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Softly
Guest
I needed to hear that. You're a very special person, thank you [emoji178]
S
Softly
Guest
This has been on my mind, it doesn't fit with what we've been told to believe.
Whether she is punished by God or not, is digressing from the possibility of the woman being an individual.
I bought Strongs Concordance and looked up every word and added the original meaning and inference to each word I could. It does seem like a like a secret woman of God.
The bible says to rightly divide the word and I'm trying too within the word as it is written.
I've written a couple random verses about the proposed woman with the original meanings for each word I can and if you feel inclined to read it and see what you think, please do and if you disagree let me know why, where in the bible it says she is not an individual, she comes from a group of people but is distinguished separately from them as the story unfolds. No one knew the messiah to be Jesus until he arrived either, God hides things when he wants too, retrospectively it's obvious to us who Jesus is but still a lot doubted and still do... Could God have a plan bigger than our minds can comprehend.
It reads like this:
Jeremiah 6:2
I have (likened) cut off/silenced the daughter of (Zion) the parched place to a (comely) home and (delicate) effeminate woman.
And the daughter of Zion is (left) preserved/saved as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a (besieged) preserved/kept secret (city) town/excitement.
Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a (voice) sound as of a woman in (travail) sickness/weakness, and the (anguish) trouble/of a rival wife as of her that bringeth forth her first (child) first born, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that (bewaileth) gasping for breathe herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughterof Zion, like a woman in travail/child birth: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORDshall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be (defiled) godless, and let our eye look upon Zion.
But they know not the (thoughts) device/planning/cunning of the LORD, neither (understand) separate mentally/discern they his counsel/purpose: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
(Arise) become powerful/valid/proven and (thresh) trample on/trample down, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will (consecrate) exterminate/destroy their gain unto the LORD, and their (substance) strength/might/efficiency unto the Lord of the whole earth/land/ground.
I still think she is woman, an individual.
It gets more and more interesting with Strongs meanings.
I'm not sure, I'm really not, but God says it is a woman, beautiful, delicate, not a city and Jeremiah 6:2 affirms this. She's separated from the parched place into a home for a delicate woman and referred to as a secret with a rival wife. It's just SO fascinating. Maybe I need to do other things other than read and try and understand the bible but it's captivated me in its depth.
Whether she is punished by God or not, is digressing from the possibility of the woman being an individual.
I bought Strongs Concordance and looked up every word and added the original meaning and inference to each word I could. It does seem like a like a secret woman of God.
The bible says to rightly divide the word and I'm trying too within the word as it is written.
I've written a couple random verses about the proposed woman with the original meanings for each word I can and if you feel inclined to read it and see what you think, please do and if you disagree let me know why, where in the bible it says she is not an individual, she comes from a group of people but is distinguished separately from them as the story unfolds. No one knew the messiah to be Jesus until he arrived either, God hides things when he wants too, retrospectively it's obvious to us who Jesus is but still a lot doubted and still do... Could God have a plan bigger than our minds can comprehend.
It reads like this:
Jeremiah 6:2
I have (likened) cut off/silenced the daughter of (Zion) the parched place to a (comely) home and (delicate) effeminate woman.
And the daughter of Zion is (left) preserved/saved as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a (besieged) preserved/kept secret (city) town/excitement.
Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a (voice) sound as of a woman in (travail) sickness/weakness, and the (anguish) trouble/of a rival wife as of her that bringeth forth her first (child) first born, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that (bewaileth) gasping for breathe herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughterof Zion, like a woman in travail/child birth: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORDshall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be (defiled) godless, and let our eye look upon Zion.
But they know not the (thoughts) device/planning/cunning of the LORD, neither (understand) separate mentally/discern they his counsel/purpose: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
(Arise) become powerful/valid/proven and (thresh) trample on/trample down, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will (consecrate) exterminate/destroy their gain unto the LORD, and their (substance) strength/might/efficiency unto the Lord of the whole earth/land/ground.
I still think she is woman, an individual.
It gets more and more interesting with Strongs meanings.
