Abraham

While I agree with you that Jesus is Lord, and that he speaks, but when does he speak? Jesus him self said that his words were not his but his Fathers, and that he only spoke when he heard the Father speak. In the same way the Holy when he speaks only speaks what he has heard. There can no words spoken unless all three persons of the God head are speaking. Everything originates with the Father, then flows to the Son, and then the Holy Spirit.

As I see it in the scriptures, as a man, "Jesus" He spoke only as the Father spoke, but as God (there being only one) He spoke the worlds into being. But you may be correct so let us not derail the thread...I believe the Word/Son was God before He became incarnate as Jesus, before the incarnation He was not "Jesus". Of the Son it is said He is higher than the angels but of Jesus it is written He was made a little lower than the angels, so because of the scriptural distinction of His former and latter being (first only fully God, then after though still fully God, also fully man)...but I realize there is some in-house debate as to the details of these things...the Lord bless
 
While I agree with you that Jesus is Lord, and that he speaks, but when does he speak? Jesus him self said that his words were not his but his Fathers, and that he only spoke when he heard the Father speak. In the same way the Holy when he speaks only speaks what he has heard. There can no words spoken unless all three persons of the God head are speaking. Everything originates with the Father, then flows to the Son, and then the Holy Spirit.
So when the Father spoke from heaven.."this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased" was the Father speaking apart from Christ in regards to Christ or through Christ?
 
So when the Father spoke from heaven.."this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased" was the Father speaking apart from Christ in regards to Christ or through Christ?

Through Christ...Remember Jesus said..

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus tells us that not only was he on earth doing the will of his Father, but at the same time he was still with his Father in Heaven.
 
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As I see it in the scriptures, as a man, "Jesus" He spoke only as the Father spoke, but as God (there being only one) He spoke the worlds into being. But you may be correct so let us not derail the thread...I believe the Word/Son was God before He became incarnate as Jesus, before the incarnation He was not "Jesus". Of the Son it is said He is higher than the angels but of Jesus it is written He was made a little lower than the angels, so because of the scriptural distinction of His former and latter being (first only fully God, then after though still fully God, also fully man)...but I realize there is some in-house debate as to the details of these things...the Lord bless

Even though Jesus was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death, and even Adam was made lower than the angels, but as soon as God crowned him with Glory and Honor that now placed him above the angels. Maybe being made lower in power and might, but not in authority which had the complete power of God behind him.

Heb 2:6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
 
Genesis 14 opens with much unrest between kings in the area. Abram's nephew, Lot, is captured along with the wealth of Sodom. A man who escaped the attack told Abram about what had happened.
Abram assembled 318 trained men born in his household. This gives us an idea of the amount of wealth and number of servants and family members under his leadership. The total number of people must have numbered well over one thousand.
Abram took the 318 men and pursued the kings who had pillaged Sodom. They defeated the kings using the cover of darkness and rescued Lot and the rest of the people with their possessions.
Melchizedek, priest of God, and known as king of Salem, which may have been a former name of Jerusalem, met Abram when he got back and blessed Abram. Abram then gave one tenth of the possessions to Melchizedek, first time in scripture to mention the percentage given back to God, also known as the first tithe.
The king of Sodom wanted to reward Abram by offering all the possessions for Abram to keep. Abram declined, not wanting to be thought of as being made rich by the king of Sodom. Apparently, Abram wanted to be known as a "self made man" or at least a man made wealthy by God's blessings. He did let the men, who went with him, have their fair share of the spoils for their work. This ends chapter 14.
 
In Genesis 15, God promises Abram a son to be his heir, and the future generation's offspring to number as the stars in the sky. Abram believes God's promise, and this belief counts as righteousness.
Then God promises all the land around Abram to be his to possess. Abram does not believe this, so God has him prepare a sacrifice and then Abram falls into a deep sleep during sunset, during which God tells him of the prophecy of his future generations being enslaved in Egypt. After which they would return with wealth and take back ownership of this land. When he wakes God makes the covenant with Abram, in which God gives the boundaries of the land which God is giving Abram's future generations.
 
