American 'christians' It Is Time To Test Yourselves...

[MichaelH]

OK chief, I am actually going to ask you to answer some questions. But first- lets address this:


In one of your previous posts you wrote-

"Waiting on his explanation how he makes a Greek Female noun into a Greek verb. Like to see how he pulls this off. I have yet to find one post tribber able to do so".

What word or scripture you are referring to?

TC

That .PDF said....................

There must be a falling away first, this group is known as the wicked.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:3)

in Greek means ‘a departing from the faith’...

How can this be a group "The Wicked" when the Greek makes it a title of one. Even the KJV capitalized the"W" Some translations say Lawless ONE, or Wicked ONE to convey the Greek.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:8)

How can Apostasia "Falling away" by itself convey a Greek Action Verb while describing at the same time what it's falling away from? (there are 4 Greek verbs to choose) How is that possible? Greek Female nouns can't do that, but according to the PDF, they suddenly and magically can.

A female noun needs the Male noun after or defined before in the Article. Exactly like the Word was used in Acts.

Which should have been a big clue, but I guess not.


Aphistemi= Depart from
Apo= away
Histemi =Stand

Apostasia literally means to leave a previous standing, or to depart from a place.

The .PDF said the Word means to Depart from Faith......................... Where in the World does it get that from?

Just page 3 and we are already running into ignorance and grade school understanding.

A Greek female noun can not define by itself what it's connected to.
Simple understanding of Greek most know.

I can say I have faith............... That does not define Faith in what.

I am going to the Wedding............ Who's Wedding.

Both Wedding and Faith are Greek female nouns.

The Holy Spirit would have had to use the Word Parapipto. It's a verb that means to error or leave truth, or fall from what is true. Like the English Word Apostasy.



Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So we know it's not the Church, it can't be those teaching error because they are not the Lord's church, Like the church of Satan in California, or the Mormon Church, and many pretend churches that promote homosexuality.... They are not the Lord's church.

So it can't be the Lord's church falling away............ Must be America?

get to explaining ...................... and we are just page 3 of the .PDF................

1) Can you explain to our readers this Blatant lie and misuse of words, Twisting scripture? (Like saying Apostasia means something that is not even in the Greek) As in why the deception?

2) Can you explain to our readers how Greek Female nouns can suddenly just become a Verb it does not mean? How does that happen? What point did Greek female nouns start defining themselves?

b) How hard is it to go to Acts to see how Apostasia was used?? Seriously.

3) Can you explain to our readers How The Wicked One, suddenly becomes a group when all other translations, including the one the .PDF used says different.

4) Can you explain who the heck is "Falling Away" pretending that Apostasia was not used...... Who is falling away? America? Who?
We know Paul did not mean the Church......... Paul said this about the church.

Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus said..........
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Mitspa]

Really? The quotes that he used are from prince? I thought he said it was from a dream of his? I must have misread his post. wow YUCK. Cyber- take a hike with the Joseph Prince stuff He is the false prophet of false prophets!!

Thanks Mitspa

TC

I agree with Cyber, he is by far the most godly and biblically correct teacher alive today.

 

[cyberlink]

Hey Cyber, those are the most uplifting words I have read on this forum...Thank you for sharing them.
Is the 'Joseph Ministry' yours? I am interested in more of what you believe- can you PM me with some info( I don't want to clutter this post with a different topic). Thank you again and may God's grace be with you,
TC

thank you Town Crier for your encouragement. no, The Joseph Ministry is not mine. this was something God showed me was going to happen in the last days. i am one of three people i know of whom have received this revelation. there are probably many more. note: when this ministry surfaces, it may not have the name "The Joseph Ministry", this is the name God identified it by. i'll try to message you on this site.....cyber

 

[cyberlink]

I agree with Cyber, he is by far the most godly and biblically correct teacher alive today.

hi mitspa, i've never heard of joseph prince. basically, i don't listen to any teachers 'out there'. i just get my encouragement and fellowship from my church. an evangelical free church in lancaster co. pennsylvania.

