A Sign Of The Times?

[RiverJordan]

I wonder what the above means if it doesn't mean what it says?

It means what it says. Children are to obey their parents. But in ancient Jewish culture, teenagers weren't thought of as "children". That's why Bar Mitzvahs are held at age 12 for girls, and 13 for boys. It signifies the time in their lives when they become accountable for their actions.

2Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
I suspect that time is now upon us.

I suspect older generations have been saying that for centuries, or even millinia. Every time something changes, it's "Well, that's the false teaching/unsound doctrine scripture speaks of".

 

[Kayte]

Marriage equality is an extremely sensitive topic. There is little I can say about my own personal beliefs that will not offend anybody. All I will say is God's love applies to anyone who is willing to accept Him as their saviour and repent for their sins.

 

[calvin]

It means what it says. Children are to obey their parents. But in ancient Jewish culture, teenagers weren't thought of as "children". That's why Bar Mitzvahs are held at age 12 for girls, and 13 for boys. It signifies the time in their lives when they become accountable for their actions.

That was their culture and we should not look back and condemn them in any way even though we do things differently these days.
I seem to recollect reading that though they conferred 'adult' status at an early age, a man was not considered mature enough to give counsel or be involved in decision making till age 30, where he could be considered an elder. Perhaps that is why Jesus waited till He was 30 before He began His three year ministry. Given that He was the Son of God, He was even at the age of 12-13 the Son of God.
Here is a sort of cameo of Jewish life of those days........
Luk 2:40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.
Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom.
Luk 2:43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it,
Luk 2:44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
Luk 2:45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him.
Luk 2:46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
Luk 2:48 And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress."
Luk 2:49 And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
Luk 2:50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
But at that age, He was considered way too young to have a voice.
Even though He was the Son of God, and could go toe to toe with the rabbis and elders/scribes etc. yet still, He was submissive to the older Gen. specifically Joseph and Mary, His 'parents'.

 

[calvin]

Marriage equality is an extremely sensitive topic. There is little I can say about my own personal beliefs that will not offend anybody. All I will say is God's love applies to anyone who is willing to accept Him as their saviour and repent for their sins.

Can't argue much against that!
Repenting involves a turning around though. So if a person's life style is contrary to the expressed will of God, repenting will involve turning away from that life style to one that conforms to God's purpose.
Have blessed day....as they say, Jesus is the reason for the season.
Welcome to our forum BTW, just read your biography

 

[calvin]

Marriage equality is an extremely sensitive topic. There is little I can say about my own personal beliefs that will not offend anybody. All I will say is God's love applies to anyone who is willing to accept Him as their saviour and repent for their sins.

As long as you do not offend Jesus by your beliefs, you'll be on the right track

 

[Major]

That was their culture and we should not look back and condemn them in any way even though we do things differently these days.
I seem to recollect reading that though they conferred 'adult' status at an early age, a man was not considered mature enough to give counsel or be involved in decision making till age 30, where he could be considered an elder. Perhaps that is why Jesus waited till He was 30 before He began His three year ministry. Given that He was the Son of God, He was even at the age of 12-13 the Son of God.
Here is a sort of cameo of Jewish life of those days........
Luk 2:40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.
Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom.
Luk 2:43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it,
Luk 2:44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
Luk 2:45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him.
Luk 2:46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
Luk 2:48 And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress."
Luk 2:49 And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
Luk 2:50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
But at that age, He was considered way too young to have a voice.
Even though He was the Son of God, and could go toe to toe with the rabbis and elders/scribes etc. yet still, He was submissive to the older Gen. specifically Joseph and Mary, His 'parents'.

Happy Jesus Birthday calvin!!!

You said......."Given that He was the Son of God, He was even at the age of 12-13 the Son of God."

Here is another one to consider, While in diapers in the manger He was the Son of God and in control of the entire universe!!

