Alcohol, Alcoholism, and Temperance.

People who can't handle their liquor should not drink. It's that simple. Just as people who can't swim shouldn't play in the ocean.
The difficulty that most folks have, IMNSHO, is that they have great difficulty being honest with themselves about their limitations and their bad behavior.
I've known a lot of drunks over the years, and practically every one of them was oblivious to their inability to handle booze in a sane manner.
 
Seems silly that ppl argue oh grape juice that keeps is a recent invention.
Lanolin, nobody is being silly at all, just trying to discuss the subject freely and honestly.
Don't take my word, but maybe you should read around the internet about the history of wine production and you will see how far out your understanding is.
There is absolutely no doubt that in ancient times fermentation could not be stopped and that it was the historic and normal method used all around the world for preservation of the fruit of the vine.
 
Besides it is not what I think that means anything but what God thinks. If you enjoying your drink and then get angry cos somebody else doesnt enjoy what you enjoy..thats no good. Cos ppl have their reasons for not poisoning themselves.
That is why we have laws about drinking cos its so harmful for children. Not everyones body can handle it, and there are MANY cases of ppl dying from it, so...dont understand why you so defensive. I know at least two personally who have died from it and they did not drink everyday. Also it was cos of other ppl around them. I also know someone who drank, lost control of his car and killed someone. You may think you immune but you really not aware of how your behaviour affects other ppl under the influence. Would you offer children alcohol? No.

And its not like so,ething special that everyone is supposed to have. So you cant force ppl to drink it. Thats just rude.
You really are passive aggressive...
 
Gluttony is bad.
Um, dont know what to say as ppl getting argumentative now.
Can we just go back to scripture?

One of the fruits of the holy spirit is temperance.
Lanolin, I know it seems that we are all ganging up on you, and that it must be hard being the only one on your side. But here you ask that we just go back to scripture, when you have not supplied any scripture that directly backs your view.

Sometimes though, we can only understand scripture when we also look at history for the context. That applies whatever side we take.
 
Everyone -- remember that this forum is being monitored. If any remarks are responded to agitate and are in violation of forum rules, action will be taken.
 
Actually, gluttony is a sin as it is practiced, which is a continual lack of self-discipline with regard to food. Harm to the body is its consequence.

That's an interesting perspective. You're right that it is a sin when practiced, but from the explanation I keep finding as to why it is a sin, it's because it's a lack of control and an unhealthy obsession. Though I don't think you're wrong either -- harm to the body the physical result.
 
That's an interesting perspective. You're right that it is a sin when practiced, but from the explanation I keep finding as to why it is a sin, it's because it's a lack of control and an unhealthy obsession. Though I don't think you're wrong either -- harm to the body the physical result.

You are correct, yet the sin goes much deeper than that. Food becomes an idol to the glutton...there's the sin of it. Another thing---one doesn't have to be the obese person to be a glutton. Thin people can revere the god of food as well. The harm is not only to the physical body but the most severe harm is to the soul and spirit of one who places anything in greater importance than God in one's life.
 
Besides it is not what I think that means anything but what God thinks. If you enjoying your drink and then get angry cos somebody else doesnt enjoy what you enjoy..thats no good. Cos ppl have their reasons for not poisoning themselves.
That is why we have laws about drinking cos its so harmful for children. Not everyones body can handle it, and there are MANY cases of ppl dying from it, so...dont understand why you so defensive. I know at least two personally who have died from it and they did not drink everyday. Also it was cos of other ppl around them. I also know someone who drank, lost control of his car and killed someone. You may think you immune but you really not aware of how your behaviour affects other ppl under the influence. Would you offer children alcohol? No.

And its not like so,ething special that everyone is supposed to have. So you cant force ppl to drink it. Thats just rude.

I don't think anyone feels that way. No one minds if people do or don't drink. Again, I don't drink alcohol and no one minds either way. The divide is just a matter of whether or not drinking alcohol itself (putting aside drunkenness and excess) is bad or not.

The case people are making is this:
-Drinking alcohol (with responsibility) isn't wrong.
-Not drinking alcohol, whether it is because of one's tolerance to it or because they simply don't like the flavor, isn't wrong.
-Drinking in excess is wrong.
-Obsessing over alcohol (even if drunkenness doesn't follow) is wrong.

A friend of mine who's a doctor and a Christian made an interesting point once that if a glass of wine is recommended to a patient for health reasons and the patient doesn't do it strictly because he doesn't like the taste, then the patient isn't practicing temperance. Temperance is about control in doing the right thing when the easier thing to do is give in.

You asked if I would offer children alcohol. My own children, only after a certain age, and in close monitoring, yes -- a little bit -- and of course judging by the children's behavior. This is used as a model of teaching moderation and temperance. It is not a lesson that "drink as much as you want when you is" is OK. In fact, the purpose is to teach the opposite -- that things like this can't regarded carelessly.

Then again, I'd also want them to recognize that their father chooses not to drink alcohol -- that not drinking alcohol is as much of a valid option as growing up to enjoy it in moderation.