 

[Mitspa]

hi mitspa, i've never heard of joseph prince. basically, i don't listen to any teachers 'out there'. i just get my encouragement and fellowship from my church. an evangelical free church in lancaster co. pennsylvania.

You should check him out, because its for sure what the Lord was speaking to you!

 

[MichaelH]

You should check him out, because its for sure what the Lord was speaking to you!

I never really listened to a full sermon by Prince. He seems very positive and upbeat though. Just so many to listen to, and study on your own. I can list 10 that would be good to listen to........ but we have to eat sometime, work and eat.... then sleep... did I mention eating?

 

[The Town Crier]

hi mitspa, i've never heard of joseph prince. basically, i don't listen to any teachers 'out there'. i just get my encouragement and fellowship from my church. an evangelical free church in lancaster co. pennsylvania.

My apologies Cyber- I should have let you respond before I assumed that Mitspa knew what he was talking about. By all means message me with your info! God Bless

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

Michael H

Your first question-

How can this be a group "The Wicked" when the Greek makes it a title of one. Even the KJV capitalized the"W" Some translations say Lawless ONE, or Wicked ONE to convey the Greek.

My response:

Let’s look at the ‘wicked: It clearly says ‘they’ and ‘them’:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now- I am not the smartest guy on the block, but ‘they’ and ‘them’ does mean more than one person doesn’t it?

Your next question was:

How can Apostasia "Falling away" by itself convey a Greek Action Verb while describing at the same time what it's falling away from? (there are 4 Greek verbs to choose) How is that possible? Greek Female nouns can't do that, but according to the PDF, they suddenly and magically can.

My response:

Here is what the Strongs says about that word(the Strongs has been around awhile and used by a few ‘scholars’ so it seems to be fairly reliable..)

G646

ἀποστασία

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


It clearly says-defection from the truth. (Defect means to leave or depart) Now why is it a ‘female’…because its root word is female because it has to do with ‘divorce’ or separation

G647

ἀποστάσιον

apostasion

ap-os-tas'-ee-on

Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.

Keep in mind that God calls Babylon a woman and harlot. I’m not going to get real deep into that because I could write a book on it and I don’t have the time. I will say this though. If we both got stranded in the wilderness in the say the late 1600 ‘s with just a Bible(a KJV for the sake of this discussion) and no knowledge of Greek , Hebrew, or even a ‘proper English’ education- Could we still learn the truth? Would the Holy Spirit be able to teach us the word of God out of the Bible without knowing any Greek or Hebrew or man’s definitions for sentence structure? The answer is YES! Of course God can teach us His Holy word using just His word and the Holy Spirit. In fact, most people who read the Bible over the last couple thousand years did not have formal educations and God did just fine converting their hearts without them having a formal education.

Now- where is the best place to get an answer to scripture? Is it in a Greek Lexicon or a Strong’s dictionary…or by looking in the word of God? The best place to find answers is in the Bible. Not in the wisdom of men:

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

If you want to know what something means in the New Testament, all you have to do is go read the Old Testament. Everything Jesus taught us came out of there. Scripture overrides man’s carnal reasoning. You want to wrestle with ‘male VS female’ nouns and verbs…go right ahead. I would rather go into scripture and see what they were quoting from to understand what they meant- Precept upon precept- line upon line, here a little there a little.


Now- my turn…Tell me this- Does Jesus return ‘on the clouds’ twice or just once?


(keep in mind that Mark thirteen verses 24-26 are the Lord’s own words: )


Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of troubleand distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Well- does he come back 'in the clouds' twice or just once? Are you going to go out on limb and contradict the words of Jesus?

I won’t answer anymore of your questions until you answer that question…


TC

 

[cyberlink]

You should check him out, because its for sure what the Lord was speaking to you!

thanks mitspa, i'll look for him online. so nice you spoke up when the other guy got upset with me. carla

 

[Glomung]

Before today I'd never heard of him. From what I've been able to garner from the net he is quite popular, a fairly famous preacher on the subject of grace, and has had no real scandals to stick to him.
Good for him, may he bless many and may God support him in his works.