Interesting verse in chapter 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
This reads as the Amorites' sins have not yet reached a level of deserving to lose their land. God knew in the time it would take for Abram to have a son, grandson and great grandsons who would go to Egypt and eventually, years later, be enslaved for four generations, that the Amorites would then be overwhelmingly sinful. This shows God's mercy to allow time for the Amorites to turn from their evil ways. Yet God knew the sinfulness was going to get worse.
 
Through Christ...Remember Jesus said..

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus tells us that not only was he on earth doing the will of his Father, but at the same time he was still with his Father in Heaven.
Hold on a min... are you saying that these scriptures are not true or should not be believed as they are written?

Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mr 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Lu 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Please explain!
 
Hold on a min... are you saying that these scriptures are not true or should not be believed as they are written?

Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mr 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Lu 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Please explain!

You can not have God speak without the other two persons of the God head also speak since they are one. Everything originates with the Father and that is where the Word comes from. It flows from the mouth of the Father. As Jesus always said about him self that he only spoke what he heard his Father say, same with the Holy Spirit which only speaks what he has heard. Also, remember the only person who can reveal the Son is the Father. The only person who can reveal the Father is the Son, and Holy Spirit gives life and leads us into all the truth. What was the Fathers location when Jesus lived on earth? He was in Jesus reconciling the world unto him self as he said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased;" Jesus lives by his own Words....

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jesus could have just told everyone who he was and he would have the legal right to do so, since he is the truth, but he allows his Father to do that because of this.

Pro 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.

Who told Peter who Jesus was? It was the Father as Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed that unto you , but my Father in Heaven" God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all speak and agree on everything.

Since the Father was sitting on his throne in Heaven while Jesus was on earth, yet at the same time he was in Jesus reconciling the world unto him self. While Jesus was on earth doing the will of his Father, yet at the same time he was still with his Father in Heaven as he said about him self.
 
If God the Father was going to transmit information from him self to another what vehicle would he use to convey this information? He would use His Word (which is Jesus the Word of God) If Jesus is not speaking, then God the Father is not saying anything. It makes no difference if Jesus is speaking from earth or from Heaven, if words are being conveyed then Jesus is the one speaking.
 
Even though Jesus was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death, and even Adam was made lower than the angels, but as soon as God crowned him with Glory and Honor that now placed him above the angels. Maybe being made lower in power and might, but not in authority which had the complete power of God behind him.

Heb 2:6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Amen! He Who was Majesty itself took upon Himself the likeness of flesh many times but this time became a man (Phil. 2:8)...God humbled Himself for our sakes, to set us free from the fear of death and death itself (Hebrews 2:14). He who IS the Glory of the Father (John 1:1), condescended (never giving up His Deity), and became the first fruits of glorified man. And now He is in us, the eager expectation of our own resurrection glory.
 
You can not have God speak without the other two persons of the God head also speak since they are one. Everything originates with the Father and that is where the Word comes from. It flows from the mouth of the Father. As Jesus always said about him self that he only spoke what he heard his Father say, same with the Holy Spirit which only speaks what he has heard. Also, remember the only person who can reveal the Son is the Father. The only person who can reveal the Father is the Son, and Holy Spirit gives life and leads us into all the truth. What was the Fathers location when Jesus lived on earth? He was in Jesus reconciling the world unto him self as he said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased;" Jesus lives by his own Words....

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jesus could have just told everyone who he was and he would have the legal right to do so, since he is the truth, but he allows his Father to do that because of this.

Pro 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.

Who told Peter who Jesus was? It was the Father as Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed that unto you , but my Father in Heaven" God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all speak and agree on everything.

