the hope and trust in our God and His assurances. I believe this is the message believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit, share in today's Gospel Fluency, joy and peace.

Philippians 3:14, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. - ESV

Romans 15:13, Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. - KJV

God bless you both.

Bob

I beleive that God can still heal and do miracles, but none gifted today to such such as Apostles were, nor are they any in office of Prophet/Apostle, as none since John died could speak forth or record down inspired revelations from God to us

 

[Marilyn C]

Just curious, would you see the apostolic sign gifts still in operation, and modern day Apostles and prophets then?

Hi YeshuaFan,

Thank you for asking. This is an excerpt from Apostle W.A.C. Rowe`s book `One Lord, One Faith.` written in the1950`s. He was my first Pastor.

The Apostolic sign gifts.

The Virtue Sign.

`Truely the signs of an Apostle were accomplished among you in all patience, (perseverance) in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12)

Fancy putting patience before wonders. We had never thought of patience as a sign. The virtue of patience. If the Apostleship needs anything, it needs patience. It is a divine virtue. `The God of all patience.` Without patience we can, as an Apostleship, squander what we have received. we can fail to finish the course.

Then what of the virtue of faithfulness? In Hebrews 3: 1 - 2 Christ Who is spoken of as `the Apostle` was declared to be `faithful to Him who appointed Him.` The true Apostles were men that were faithful to the end. The Apostles, the messengers, the sent ones, finished their circuit in the perfect will of God at the feet of the glorious Christ who sent them. Patience and faithfulness are lovely jewels side by side.

Humility is a virtue of an Apostleship that magnifies the Master; it is another sign. Neither as being `Lords over God`s heritage....` What is more wonderful than the meekness and humility of the Apostle-Christ? That is the spirit! Listen to true Apostleship! "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself?" (2 Cor. 11: 7) How it humbles us when we think of the exalted ministry of this servant of God. What of this? "You have reigned as kings.....God has set forth us the Apostles last...." (1 Cor. 4: 8 - 9)

All these and many other such virtue signs have their base in holiness, the great virtue sign, "Holy Apostles and Prophets...." (Eph. 3: 5)

Power needs passion to balance and control it. So does vision demand virtue. The supernatural calls for the practical in both cases. Vision must be accompanied by virtue for "Without holiness no man can see God.`

Let us then pray for a greater world-wide manifestation and recognition of Apostleship and for its development in power and grace. It is Christ`s own personal gift and appointment.

PS. Rowe writes on The Power sign, the Passion sign and the Vision sign.
Other chapters on Apostleship are - The necessity and significance of Apostleship, The seal of Apostleship, The Service of Apostleship,

He then goes on to write about prophets and prophecy.

It is a large book starting off with The Godhead, then Human nature, The Life and death of Christ, Justification and Sanctification and on through the Holy Spirit and so much more.

If you want me to write on any of those topics just let me know.

 

[forgiven61]

I am old, stressed, in pain and struggeling to get by every day, but not dead.

spiritually dead i dont agree with the charismatic doctrine. especially the baptized for the REMMISSION of sins nor speaking in tongues the evidence of the Holy Ghost . i appreciate there high spirited worship standing up clapping raising hand ..the baptist and others could learn from this...i also disagree with the apostolic oneness teaching .

sometimes there is more focus on the Gift instead of the giver of gifts yes i know this part there are those who feel they are of the authorize doctrine. . its in all the denoms including baptist

 

[YeshuaFan]

Hi YeshuaFan,

Thank you for asking. This is an excerpt from Apostle W.A.C. Rowe`s book `One Lord, One Faith.` written in the1950`s. He was my first Pastor.

The Apostolic sign gifts.

The Virtue Sign.

`Truely the signs of an Apostle were accomplished among you in all patience, (perseverance) in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12)

Fancy putting patience before wonders. We had never thought of patience as a sign. The virtue of patience. If the Apostleship needs anything, it needs patience. It is a divine virtue. `The God of all patience.` Without patience we can, as an Apostleship, squander what we have received. we can fail to finish the course.

Then what of the virtue of faithfulness? In Hebrews 3: 1 - 2 Christ Who is spoken of as `the Apostle` was declared to be `faithful to Him who appointed Him.` The true Apostles were men that were faithful to the end. The Apostles, the messengers, the sent ones, finished their circuit in the perfect will of God at the feet of the glorious Christ who sent them. Patience and faithfulness are lovely jewels side by side.