I'm not sure, I'm really not, but God says it is a woman, beautiful, delicate, not a city and Jeremiah 6:2 affirms this. She's separated from the parched place into a home for a delicate woman and referred to as a secret with a rival wife. It's just SO fascinating. Maybe I need to do other things other than read and try and understand the bible but it's captivated me in its depth.
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S
Softly
Guest
I've been troubled after writing the last post. People have changed their lives believing they are the bride of Christ, they wouldn't haven't tried to be good and do good. If I'm right or wrong, if Strong is right or wrong, I don't know, but it's wrong to take away hope from people by looking into the meaning of things on a deeper level. I was never brought up to believe I was marrying Christ or that he was the messiah (it's been a recent revelation for me), so I don't care if I'm right or wrong, emotionally it doesn't affect me at all, it hasn't changed me at all, but people live the lives they do because they believe they are the bride of Christ and its wrong of me to speak otherwise coz it can hurt and confuse people. Whatever gods plan is we'll find out in due time anyway. I'm sorry I spoke about this, I really am. I never mean to upset anyone.
The "woman" is Israel, the errant wife, loved and cut off, yet forgiven by God, and soon to be restored to Him.
I don't believe you need to be sorry for asking questions and speaking about this. It appears that you are seeking for the truth and that is the right thing to do. It is not wrong to ask questions, especially if your intentions are honest. I believe people need to question what they believe and why they believe it, and not just blindly accept it. It is good that you are concerned about possibly hurting or confusing people with your questions, but if questions are able to do this then they need to understand why this is so. It would only benefit someone to dig deeper in order to find out why these questions are causing these reactions.
As i read the last paragraph....God desires that you read and allow the Bible to captivate you. And as you trust and seek Him for understanding.....He will give it to you (James 1:5-6) His Word is not meant to be a secret from His Children (dt. 29:29). I don't believe that the daughter of zion is a real woman, but that is just my understanding. I will be praying that God will continue to lead you to the place where you become settled in what He shows you.
Blessings of grace and peace be yours in abundance
Hello Softly,
I differ from Euphemia and Cturtle, because I do not believe that the Church is the Bride.
I have only now read through your thread, and love your honestly, and your earnest desire to know the truth concerning this subject.
I do not wish to cause you confusion, Softly.
The Church which is the body of Christ, is described as the fullness of Him that filleth all in all. (Eph.1:22,23). It will become 'a perfect MAN.'
The Bride, consists of the believing remnant of Israel, and of 'overcomers', who have been faithful under trial, such as Abraham, who looked for a city whose builder and maker is God.' The New Jerusalem' (see also, Heb.11). Also, of those who are faithful during the tribulation period. These are the pearl of great price.
Wait on the Lord, Softly, and continue to seek to rightly divide the Word of God.
With love in Christ Jesus.
Chris
I differ from Euphemia and Cturtle, because I do not believe that the Church is the Bride.
I have only now read through your thread, and love your honestly, and your earnest desire to know the truth concerning this subject.
I do not wish to cause you confusion, Softly.
The Church which is the body of Christ, is described as the fullness of Him that filleth all in all. (Eph.1:22,23). It will become 'a perfect MAN.'
The Bride, consists of the believing remnant of Israel, and of 'overcomers', who have been faithful under trial, such as Abraham, who looked for a city whose builder and maker is God.' The New Jerusalem' (see also, Heb.11). Also, of those who are faithful during the tribulation period. These are the pearl of great price.
Wait on the Lord, Softly, and continue to seek to rightly divide the Word of God.
With love in Christ Jesus.
Chris
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S
Softly
Guest
Thank you Complete,
I don't know how many people consist of the Bride (I used to think the pope was the only bride...[emoji15]...), and I'll definitely look into what you meantioned, nor do I know if Zion and the Virgin/daughter of Zion should be read separately to interpret them better coz God refers to them separately. It seems that how we choose to use or select the meanings behind words will change the meanings. What caught my attention is that anguish comes from the root word meaning 'rival wife' and thus 'trouble' and that two different words for preserved and kept secret are used in the one sentence regarding a lodge in a garden of cucumbers.