Since the Father was sitting on his throne in Heaven while Jesus was on earth, yet at the same time he was in Jesus reconciling the world unto him self. While Jesus was on earth doing the will of his Father, yet at the same time he was still with his Father in Heaven as he said about him self.
No it appears you are trying to act like you understand the Godhead, when you clearly do not! The scriptures are clear, that the Father spoke, Not Jesus as the Son...so you are just speaking in circles and clearly do not understand the issue you are trying to affirm.
 
So when the Father spoke from heaven.."this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased" was the Father speaking apart from Christ in regards to Christ or through Christ?

You are free to express your own opinion. If you want to believe that God the Father operates independently of the Godhead thats your choice. It changes not what I believe.
 
If God the Father was going to transmit information from him self to another what vehicle would he use to convey this information? He would use His Word (which is Jesus the Word of God) If Jesus is not speaking, then God the Father is not saying anything. It makes no difference if Jesus is speaking from earth or from Heaven, if words are being conveyed then Jesus is the one speaking.
May be it's just too much for me and it just goes over my head!! I am not a theologian.. I forgot which Psalm it is.. David says "The Lord said to my lord".. Clearly, it was a prophesy on the promise of Father to Son.. How should I read that communication?
 
You are free to express your own opinion. If you want to believe that God the Father operates independently of the Godhead thats your choice. It changes not what I believe.
I believe the clear reading of the scriptures, what I know is that religious folks love to pretend that they understand the "Godhead" and the "trinity" and go on and on with stuff to sound like they are spiritual... Folks makeup these complex doctrines as if they understand the deep things of Gods Person and then they leave the simple truth of the scriptures in order to defend a doctrine they have dreamed up in their pride. God the Father spoke in regards to the God the Son, now that is clear...any doctrine that denies that simple truth? Is a false doctrine!
 
I believe the clear reading of the scriptures, what I know is that religious folks love to pretend that they understand the "Godhead" and the "trinity" and go on and on with stuff to sound like they are spiritual... Folks makeup these complex doctrines as if they understand the deep things of Gods Person and then they leave the simple truth of the scriptures in order to defend a doctrine they have dreamed up in their pride. God the Father spoke in regards to the God the Son, now that is clear...any doctrine that denies that simple truth? Is a false doctrine!

Mitspa, this is not complex! This is easy to understand, it is not rocket science. God the Father NEVER operates independently of the Godhead. How can he when they are all one in their speech, and in agreement. Weather it is the Father speaking, Word, or Holy Spirit, they are all speaking at the same time because they are one. What part do you not understand when it comes to God the Father speaking? Do not words proceed out of his mouth when he speaks? Do you know who that Word is? Does the Father have is own personal words that we do not know of?
 
Mitspa, this is not complex! This is easy to understand, it is not rocket science. God the Father NEVER operates independently of the Godhead. How can he when they are all one in their speech, and in agreement. Weather it is the Father speaking, Word, or Holy Spirit, they are all speaking at the same time because they are one. What part do you not understand when it comes to God the Father speaking? Do not words proceed out of his mouth when he speaks? Do you know who that Word is?
Yea its very simple ...Did the Father speak in regards to the Son? So the Father spoke...Not the son...that does not mean that Jesus is not the Word, nor that they are separate in some way...that means you don't understand these things as you are trying to make others think you do...So your doctrine is complex and WRONG! very simple...:)
 
Sorry for jumping in, but the clearest example that Jesus was also God is in the first chapter of John.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
 
Sorry for jumping in, but the clearest example that Jesus was also God is in the first chapter of John.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
Its not a debate about Jesus being the Word and God...He clearly is...but that does not and cannot change the clear reading of the scriptures... The Father Spoke in regards to the Son...That's the point!
 
Its not a debate about Jesus being the Word and God...He clearly is...but that does not and cannot change the clear reading of the scriptures... The Father Spoke in regards to the Son...That's the point!
Sorry, like I said, I jumped in. I don't even know what you guys are debating.
 
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