 

[cyberlink]

My apologies Cyber- I should have let you respond before I assumed that Mitspa knew what he was talking about. By all means message me with your info! God Bless

TC

thanks tc for restoring the peace. carla

 

[The Town Crier]

thanks tc for restoring the peace. carla

Sure thing Cyber...Have a blessed day!
TC

 

[The Town Crier]

That .PDF said....................

There must be a falling away first, this group is known as the wicked.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:3)

in Greek means ‘a departing from the faith’...

How can this be a group "The Wicked" when the Greek makes it a title of one. Even the KJV capitalized the"W" Some translations say Lawless ONE, or Wicked ONE to convey the Greek.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:8)

How can Apostasia "Falling away" by itself convey a Greek Action Verb while describing at the same time what it's falling away from? (there are 4 Greek verbs to choose) How is that possible? Greek Female nouns can't do that, but according to the PDF, they suddenly and magically can.

A female noun needs the Male noun after or defined before in the Article. Exactly like the Word was used in Acts.

Which should have been a big clue, but I guess not.


Aphistemi= Depart from
Apo= away
Histemi =Stand

Apostasia literally means to leave a previous standing, or to depart from a place.

The .PDF said the Word means to Depart from Faith......................... Where in the World does it get that from?

Just page 3 and we are already running into ignorance and grade school understanding.

A Greek female noun can not define by itself what it's connected to.
Simple understanding of Greek most know.

I can say I have faith............... That does not define Faith in what.

I am going to the Wedding............ Who's Wedding.

Both Wedding and Faith are Greek female nouns.

The Holy Spirit would have had to use the Word Parapipto. It's a verb that means to error or leave truth, or fall from what is true. Like the English Word Apostasy.



Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So we know it's not the Church, it can't be those teaching error because they are not the Lord's church, Like the church of Satan in California, or the Mormon Church, and many pretend churches that promote homosexuality.... They are not the Lord's church.

So it can't be the Lord's church falling away............ Must be America?

get to explaining ...................... and we are just page 3 of the .PDF................

1) Can you explain to our readers this Blatant lie and misuse of words, Twisting scripture? (Like saying Apostasia means something that is not even in the Greek) As in why the deception?

2) Can you explain to our readers how Greek Female nouns can suddenly just become a Verb it does not mean? How does that happen? What point did Greek female nouns start defining themselves?

b) How hard is it to go to Acts to see how Apostasia was used?? Seriously.

3) Can you explain to our readers How The Wicked One, suddenly becomes a group when all other translations, including the one the .PDF used says different.

4) Can you explain who the heck is "Falling Away" pretending that Apostasia was not used...... Who is falling away? America? Who?
We know Paul did not mean the Church......... Paul said this about the church.

Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus said..........
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Just in case you missed it..I posted a reply to this- it is the 6th one above this post

TC

 

[MichaelH]

Michael H

Your first question-

How can this be a group "The Wicked" when the Greek makes it a title of one. Even the KJV capitalized the"W" Some translations say Lawless ONE, or Wicked ONE to convey the Greek.

My response:

Let’s look at the ‘wicked: It clearly says ‘they’ and ‘them’:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Well then your right and all the other translators are stupid, even the KJV you use. It could be though your not reading through it. The whole Article is about a Son of Perdition..... Greek title who sets up as God, who is the Wicked One.
He decives the World with signs.

HE must be revealed in His time, and there is a restrainer that needs removed before He is reveled.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:8)

The whole subject is the "HE" Hence why the translators correctly translated it "Wicked ONE" they are not wrong, you are.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2Th 2:9-11)

There is a party of ONE "HIM" deceives....... the people that follow him.

Hence why the KJV Gave Wicked a capital letter, unless you believe the bible you use is wrong........ If you believe that, then get another translation.