I'm compelled to look into it further but I think I'll do it in private, because my conscience is stronger. [emoji173]️
Love to you all [emoji5]️
I don't know how many people consist of the Bride (I used to think the pope was the only bride...[emoji15]...), and I'll definitely look into what you meantioned, nor do I know if Zion and the Virgin/daughter of Zion should be read separately to interpret them better coz God refers to them separately. It seems that how we choose to use or select the meanings behind words will change the meanings. What caught my attention is that anguish comes from the root word meaning 'rival wife' and thus 'trouble' and that two different words for preserved and kept secret are used in the one sentence regarding a lodge in a garden of cucumbers.
I'm compelled to look into it further but I think I'll do it in private, because my conscience is stronger. [emoji173]️
Love to you all [emoji5]️
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Hello again, @Softly,
* The first reference to Zion: (2 Sam 5:7) (2 Samual 5:6-9) ( 1Chron. 11:4-6)
'Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion:
the same is the city of David.'
* Zion is equivalent to the heavenly Jerusalem: (Heb. 12:22,23) (Rev.14:1,4) (Gal. 4:25,26)
' ... But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
* In the Old Testament this heavenly city is unrevealed, and Zion refers there to the centre of the Lord's administration not in days of perfect peace, but in the midst of enemies. (Psa. 110:2,5) (Psa. 2:6,8,9,12) (Isa. 59:20:60:1) (Joel 2:1; 3:16,21) (Isa. 61:3,6).
All of these references show the Lord reigning in Zion, in the midst of enemies. During those days Israel shall be named, 'The Priests of the Lord' and 'Ministers of our God', the day when those that mourn 'in Zion' shall have beauty for ashes.
Thank you, Softly,
I acknowledge your need to continue your study in private.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
* The first reference to Zion: (2 Sam 5:7) (2 Samual 5:6-9) ( 1Chron. 11:4-6)
'Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion:
the same is the city of David.'
* Zion is equivalent to the heavenly Jerusalem: (Heb. 12:22,23) (Rev.14:1,4) (Gal. 4:25,26)
' ... But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
* In the Old Testament this heavenly city is unrevealed, and Zion refers there to the centre of the Lord's administration not in days of perfect peace, but in the midst of enemies. (Psa. 110:2,5) (Psa. 2:6,8,9,12) (Isa. 59:20:60:1) (Joel 2:1; 3:16,21) (Isa. 61:3,6).
All of these references show the Lord reigning in Zion, in the midst of enemies. During those days Israel shall be named, 'The Priests of the Lord' and 'Ministers of our God', the day when those that mourn 'in Zion' shall have beauty for ashes.
Thank you, Softly,
I acknowledge your need to continue your study in private.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
yes I believe she is a real person.
metaphors and personifications and whole groups of people "fitting in" or becoming LIKE another (such as we are to become LIKE Jesus doesn't make you Him actually! she is the bride.
and too many men call themselves the bride and take that role and left women aghast honestly.
especially the REAL one.
metaphors and personifications and whole groups of people "fitting in" or becoming LIKE another (such as we are to become LIKE Jesus doesn't make you Him actually! she is the bride.
and too many men call themselves the bride and take that role and left women aghast honestly.
especially the REAL one.
I don't feel a male should be the bride
roles are specific I think.he even addresses her as a daughter
"didn't YOU JUST call me "father" and frine dfrom your youth? WHY THEN have you become "as an adulterous WIFE?" etc
Hello @Shushan,
I have just noticed your entries here, concerning the bride. Sorry not to have answered before.
In the 'Doctrinal Forum' there have been threads concerning 'the Bride' within the last six months, revealing that there are differences in understanding among believers concerning it.
* The main Scriptures concerning it are found in Revelation 21 and 22.