 

[MichaelH]

Marriage equality is an extremely sensitive topic. There is little I can say about my own personal beliefs that will not offend anybody. All I will say is God's love applies to anyone who is willing to accept Him as their saviour and repent for their sins.

If your 100% on Scripture, then who here would get offended. If your making your own stuff up according to the World then we still won't be offended, but we will be concerned for you.

Blessings.

 

[calvin]

Happy Jesus Birthday calvin!!!

You said......."Given that He was the Son of God, He was even at the age of 12-13 the Son of God."

Here is another one to consider, While in diapers in the manger He was the Son of God and in control of the entire universe!!

Top of the season to you and yours Major!
Yeah it is hard to get your head around the fact that the baby Jesus was the Word from the beginning.
Another interesting thing is that Lizzie's 6 month old unborn leaped for joy at Mary's news. Now OK, that may well have been a one off event, but how can people talk in favour of abortion as though the unborn is just some sort of malignant tumor to be gotten rid of??
Again......a sign of the times.

 

[RiverJordan]

Calvin,

In response to the story in the OP about high schoolers protesting the firing of someone at their school, you cited scripture about children obeying their parents. But that scripture was written during a time when people of that age weren't considered "children", so it's not relevant to this issue.

Regarding them "giving counsel", that's not what they're doing. They're simply expressing their opinions.

I wonder if your reaction to this is based on a true dislike for teenagers expressing themselves no matter what the subject (like if the kids took a stance that you agreed with, would you suddenly support them), or if it's more about these kids expressing a viewpoint that you don't agree with?

If these kids did a similar walkout on something like "Take a Stand for Jesus", I get the feeling you'd be like, "Good for them!" But if they do the same on an issue you don't like (gay rights), suddenly you're like "Children today are so disrespectful and need to shut up!"

I also wonder, given your authoritarian attitude in this thread, what do you think we should do with these kids? Turn the hose on 'em? Release the dogs? Tear gas?

 

[calvin]

Calvin,

In response to the story in the OP about high schoolers protesting the firing of someone at their school, you cited scripture about children obeying their parents. But that scripture was written during a time when people of that age weren't considered "children", so it's not relevant to this issue.

Sad...
There are those who think the Bible, God's instruction is dated. Follow through then, Christ died for those peasants two thousand years ago because they couldn't save themselves, but we, being more highly evolved ......... The Bible condemned sin...bat that was only then, surely that doesn't apply now to us in this enlightened age

Regarding them "giving counsel", that's not what they're doing. They're simply expressing their opinions.

What is an opinion if not counsel? You are expressing your opinion here.... are you not offering me counsel on how I should think?
Since when is civil disobedience just expressing an opinion without making a statement about how things should be in those people's perfect world?
You can 'white wash' their actions all you like.....it won't change a thing. Were they sent to school to behave as they did or were they sent to school to learn?

I wonder if your reaction to this is based on a true dislike for teenagers expressing themselves no matter what the subject (like if the kids took a stance that you agreed with, would you suddenly support them), or if it's more about these kids expressing a viewpoint that you don't agree with?

Neither.
When I went to school we had debating teams. We could argue debate in an orderly fashion without being disrespectful of authority or those who held a different perspective on the 'hot topic' of the moment. But never following the mob like a crowd of lemmings following the one in front.

If these kids did a similar walkout on something like "Take a Stand for Jesus", I get the feeling you'd be like, "Good for them!" But if they do the same on an issue you don't like (gay rights), suddenly you're like "Children today are so disrespectful and need to shut up!"

You are indeed on shaky ground. Unruly disrespectful behavior does not honour Jesus, and would be just as harmful to the gospel as any other form of bad behavior. The name of Jesus is not now, never has been and never will be an excuse for bad behavior. taking a stand for Jesus is not a chant thing or a mob demonstration thing, , but a decision to make a personal life style change.. Jesus never advocated mob rule or civil disobedience. Paul in his epistles never advocated civil disobedience nor did the Churches practice or advocate it. On the contrary, mob rule and civil disobedience was used by the enemies of Christianity to try to destroy it. Read through the book of acts sometime.
Now then....If Jesus had walked into that situation, would He have encouraged their behavior or would He have pointed them toward a more respectful path? ie would He have condoned their breaking the eighth commandment, or Paul's amplification of it?