Your next question was:

How can Apostasia "Falling away" by itself convey a Greek Action Verb while describing at the same time what it's falling away from? (there are 4 Greek verbs to choose) How is that possible? Greek Female nouns can't do that, but according to the PDF, they suddenly and magically can.

My response:

Here is what the Strongs says about that word(the Strongs has been around awhile and used by a few ‘scholars’ so it seems to be fairly reliable..)

G646

ἀποστασία

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


It clearly says-defection from the truth. (Defect means to leave or depart) Now why is it a ‘female’…because its root word is female because it has to do with ‘divorce’ or separation

G647

ἀποστάσιον

apostasion

ap-os-tas'-ee-on

Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.



Now- where is the best place to get an answer to scripture? Is it in a Greek Lexicon or a Strong’s dictionary…or by looking in the word of God? The best place to find answers is in the Bible. Not in the wisdom of men:

First, the Strongs, Thayers, are just Greek dictionaries connected to bible words. Dictinaries in understanding how the Word was used, not the Actual Greek meaning in lots of cases.

A Female noun would describe only an event or a thing. Not a Verb Action.
It would be used like God used it before in Acts.,


And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Apostasia Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
(Act 21:21)

This is the form it would need to be in, if it meant what you claim.

You need a male noun the action in this case to define what is departed from. Peritemno is the Verb Apostasia is connected to in this case and the Male noun.

The Holy Spirit did not follow this by putting a circumstance after the Female noun Apostasia. "that day shall not come unless"
so, the Female noun gets defined in the subject of the Article.
Departing with Christ Jesus.

If you followed your own rules, you would see how the Holy Spirit used the Word in Acts, had understanding that nothing that makes up the Word apostasia means forsaking the truth, and not relied on the Greek dictionary, but used the Strongs Word study which would be the actually meaning of the Word, and not how some thought it was used.

And to be completely stupid, you brought up

Strongs Word study actual.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
(2Th 2:3)

Also the Holy Spirit would have used the Action Verb Parapito if the verse said what you claim. You don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused do you?

Where do you make believe up the root for Apostasia to mean fall away from truth. Give me the root you got that from, or you just make that up?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now- my turn…Tell me this- Does Jesus return ‘on the clouds’ twice or just once?


(keep in mind that Mark thirteen verses 24-26 are the Lord’s own words: )


Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of troubleand distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Well- does he come back 'in the clouds' twice or just once? Are you going to go out on limb and contradict the words of Jesus?

I won’t answer anymore of your questions until you answer that question…


TC

I am not getting into Post or Pre Trib............ Finding where He came once, does not denote he did not come for the Church. You would not survive a debate with me any way over this.

Go hunt up all the closed threads and find my post concerning this.

So far, I am not impressed at all.

You did not follow the proper use of the Greek female noun God gave you in Acts, just blew God off.
You got confused why the KJV Capitalized Wicked, and claim you know more than all the translators.

Your smarter than all those who translated the bible...... Your an amazing person.

You did not explain Who is departing or what they are departing from if the Holy Spirit used Parapito.

And to show just how Well you grasp simple language concepts, your brought up the Word apostasion and connected it to Apostasia............. Which is also made up of Apo and histimi.

Apostasia is MADE UP OF THE SAME TWO WORDS + 1 apostasion is made up of............

How the heck can Apostasion have anything to do with Apostasia???

Your grasping of simple language is troubling. Two words that are derived from Parent words can not have a parent child relationship......... Anyone home?

Not impressed at all........... Not even a little. Your going to have to do better than this........ Seriously, I am wondering if I am picking on a child........ child of God we hope. Your not even making this worth my time.

 

[The Town Crier]

Well then your right and all the other translators are stupid, even the KJV you use. It could be though your not reading through it. The whole Article is about a Son of Perdition..... Greek title who sets up as God, who is the Wicked One.
He decives the World with signs.

HE must be revealed in His time, and there is a restrainer that needs removed before He is reveled.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:8)

The whole subject is the "HE" Hence why the translators correctly translated it "Wicked ONE" they are not wrong, you are.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2Th 2:9-11)

There is a party of ONE "HIM" deceives....... the people that follow him.