Humility is a virtue of an Apostleship that magnifies the Master; it is another sign. Neither as being `Lords over God`s heritage....` What is more wonderful than the meekness and humility of the Apostle-Christ? That is the spirit! Listen to true Apostleship! "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself?" (2 Cor. 11: 7) How it humbles us when we think of the exalted ministry of this servant of God. What of this? "You have reigned as kings.....God has set forth us the Apostles last...." (1 Cor. 4: 8 - 9)

All these and many other such virtue signs have their base in holiness, the great virtue sign, "Holy Apostles and Prophets...." (Eph. 3: 5)

Power needs passion to balance and control it. So does vision demand virtue. The supernatural calls for the practical in both cases. Vision must be accompanied by virtue for "Without holiness no man can see God.`

Let us then pray for a greater world-wide manifestation and recognition of Apostleship and for its development in power and grace. It is Christ`s own personal gift and appointment.

PS. Rowe writes on The Power sign, the Passion sign and the Vision sign.
Other chapters on Apostleship are - The necessity and significance of Apostleship, The seal of Apostleship, The Service of Apostleship,

He then goes on to write about prophets and prophecy.

It is a large book starting off with The Godhead, then Human nature, The Life and death of Christ, Justification and Sanctification and on through the Holy Spirit and so much more.

If you want me to write on any of those topics just let me know.

So you would then affirm modern day Apostles and Prophets being sent out into the Church?

 

[YeshuaFan]

spiritually dead i dont agree with the charismatic doctrine. especially the baptized for the REMMISSION of sins nor speaking in tongues the evidence of the Holy Ghost . i appreciate there high spirited worship standing up clapping raising hand ..the baptist and others could learn from this...i also disagree with the apostolic oneness teaching .

sometimes there is more focus on the Gift instead of the giver of gifts yes i know this part there are those who feel they are of the authorize doctrine. . its in all the denoms including baptist

Oneness is outright heresy, and many of the doctrines of Word of Faith also fall under that header

 

[Marilyn C]

So you would then affirm modern day Apostles and Prophets being sent out into the Church?

I have already answered your two questions. So, can you answer my two questions please?

1.Can you recognize an Apostle?

Peter was a fisherman and denied Christ. Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a murderer and Timothy a young man.

2. Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?

 

[forgiven61]

2. Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?

can you ? i would be interested to see it.. no argument just for me to see i have seen a few self appointed apostles

 

[forgiven61]

Oneness is outright heresy, and many of the doctrines of Word of Faith also fall under that header

no disagreement from me

 

[bobinfaith]

I have already answered your two questions. So, can you answer my two questions please?
1.Can you recognize an Apostle?
Peter was a fisherman and denied Christ. Matthew was a tax collector. Paul was a murderer and Timothy a young man.
2. Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?

Hello Marilyn;

Did you and your husband enjoy your vacation away? How was it?

I have a question. When you mentioned your former Pastor, Apostle W.A.C. Rowe, and his book, `One Lord, One Faith.` written in the 1950`s;

Was he given the ordained title Apostle in the Church he served, or was it his testimony that He witnessed and was appointed Apostle by the Living Christ?

God bless you, Marilyn.

Bob

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello Marilyn;

Did you and your husband enjoy your vacation away? How was it?



God bless you, Marilyn.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thank you for asking. We had a great time in the Lord with many God encounters on the way, (over 3,000 kms one way) Some round the camp fire, at a wayside stop, down the street and even in the Pub waiting for our meal. Most people had gone out back to bet on the chickens running. (no kidding) We sat waiting for our dinner talking to the musician who would play later. He said I could play his keyboard so over I went and began to create the music I worship the Lord with.

After a while an older bush man called out and wanted to know about the music. I went over to him and started to talk with him about the Lord. He lived in the bush by himself and I told him that God cared for him. We had a very good talk and I keep praying for him.

A lot of the outback is now being developed for cotton, canola, wheat, vines and fruit trees. There are many stations (farms) that have cattle, goats, and sheep. We saw kangaroos, emus, wild pigs and foxes. It surely is a wide brown land. (By Dorothy McKellar)

`I love a sunburnt country, a land of sweeping plains,
Of rugged mountains ranges, of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons, I love her jeweled sea,
Her beauty and her ashes, the wide brown land for me.`

We stayed at the hot springs (natural) for a few days and then went to the tablelands. There we enjoyed the variety of ice creams (lots of cows there) and went to many bakeries for coffee and muffins. Lots of hills and waterfalls till finally heading over to the coast to stay with one of my husband`s brother and his wife. They went fishing and caught a shark, but sent it back, and then caught lots of Mackerel. Very tasty fish.

We went to their fellowship and met lots of friendly folk - Kenya family, newly saved hippies, and the ministers who don`t take payment. He is a bio-scientist and travel the world in his job.

Good to be home now and catch up with those around here and brothers and sisters up and down the Valley.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello Marilyn;

I have a question. When you mentioned your former Pastor, Apostle W.A.C. Rowe, and his book, `One Lord, One Faith.` written in the 1950`s;

Was he given the ordained title Apostle in the Church he served, or was it his testimony that He witnessed and was appointed Apostle by the Living Christ?