I also wonder, given your authoritarian attitude in this thread, what do you think we should do with these kids? Turn the hose on 'em? Release the dogs? Tear gas?

I notice that throughout your replies, you are really very judgmental....never mind there seems to be a lot of rebellion driven ire there.
No, there is no quick antidote for this sort of thing. Children need to be taught in the way they should behave at a very early age.
Children, having been raised in an environment where certain bad behavior is considered OK, are not likely to change just because they get a hosing down. No, perhaps the best that can happen for them is to let them know that their actions are fruitless and not indicative of the way a well ordered society functions. Knee jerk reactions will never work. Do you think if they were given an opportunity to debate the issue they might come away having achieved something? I ask this because if I were in a position of authority there at that school that is the direction I would want to steer them. Those who take the opposition must work hard to defend a position that they do not personally subscribe to will come to see the alternate point of view etc. Healthy growth through debate is the hose I would want to turn on them.

 

[MichaelH]

I have to side with Calvin on this. Scripture is always right, it has no age limit. Kids in the OT were put to death who brought dishonor. Children who obey their parents are given the promise of long life, being a first promise to them.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

What does obedience to parents have to do with the subject? Aren't we now talking about two very different subjects?

 

[RiverJordan]

Sad...
There are those who think the Bible, God's instruction is dated. Follow through then, Christ died for those peasants two thousand years ago because they couldn't save themselves, but we, being more highly evolved ......... The Bible condemned sin...bat that was only then, surely that doesn't apply now to us in this enlightened age What is an opinion if not counsel? You are expressing your opinion here.... are you not offering me counsel on how I should think?

What are you talking about? I never said anything was "dated". I merely pointed out that scriptures about "children" don't apply in this case since the students in question are not children.

You're taking a scripture about children and trying to apply it to 16 and 18 year olds. See the problem? Just a hint...it's not that scripture is "dated".

Since when is civil disobedience just expressing an opinion without making a statement about how things should be in those people's perfect world?

Wow. So high schoolers are not to express their opinions according to you. Ok then....

I understand your position on this. I just disagree.

 

[RiverJordan]

I have to side with Calvin on this. Scripture is always right, it has no age limit. Kids in the OT were put to death who brought dishonor. Children who obey their parents are given the promise of long life, being a first promise to them.

So these kids should be given the death penalty? And how do you know these kids were disobeying their parents? Maybe in some cases, their parents agree with what they did?

 

[MichaelH]

So these kids should be given the death penalty? And how do you know these kids were disobeying their parents? Maybe in some cases, their parents agree with what they did?

Exo 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

It would not apply to heathen parents who do not know God.

 

[RiverJordan]

Given that this took place at a Catholic school, it's a fair assumption that the parents do know God.

So do you believe the students should be put to death?

 

[Glomung]

We should really temper that Old Testament stuff with a touch of SANITY.
This is not 1600 BC and we are not living in a lawless tribal society.
You can't just go around murdering rebellious children, we'd lose an entire generation.
Then who is going to change your depends when you're a doddering 90 year old?

There are better ways of dealing with today's problems then hacking the head off of every
one who morally offends you.
(though I can think of a few politicians that an old fashioned tar and feathering would help)

 

[calvin]

What are you talking about? I never said anything was "dated". I merely pointed out that scriptures about "children" don't apply in this case since the students in question are not children.

River, when you posted this:::"But that scripture was written during a time when people of that age weren't considered "children", so it's not relevant to this issue." cf post #29, you implied that scripture is dated. You did not use the word "dated" however that is implicit in your words.