Hence why the KJV Gave Wicked a capital letter, unless you believe the bible you use is wrong........ If you believe that, then get another translation.






First, the Strongs, Thayers, are just Greek dictionaries connected to bible words. Dictinaries in understanding how the Word was used, not the Actual Greek meaning in lots of cases.

A Female noun would describe only an event or a thing. Not a Verb Action.
It would be used like God used it before in Acts.,


And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Apostasia Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
(Act 21:21)

This is the form it would need to be in, if it meant what you claim.

You need a male noun the action in this case to define what is departed from. Peritemno is the Verb Apostasia is connected to in this case and the Male noun.

The Holy Spirit did not follow this by putting a circumstance after the Female noun Apostasia. "that day shall not come unless"
so, the Female noun gets defined in the subject of the Article.
Departing with Christ Jesus.

If you followed your own rules, you would see how the Holy Spirit used the Word in Acts, had understanding that nothing that makes up the Word apostasia means forsaking the truth, and not relied on the Greek dictionary, but used the Strongs Word study which would be the actually meaning of the Word, and not how some thought it was used.

And to be completely stupid, you brought up

Strongs Word study actual.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
(2Th 2:3)

Also the Holy Spirit would have used the Action Verb Parapito if the verse said what you claim. You don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused do you?

Where do you make believe up the root for Apostasia to mean fall away from truth. Give me the root you got that from, or you just make that up?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not getting into Post or Pre Trib............ Finding where He came once, does not denote he did not come for the Church. You would not survive a debate with me any way over this.

Go hunt up all the closed threads and find my post concerning this.

So far, I am not impressed at all.

You did not follow the proper use of the Greek female noun God gave you in Acts, just blew God off.
You got confused why the KJV Capitalized Wicked, and claim you know more than all the translators.

Your smarter than all those who translated the bible...... Your an amazing person.

You did not explain Who is departing or what they are departing from if the Holy Spirit used Parapito.

And to show just how Well you grasp simple language concepts, your brought up the Word apostasion and connected it to Apostasia............. Which is also made up of Apo and histimi.

Apostasia is MADE UP OF THE SAME TWO WORDS + 1 apostasion is made up of............

How the heck can Apostasion have anything to do with Apostasia???

Your grasping of simple language is troubling. Two words that are derived from Parent words can not have a parent child relationship......... Anyone home?

Not impressed at all........... Not even a little. Your going to have to do better than this........ Seriously, I am wondering if I am picking on a child........ child of God we hope. Your not even making this worth my time.

Michael- you are using carnal reasoning and men's wisdom rather than just simply comparing scripture to scripture. I like how you tried to shuffle the Lord's return off to the side- (given you were so dead set on proving your pre-tribulation rapture theory). The fact is this the Lord will return after the tribulation for us. It is a fact that cannot be disputed.

As for the 'Greek' translations and meanings - Like I said before, the Holy Spirit does not use the wisdom of men to teach His word. You are trying to place a language barrier on this and failing miserably. The fact is-the 'apostasy' or falling away is not the 'catching up'. It is not a physical departure from anywhere! It is a defection from the truth. Whether you like it or not, scripture clearly says it is.

As far as it saying 'even him' it is talking about 'him who is after the workings of Satan...and immediately describes a group of people Just because it does not say it the way you 'think it should' does not change it. I made my case very clearly using the word of God and you made your case using fancy terminology and mans carnal reasoning. This is exactly the kind of thing Paul was talking about when He said he could not feed them with meat because they were unable to bear it. You cannot receive the meat because you are carnal and reason as a man. You might be super intelligent in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and may even be an English and Greek professor,but a man who is alone on an island without a college degree can learn the Bible just as easily as one who has a Harvard education-because the teachings come from the Holy Spirit.

Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall and God giveth grace unto the humble- but resisteth the proud...