This is how I remember my parents doing this. My father also doesn't drink alcohol -- he's a root beer and green tea kind of guy. My mother, however, enjoys wine but only has one glass on occasions. They taught me and my 5 brothers and sisters this from a young age and we've all grown to in understanding this. Granted, we're only an example, but I think it's a fair one. It's also legal as well (§10–117) provided it is not in leading to intoxication, provided by the parents, or done within religious ceremonies. It goes state-by-state, but this is at least going by Maryland where I grew up as a child.
 
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You are correct, yet the sin goes much deeper than that. Food becomes an idol to the glutton...there's the sin of it. Another thing---one doesn't have to be the obese person to be a glutton. Thin people can revere the god of food as well. The harm is not only to the physical body but the most severe harm is to the soul and spirit of one who places anything in greater importance than God in one's life.

I think we're both on the same page here. :)
 
Paul gave his protege, Timothy, some great advice, as it is likely that young Timothy in his frequent travels would suffer Montezuma's Revenge, often!

1 Timothy 5:23
Don’t drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.
 
I guess we could go on for a long time about this topic and I sure could as well. I had a really bad problem with alcohol about twenty years ago and I was a mess. I do not know if it was a sin or not I only knew that I had a addiction to it. I lived and breathed it and I was struggling many years before I figured out that if I turned my life over to Christ anything was possible. It only took twenty or so years to realize that I did not have to do this alone anymore. So for me it was an addiction that the Lord removed from my life. Now over eating !!!! That is something the Lord and I are working on now, so I will update you all. Bless you all and I send love and peace out to you all tonight.
 
Well thats good cos i get the impression some ppl bit miffed that they enjoy it when it really bad for other ppl. Thats a sinful attitude in itself to cause another person to stumble or make fun of them just cos you cant resist temptation and think you immune or special. Not that im ever tempted cos, Jesus set me free, never liked it in first place. And I dont choose to hang round with ppl that always drink, the ones that cross my path are those who for some reason or another need to be actually with a sober person.

Its like saying i enjoy sex its not a sin so everyone else should be partaking. Um no. Theres certain things God doesnt want us abusing our bodies and alcohol is a drug that is widely and easily abused. Ive never had a doctor recommend alcohol to me and it would be REALLY strange if there were any doctors who prescribed this. They only say if you do drink, drink in moderation, but loads of people cant and easily get addicted so the advice is useless. Doctors also used to recommend people smoke, so I dont set too much store by what doctors say!


Anyway...not much more to say. Please dont argue, its not christian. If you were with me and drinking I would prolly not talk to you much cos ppl when drinking get all weird, and I def would not drink alcohol with you, id be drinking anything that dont have alcohol in it. If you offered to me I would refuse, and if you teased me about it Id say lighten up, just drunk normal drinks like normal ppl do. And also, I know some ppl if I took their bottle away cos they acting tipsy, would get very angry with me and insist they not drunk. Been through it all before. Not doing that again.

Praise the lord if you can drink something deadly and it doesnt kill you.
 
Well thats good cos i get the impression some ppl bit miffed that they enjoy it when it really bad for other ppl. Thats a sinful attitude in itself to cause another person to stumble or make fun of them just cos you cant resist temptation and think you immune or special. Not that im ever tempted cos, Jesus set me free, never liked it in first place. And I dont choose to hang round with ppl that always drink, the ones that cross my path are those who for some reason or another need to be actually with a sober person.

Its like saying i enjoy sex its not a sin so everyone else should be partaking. Um no. Theres certain things God doesnt want us abusing our bodies and alcohol is a drug that is widely and easily abused. Ive never had a doctor recommend alcohol to me and it would be REALLY strange if there were any doctors who prescribed this. They only say if you do drink, drink in moderation, but loads of people cant and easily get addicted so the advice is useless. Doctors also used to recommend people smoke, so I dont set too much store by what doctors say!


Anyway...not much more to say. Please dont argue, its not christian. If you were with me and drinking I would prolly not talk to you much cos ppl when drinking get all weird, and I def would not drink alcohol with you, id be drinking anything that dont have alcohol in it. If you offered to me I would refuse, and if you teased me about it Id say lighten up, just drunk normal drinks like normal ppl do. And also, I know some ppl if I took their bottle away cos they acting tipsy, would get very angry with me and insist they not drunk. Been through it all before. Not doing that again.

Praise the lord if you can drink something deadly and it doesnt kill you.

I should think by your profession that for one to drink any alcohol before you it would be a stumbling block to you.
 
That's an interesting perspective. You're right that it is a sin when practiced, but from the explanation I keep finding as to why it is a sin, it's because it's a lack of control and an unhealthy obsession. Though I don't think you're wrong either -- harm to the body the physical result.
Is it maybe because you are devoting yourself to food as if a god. Then it turns to an idol, above God.
 
lanolin, you are right, alcohol is easily abused, so also cigarettes, money, food, sex,and many more. We have to be weary, especially if it can make someone else fall. That is probably more important. Pay said it.
 
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