*Under the terms of the Old Covenant, Israel were related to the Lord as a wife to a husband (see Jeremiah 31:32 and Ezekiel 16:7-14), the word, 'I spread my skirt over thee' (Ezek. 16:8), when compared with Ruth 3:9 - 'And he said, "Who art thou?" And she answered," I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman."
- reveals the marriage relationship, which is explained by Ezekiel as entering into a 'covenant' and 'prospering as a kingdom' (Ezekiel 16:13).
* Israel proved unfaithful to their marriage vow, and Ezekiel likened them to 'a wife that committeth adultery' (Ezek. 16:32), and says that Israel will be judged, 'as a woman that breaketh wedlock' (Ezek. 16:38). The word, 'breach of promise' is used by God of Israel in Numbers 14:34; and 'divorce' by Jeremiah (ch. 3:8) to set forth this people's unhappy position (Jeremiah 3:1,14). Isaiah also speaks of 'divorce' (Isaiah 50:1).
* Isaiah also speaks in glowing terms of the ultimate restoration of Israel in (Isaiah 62:4).
* The prophet Hosea, prophecies the interval between Israel's laying aside and their restoration, and we see the words, 'she is not My wife, neither am I her husband', in the early part of Hosea, but after the long period of divorcement (ch. 3 [3]), all is reversed and restored at the end, with the word, 'I will betroth thee unto Me for ever'. (Hosea 2:23).
* However the Bride of the Lamb must be distinguished from the national restoration of Israel, set forth in the symbol of a wife divorced, then taken back, forgiven and blessed.
* Revelation is particularly concerned with a believing, overcoming remnant, and it is this overcoming remnant out of Israel that is depicted under the figure of a Bride. The 'Lamb' is the Bridegroom. The Heavenly city that comes down out of heaven in Revelation 21, is the Bride of the Lamb, and is the inheritance of the overcomer, like Abraham, who waited for the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem (Heb. 11:10).
* In Revelation 19 the marriage supper of the Lamb is seen. Genesis 29:27,28, shows us that a specific period of time was observed for this ceremony, and it would seem from Revelation that the millennium fulfills that period for 'the Bride of the Lamb', after which the holy city is seen descending from heaven .
With love in Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
I have just noticed your entries here, concerning the bride. Sorry not to have answered before.
In the 'Doctrinal Forum' there have been threads concerning 'the Bride' within the last six months, revealing that there are differences in understanding among believers concerning it.
* The main Scriptures concerning it are found in Revelation 21 and 22.
*Under the terms of the Old Covenant, Israel were related to the Lord as a wife to a husband (see Jeremiah 31:32 and Ezekiel 16:7-14), the word, 'I spread my skirt over thee' (Ezek. 16:8), when compared with Ruth 3:9 - 'And he said, "Who art thou?" And she answered," I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman."
- reveals the marriage relationship, which is explained by Ezekiel as entering into a 'covenant' and 'prospering as a kingdom' (Ezekiel 16:13).
* Israel proved unfaithful to their marriage vow, and Ezekiel likened them to 'a wife that committeth adultery' (Ezek. 16:32), and says that Israel will be judged, 'as a woman that breaketh wedlock' (Ezek. 16:38). The word, 'breach of promise' is used by God of Israel in Numbers 14:34; and 'divorce' by Jeremiah (ch. 3:8) to set forth this people's unhappy position (Jeremiah 3:1,14). Isaiah also speaks of 'divorce' (Isaiah 50:1).
* Isaiah also speaks in glowing terms of the ultimate restoration of Israel in (Isaiah 62:4).
* The prophet Hosea, prophecies the interval between Israel's laying aside and their restoration, and we see the words, 'she is not My wife, neither am I her husband', in the early part of Hosea, but after the long period of divorcement (ch. 3 [3]), all is reversed and restored at the end, with the word, 'I will betroth thee unto Me for ever'. (Hosea 2:23).
* However the Bride of the Lamb must be distinguished from the national restoration of Israel, set forth in the symbol of a wife divorced, then taken back, forgiven and blessed.