You avoided answering my question because you are wrong and you know it, so you attempted to skirt the issue...but I am not going any farther until I get a yes or a no. Does Jesus come back on the clouds more than once? And the question doesnt just have to do with pre or post trib- it also has to do with the apostasy so please answer it...

TC

 

[MichaelH]

What scripture says it's deflection from the Truth? It's not my fault you don't understand what a Greek female noun is or what compound words it's made of. How is that my fault/

Find one compound word that makes up Apostasia that means to leave the truth in anyway?

I also gave you the Greek Break down from the Strongs study. It is actual Greek not just a dictionary.

So your saying your smarter than all the translators, Smarter than Strongs, though you compared a Word to Apostasia that is not even related and a child of words just like Apostasia.

You say the Way the Holy Spirit used Apostasia in Acts is wrong also...... Though I pointed out in that scripture what a Greek Female noun needs to be defined.

What scripture clearly says deflection from the truth and who is deflecting? (It don't have to say exactly deflecting, just convey that idea.)

Why do you believe your the only smart one, and all us and the translators can't tell the difference between ONE and Many.

So, because I actually care how words are used, and use scripture to compare with Acts, and actually understand the Greek somewhat, that makes me and all the scholars, Translators wrong. It makes you right though.


Fancy carnal reasoning (Study to show yourself approved) proves your not ignorant. Got it.

Go search the forum for the post and pre trib debate. Our last one got closed down and a warning about the number of the. However, your concern should not be about some future event, You should be concerned with your ability to understand things.

Your answer is that everyone is wrong, though I provided the proof........... I word things fancy and am carnal..... that is your evidence...........

Amazing.

 

[The Town Crier]

Well then your right and all the other translators are stupid, even the KJV you use. It could be though your not reading through it. The whole Article is about a Son of Perdition..... Greek title who sets up as God, who is the Wicked One.
He decives the World with signs.

HE must be revealed in His time, and there is a restrainer that needs removed before He is reveled.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:8)

The whole subject is the "HE" Hence why the translators correctly translated it "Wicked ONE" they are not wrong, you are.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2Th 2:9-11)

There is a party of ONE "HIM" deceives....... the people that follow him.

Hence why the KJV Gave Wicked a capital letter, unless you believe the bible you use is wrong........ If you believe that, then get another translation.






First, the Strongs, Thayers, are just Greek dictionaries connected to bible words. Dictinaries in understanding how the Word was used, not the Actual Greek meaning in lots of cases.

A Female noun would describe only an event or a thing. Not a Verb Action.
It would be used like God used it before in Acts.,


And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Apostasia Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
(Act 21:21)

This is the form it would need to be in, if it meant what you claim.

You need a male noun the action in this case to define what is departed from. Peritemno is the Verb Apostasia is connected to in this case and the Male noun.

The Holy Spirit did not follow this by putting a circumstance after the Female noun Apostasia. "that day shall not come unless"
so, the Female noun gets defined in the subject of the Article.
Departing with Christ Jesus.

If you followed your own rules, you would see how the Holy Spirit used the Word in Acts, had understanding that nothing that makes up the Word apostasia means forsaking the truth, and not relied on the Greek dictionary, but used the Strongs Word study which would be the actually meaning of the Word, and not how some thought it was used.

And to be completely stupid, you brought up

Strongs Word study actual.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
(2Th 2:3)

Also the Holy Spirit would have used the Action Verb Parapito if the verse said what you claim. You don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused do you?

Where do you make believe up the root for Apostasia to mean fall away from truth. Give me the root you got that from, or you just make that up?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not getting into Post or Pre Trib............ Finding where He came once, does not denote he did not come for the Church. You would not survive a debate with me any way over this.

Go hunt up all the closed threads and find my post concerning this.

So far, I am not impressed at all.

You did not follow the proper use of the Greek female noun God gave you in Acts, just blew God off.
You got confused why the KJV Capitalized Wicked, and claim you know more than all the translators.

Your smarter than all those who translated the bible...... Your an amazing person.