God bless you, Marilyn.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Good question. Now I do understand those in America thinking that there are only false Apostles & Prophets because that is what you mainly have over there. The NAR and even main line Assemblies of God have strayed too far from the respect and honoring God`s word when speaking from the pulpit. What I have seen is too much trying to please the people with jokes, lots of stories and a thin topic.

Now my grandparents and Ps. Rowe and others came out from Scotland and England in the 1930`s to help spread the message of the gospel and the 5-fold ministries. When I was young I remember people going into the main sanctuary and being very quiet. My mother and others would kneel in front of their seat and pray, then sit waiting for the meeting to begin. There was always lots of hymn singing, (we were called the `Singing Church) and then a time of waiting on the Lord quietly. If a Prophet prophesied it was always about the Lord, (not future, or personal)

At the Easter Convention (over a few days) where people would gather from all over Australia and beyond, there was always a mighty move of God with salvations, baptisms, healing, deliverances, and often the ministers on the platform would get caught up in the glory and literally dance across the front. Then there were the times when the very presence of the Lord fell upon the people and you couldn`t say a word just kneel in the heavy atmosphere.

The preaching was from God`s word and treated reverently, with everyone reading from their Bibles too. The teaching was always about the Lord, His sovereignty, His Lordship, His great Mediatorial work etc.

When the counsel over many assemblies (of Elders, Apostles are elders) met at times then the word of the Lord would come through the Prophets and confirmed by the Apostles. At times the Lord would appoint a person as an Apostle etc. The appointment would be recognized by the congregation over time. Of course, the person concerned would need a call from the Lord as well as confirmed by his peers.

You can read of the details in Ps. (Apostle) Rowe`s book. The movement by that time (`50`s) had many years of experience in Apostleship. After the Welsh revival the Lord revealed to different men in different places in England and brought them together with the same understanding of the 5-fold ministries.

Church government is by Apostles and Prophets and Elders it is not a democracy as is the AOG.

Hope that helps somewhat, Bob.

It was good for me to remember the early days, Marilyn.

 

[Major]

I have already answered your two questions. So, can you answer my two questions please?

1.Can you recognize an Apostle?

Peter was a fisherman and denied Christ. Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a murderer and Timothy a young man.

Can I show scripturally why there are NO Apostles today?

Why YES I can.

1 Corinthians 9:1......
"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"

Not only were the original twelve apostles to be eyewitnesses of Jesus’ resurrection, all who had the gift of the apostle had to have seen the risen Christ. Only the first generation of Christians would meet this requirement. Obviously no one today could qualify for the gift of apostle if an apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrection of Jesus.

1 Corth. 15:5-7............
"He was seen by Peter and then by the twelve apostles. After that, he was seen by more than five hundred of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died by now. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles".

In Acts 1:21 God says the only way one can be qualified to be an Apostle of God is that it must be......
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us”.

That fact alone disqualifies any of us who are living today. We’re 2,000 years too late to be an Apostle!

The people and denominations that WANT to have Apostles and Prophets will cite Ephesians 4:11-13.........
“gave [past tense] the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

Please notice that there are qualifications for pastors, deacons, and elders (Titus 1 & 1 Tim 3) but there is not one qualification after Acts for an Apostle or prophet. Why? It’s because their time has come and gone. We have the whole Word of God today, therefore no more revelation is needed.

As for "Prophets". The word Prophet gives the idea for FORETELLING future events.

The Author of Hebrews wrote in 1:1-2.......
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke [past tense] to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken [past tense] to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world”.

The Greek tense here grammatically shows it is not repeatable and it is all in the past. He has spoken.

Jude says in 3-4.........
"the faith was “once for all delivered.”

That’s also is past tense as well. That means no more deliveries will be made.

WHY??????

That’s because we have the whole Word of God today.

In fact, Jude 3-4 he wrote that he was ......
“very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ”.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I have already answered your two questions. So, can you answer my two questions please?

1.Can you recognize an Apostle?

Peter was a fisherman and denied Christ. Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a murderer and Timothy a young man.

2. Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?

per the Bible, an Apostle of jesus had to either part of the original 12, or else saw the risen Christ as both james and Paul did, or else be a "partner" with fellow apostle, like mark and peter, Luke and Paul, so none can qualify today

 

[YeshuaFan]

I have already answered your two questions. So, can you answer my two questions please?

1.Can you recognize an Apostle?

Peter was a fisherman and denied Christ. Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a murderer and Timothy a young man.

2. Can you scripturally show me that there are no Apostles today?

Hi Bob,

Good question. Now I do understand those in America thinking that there are only false Apostles & Prophets because that is what you mainly have over there. The NAR and even main line Assemblies of God have strayed too far from the respect and honoring God`s word when speaking from the pulpit. What I have seen is too much trying to please the people with jokes, lots of stories and a thin topic.