You're taking a scripture about children and trying to apply it to 16 and 18 year olds. See the problem? Just a hint...it's not that scripture is "dated".

Children are the offspring of their parents. Some are juvenile, some are not. Being considered a child is not restricted to age. Some ten year olds are more 'adult' (in their behavior) than some 21 year olds, who are supposed to be adult.
However, the issue is not child as distinct from adult, it is child as distinct from parent.....there is a huge difference.

Wow. So high schoolers are not to express their opinions according to you. Ok then....

Why have you set aside my suggestion of orderly debate and claimed that I would forbid "high schoolers" from expressing their views???

I understand your position on this. SNIP

Very evidently you do not understand my position...not while you attempt to twist and dodge as you have been doing.

 

[RiverJordan]

River, when you posted this:::"But that scripture was written during a time when people of that age weren't considered "children", so it's not relevant to this issue." cf post #29, you implied that scripture is dated. You did not use the word "dated" however that is implicit in your words.

Then you misunderstood. As I explained earlier, the point is that you were citing verses about children in a situation that had nothing to do with children.

Children are the offspring of their parents. Some are juvenile, some are not. Being considered a child is not restricted to age. Some ten year olds are more 'adult' (in their behavior) than some 21 year olds, who are supposed to be adult.
However, the issue is not child as distinct from adult, it is child as distinct from parent.....there is a huge difference.

I don't understand your point here.

Why have you set aside my suggestion of orderly debate and claimed that I would forbid "high schoolers" from expressing their views??? Very evidently you do not understand my position...not while you attempt to twist and dodge as you have been doing.

How can these students participate in a debate and express their views, without "giving counsel" as you previously admonished against?

 

[calvin]

Hi River, last tings first.

How can these students participate in a debate and express their views, without "giving counsel" as you previously admonished against?

Within a school environment, structured and orderly debate is a learning exercise for all those involved. The students who form the 'government' and those who form the 'opposition', must both work hard to 'sell' their position. Perhaps rather than Government and opposition, the terms 'for' and 'against' might be used. The rest of the students not actively debating can listen in and be informed of the various pros and cons. When I went to school, we were given an opportunity to discuss our thoughts with the debating team members so that we individually had a voice as well. This is vastly different from staging 'sit ins' and 'mass walkouts'
From reading several article it seems that the news of this dismissal broke when Mr z told his swim team members, or maybe just one of them about his dismissal. There are conflicting bits of information as to what is what, but that is the norm I suppose. One report has it that he was not in breach of contract, another that he is.
I'm not 100% sure of what the divisions are over there between middle school and High School (age wise) though I gather that middle school would be for students ranging from about 7 0r 8 up to maybe 13 to 14 or so, where high school would begin?
That School caters for both groups and it seems that the student actions disrupted classes and possibly forced the closure of the school on one particular day. That impacted on the most junior students there, involving them in issues that they would not reasonably understand. That, and mass organized action is in and of itself giving counsel. "We (the mob rule set) are taking the following action. All must follow and show support for this cause. This is the right action to follow in the face of the injustices leveled at Mr. Z.....you do agree don't you? You don't want to labeled as homophobic do you?....come and join in...strength in numbers will rule".
So yes, student protest is more than just expressing an opinion.

Before that you said

I don't understand your point here.

OK, what age were the 'Children of Israel' and who were they? They weren't just the twelve sons of Jacob, they were the people, the nation young and old alike who sprang forth from Jacob. So even a person of say, 40 years of age was a member of the children of Israel, and bound to honor those who came before them. In our western society we generally confer adult status at either 18 or 21 years, but that does not end our obligation to those who preceded us as parents. Not only our biological parents, but those of the older generation from which we have come.

You opened with

Then you misunderstood. As I explained earlier, the point is that you were citing verses about children in a situation that had nothing to do with children.

Yes, we seem to have misunderstood each other
We have had a friendly enough discussion without staging a 'sit in' or occupying the Chancellors office.
That is good no?