You did not explain Who is departing or what they are departing from if the Holy Spirit used Parapito.

And to show just how Well you grasp simple language concepts, your brought up the Word apostasion and connected it to Apostasia............. Which is also made up of Apo and histimi.

Apostasia is MADE UP OF THE SAME TWO WORDS + 1 apostasion is made up of............

How the heck can Apostasion have anything to do with Apostasia???

Your grasping of simple language is troubling. Two words that are derived from Parent words can not have a parent child relationship......... Anyone home?

Not impressed at all........... Not even a little. Your going to have to do better than this........ Seriously, I am wondering if I am picking on a child........ child of God we hope. Your not even making this worth my time.

Michael- here is another place you forgot to compare Jesus words. You said

"The whole subject is the "HE" Hence why the translators correctly translated it "Wicked ONE" they are not wrong, you are.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2Th 2:9-11)

There is a party of ONE "HIM" deceives....... the people that follow him."


My response:

What that says is 'even him' is who is after the working of Satan...In other words, the 'him' in that is who gets deceived by Satan.

The whole message is the same one Jesus gives about the harvest and 'the wheat and the tares'. Paul just expounds on it a little bit. Jesus said the tares are the children of the wicked one...( read an enemy hath done this Matthew thirteen: 38-39) It is talking about the harvest and when 'the Devil sows tares among the wheat' (same as 'those who are after the workings of Satan')they are gathered and burned in the fire( exactly what it says about the wicked) imagine that. Scripture is consistent. You just need to compare what Paul taught with what Jesus taught. They line up perfect. He was not teaching anything contrary to the Lord.Now back to the other post. Please read it and respond to the question that you avoided answering four times now.... Does Jesus come back on the clouds once or twice? Yes or No?

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

What scripture says it's deflection from the Truth? It's not my fault you don't understand what a Greek female noun is or what compound words it's made of. How is that my fault/

Find one compound word that makes up Apostasia that means to leave the truth in anyway?

I also gave you the Greek Break down from the Strongs study. It is actual Greek not just a dictionary.

So your saying your smarter than all the translators, Smarter than Strongs, though you compared a Word to Apostasia that is not even related and a child of words just like Apostasia.

You say the Way the Holy Spirit used Apostasia in Acts is wrong also...... Though I pointed out in that scripture what a Greek Female noun needs to be defined.

What scripture clearly says deflection from the truth and who is deflecting? (It don't have to say exactly deflecting, just convey that idea.)

Why do you believe your the only smart one, and all us and the translators can't tell the difference between ONE and Many.

So, because I actually care how words are used, and use scripture to compare with Acts, and actually understand the Greek somewhat, that makes me and all the scholars, Translators wrong. It makes you right though.


Fancy carnal reasoning (Study to show yourself approved) proves your not ignorant. Got it.

Go search the forum for the post and pre trib debate. Our last one got closed down and a warning about the number of the. However, your concern should not be about some future event, You should be concerned with your ability to understand things.

Your answer is that everyone is wrong, though I provided the proof........... I word things fancy and am carnal..... that is your evidence...........

Amazing.

Again Michael- you go on a diatribe but avoid answering the question. Does Jesus come back on the clouds twice or once? Oh and clarify for me so I am certain of what you are saying here.


Are you stating that the 'apostasy' is actually the removal of the church?

Again answer the question; Does Jesus come back on the clouds once or twice? This has nothing to do with the pre/post trib...We are done with that - it was a small part and I proved my point already. I want to clarify that you refered to the apostasy as the removal of the church and ...Again, Does Jesus come in the clouds once or twice?It is a simple yes or no answer...

TC

 

[MichaelH]

Again Michael- you go on a diatribe but avoid answering the question. Does Jesus come back on the clouds twice or once? Oh and clarify for me so I am certain of what you are saying here.


Are you stating that the 'apostasy' is actually the removal of the church?