Now my grandparents and Ps. Rowe and others came out from Scotland and England in the 1930`s to help spread the message of the gospel and the 5-fold ministries. When I was young I remember people going into the main sanctuary and being very quiet. My mother and others would kneel in front of their seat and pray, then sit waiting for the meeting to begin. There was always lots of hymn singing, (we were called the `Singing Church) and then a time of waiting on the Lord quietly. If a Prophet prophesied it was always about the Lord, (not future, or personal)

At the Easter Convention (over a few days) where people would gather from all over Australia and beyond, there was always a mighty move of God with salvations, baptisms, healing, deliverances, and often the ministers on the platform would get caught up in the glory and literally dance across the front. Then there were the times when the very presence of the Lord fell upon the people and you couldn`t say a word just kneel in the heavy atmosphere.

The preaching was from God`s word and treated reverently, with everyone reading from their Bibles too. The teaching was always about the Lord, His sovereignty, His Lordship, His great Mediatorial work etc.

When the counsel over many assemblies (of Elders, Apostles are elders) met at times then the word of the Lord would come through the Prophets and confirmed by the Apostles. At times the Lord would appoint a person as an Apostle etc. The appointment would be recognized by the congregation over time. Of course, the person concerned would need a call from the Lord as well as confirmed by his peers.

You can read of the details in Ps. (Apostle) Rowe`s book. The movement by that time (`50`s) had many years of experience in Apostleship. After the Welsh revival the Lord revealed to different men in different places in England and brought them together with the same understanding of the 5-fold ministries.

Church government is by Apostles and Prophets and Elders it is not a democracy as is the AOG.

Hope that helps somewhat, Bob.

It was good for me to remember the early days, Marilyn.

Only Lord Jesus can appoint Apostles and prophets, and none can meet the required qualifications as listed in the Bible

 

[YeshuaFan]

Can I show scripturally why there are NO Apostles today?

Why YES I can.

1 Corinthians 9:1......
"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"

Not only were the original twelve apostles to be eyewitnesses of Jesus’ resurrection, all who had the gift of the apostle had to have seen the risen Christ. Only the first generation of Christians would meet this requirement. Obviously no one today could qualify for the gift of apostle if an apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrection of Jesus.

1 Corth. 15:5-7............
"He was seen by Peter and then by the twelve apostles. After that, he was seen by more than five hundred of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died by now. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles".

In Acts 1:21 God says the only way one can be qualified to be an Apostle of God is that it must be......
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us”.

That fact alone disqualifies any of us who are living today. We’re 2,000 years too late to be an Apostle!

The people and denominations that WANT to have Apostles and Prophets will cite Ephesians 4:11-13.........
“gave [past tense] the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

Please notice that there are qualifications for pastors, deacons, and elders (Titus 1 & 1 Tim 3) but there is not one qualification after Acts for an Apostle or prophet. Why? It’s because their time has come and gone. We have the whole Word of God today, therefore no more revelation is needed.

As for "Prophets". The word Prophet gives the idea for FORETELLING future events.

The Author of Hebrews wrote in 1:1-2.......
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke [past tense] to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken [past tense] to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world”.

The Greek tense here grammatically shows it is not repeatable and it is all in the past. He has spoken.

Jude says in 3-4.........
"the faith was “once for all delivered.”

That’s also is past tense as well. That means no more deliveries will be made.

WHY??????

That’s because we have the whole Word of God today.

In fact, Jude 3-4 he wrote that he was ......
“very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ”.

The author of Hebrews Himself stated for us that while the Apostles did their signs and wonders to confirm the person and ministry of Jesus, that was a past time not ongoing
Hebrews 2:1-4

 

[Major]

The author of Hebrews Himself stated for us that while the Apostles did their signs and wonders to confirm the person and ministry of Jesus, that was a past time not ongoing
Hebrews 2:1-4

Yes sir. That is exactly what I am saying the Bible says. So we have TWO choices.
1. Believe the Bible
2. Ignore the Bible and accept what we want to believe.

 

[Major]

per the Bible, an Apostle of jesus had to either part of the original 12, or else saw the risen Christ as both james and Paul did, or else be a "partner" with fellow apostle, like mark and peter, Luke and Paul, so none can qualify today

Exactly!

Now the real question is......why do YOU and Bob see that and others do not see it. OR......Do they see it and simply say.......
"I like what I know even if what I know is not in the Bible"

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes sir. That is exactly what I am saying the Bible says. So we have TWO choices.
1. Believe the Bible
2. Ignore the Bible and accept what we want to believe.

When one states that there are modern day Apostles and Prophets, really holding to ongoing revelation and inspiration, so whatever they state in regards to Theology and doctrines and practices would have to be seen by them as being "thus sayith the Lord"