* Revelation is particularly concerned with a believing, overcoming remnant, and it is this overcoming remnant out of Israel that is depicted under the figure of a Bride. The 'Lamb' is the Bridegroom. The Heavenly city that comes down out of heaven in Revelation 21, is the Bride of the Lamb, and is the inheritance of the overcomer, like Abraham, who waited for the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem (Heb. 11:10).
* In Revelation 19 the marriage supper of the Lamb is seen. Genesis 29:27,28, shows us that a specific period of time was observed for this ceremony, and it would seem from Revelation that the millennium fulfills that period for 'the Bride of the Lamb', after which the holy city is seen descending from heaven .
With love in Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
Agreed!
IF you want to do the right thing by God, allow me to say to you to put away the idea of Jesus walking up to you either in a dream or reality.
It's customary to introduce yourself first. Since you started here, let me recommend that you take a few minutes to read the Community Rules.
I believe the confusion comes in when you separate Israel from the body of Christ. Or two separate people of God. The bride is spiritual Israel
'And hath put all things under His feet
and gave Him to be the head
over all things to the church which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
(Eph 1:22,23)
Hi Coop,
Israel (as a nation) IS separate from the body of Christ, though isn't it? They are two separate 'peoples' of God. The Bride is 'spiritual Israel', 'Overcomers,' yes: who have a 'heavenly' hope; not just that which concerns the promises made to Abraham, and his descendants, concerning the land etc.,
The Body of Christ is separate from that. It has a heavenly hope, yes, but one which has quite different promises attached to it. It is a spiritual company, which came into operation at the laying aside in unbelief (temporarily) of Israel in Acts 28, at which time, Paul also received the revelation concerning the church which is Christ's Body, the instruction relevant to the dispensation which came into existence following the laying aside of Israel; and made known in 'Ephesians', 'Philippians','Colossians', '1 & 2 Timothy' and 'Titus' - the letters written from prison by Paul the 'Steward' of this administration.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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I agree partly with u. But isn't the body of Christ, the bride as well? The old covenant were types and shadows fulfilled in Christ as Hebrews states. Even the physical nation of Israel. "For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bond woman, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bond woman was born according to the flesh, and he of the free woman through PROMISE, which things are SYMBOLIC." Galatians 4:22-24.. And it goes on to speak of the two covenants. Bondage is the Jerusalem now is, and the Jerusalem above which is free, the mother of us all.. Romans 2:28-29 states, he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly of the flesh, but he is a Jew inwardly that of the Spirit and heart.. Romans 4 states, For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH.. And Ephesians says, remember you once Gentiles in the flesh... Without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise... But now in Christ have been brought near by the blood of Christ. He is our peace, who has MADE BOTH ONE, and broken down the middle wall of separation.. To create ONE new man from the two, thus making peace and reconciling both to God in ONE body through the cross.. Now made fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.. That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs. Galatians 3 says there is neither Jew nor Greek.. For you all are one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christs then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.. Of the new heaven the new earth, and heavenly Jerusalem revelations 21.. And there are many more scriptures to prove the body of Christ and the bride are same, the true Israel of God according to the election of grace. And I would ask as well, who are the true Hebrew physical descendants of Israel today?? It certainly isn't the Anglo Saxon Europeans occupying the land there today. The Ashkenazi "Jews".
Hello @Coop,
You quote from Ephesians, concerning the Gentiles being made 'nigh'. But the unity is 'in Christ', and 'in spirit'. Each member is brought nigh to God - 'in Christ'.
Israel had at this time been laid aside in unbelief (temporarily), the Olive Tree had been cut down, although the root remained, to sprout again in God's time. This is a newly created company, a unity in Christ - One Body. (independent of Israel)
'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit
in the bond of peace.
There is -
one body, and
one Spirit, even as ye are called in
one hope of your calling;
One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
(Eph 4:3-6) and through all,
and in you all.'
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Amen to Ephesians 4!! But they (unbelieving Hebrews), who are the branches, were broken off because of unbelief and believing Gentiles grafted into that olive tree. The olive tree is true Israel, made up of BOTH Jews and Gentiles