Again answer the question; Does Jesus come back on the clouds once or twice? This has nothing to do with the pre/post trib...We are done with that - it was a small part and I proved my point already. I want to clarify that you refered to the apostasy as the removal of the church and ...Again, Does Jesus come in the clouds once or twice?It is a simple yes or no answer...

TC

Funny how you switch topics when Your answer for the other things I brought up is I use fancy words and the translations are wrong.

what do I have to work with here?

If you can't even Accept what is in your own bible, Connecting the wrong Greek words and mixing parent child up, then what good will speaking about Jesus coming in the clouds do for you?

Are you saying you have more IQ when it comes to defending against the Church being caught up before Tribulation?

You actually want to try to defend that position against me? When the best you come up with is everyone is wrong?

I compared Apostasia for you in acts on how it's used.
I explained what type of noun it was and told you the VERB you would need to make the scripture say what you claim.
I Explained how that Wicked Group, is actually a person, and even most all the translations agree, I even showed you the scriptures after and connected it for you.
I explained how Greek Female nouns are used, and how to correctly use it to mean falling away from the truth.

And the best you come up with is it's wrong.............. No proof............. Just wrong along with all the translations. WRONG.

What that says is 'even him' is who is after the working of Satan...In other words, the 'him' in that is who gets deceived by Satan.

And the HIM is the one coming to deceive, not the one that got deceived............ amazing. Can't you read?

And you want to dodge all this and talk about Jesus and the pretty clouds................. You can't even stay focused. How hard is it to stay focused?

And you can't answer who you think is "FALLING AWAY" how hard is that? who knows, might be Big Bird for all we know.

Your not worth wasting any more time on. Go be with Jesus and the pretty clouds.

 

[The Town Crier]

Funny how you switch topics when Your answer for the other things I brought up is I use fancy words and the translations are wrong.

what do I have to work with here?

If you can't even Accept what is in your own bible, Connecting the wrong Greek words and mixing parent child up, then what good will speaking about Jesus coming in the clouds do for you?

Are you saying you have more IQ when it comes to defending against the Church being caught up before Tribulation?

You actually want to try to defend that position against me? When the best you come up with is everyone is wrong?

I compared Apostasia for you in acts on how it's used.
I explained what type of noun it was and told you the VERB you would need to make the scripture say what you claim.
I Explained how that Wicked Group, is actually a person, and even most all the translations agree, I even showed you the scriptures after and connected it for you.
I explained how Greek Female nouns are used, and how to correctly use it to mean falling away from the truth.

And the best you come up with is it's wrong.............. No proof............. Just wrong along with all the translations. WRONG.



And the HIM is the one coming to deceive, not the one that got deceived............ amazing. Can't you read?

And you want to dodge all this and talk about Jesus and the pretty clouds................. You can't even stay focused. How hard is it to stay focused?

And you can't answer who you think is "FALLING AWAY" how hard is that? who knows, might be Big Bird for all we know.

Your not worth wasting any more time on. Go be with Jesus and the pretty clouds.

Michael- I never said 'everyone is wrong'.... You act like every scholar on Planet earth teaches what you believe...But the fact is very few do. Maybe there are many out there right now that do, but that isn't a surprise given the times we are in. I caught you in a contradiction and now you are trying to avoid it at all cost. The fact is smoke and mirrors and Greek lexicons are not going to get you through this. You got caught in a contradiction and now you don't know how to get out of it... so you get mad and throw in the towel instead? I asked you two very simple questions that you refuse to answer...Does Jesus come back on the clouds twice or just once? and do you believe that the apostasy is the removal of the church? Why can't you just say or no?

You don't want to answer the clouds question because you know it will show you have a contradiction in what you believe. See it is one thing to have a belief about something- but when you cannot reconcile it with scripture then you have a problem.

Let's skip the cloud question though and get to the other one...Do you believe that the 'apostasy' is the removal of the church? Just a simple yes or no? See I think you do believe that the apostasy is the removal of the church. But you cant say it because you know it contradicts both Jesus and Paul. So answer the question- Do you think that the 'apostasy' or 'falling away' is the removal of the church?

TC