An honest question to cessationists

Mykuhl said:
I just want to know if cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal revelation about scripture to believers today? Do you guys believe that the Spirit gives you understanding and explains the scriptures to you so that you understand them correctly?

I am asking in here because I can't seem to find the answer online. I am not looking to turn this into a debate about the topic.

Thanks.
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I see no cessationist has replied to your question so far! :)

I don't know if the reply to this question should vary between continuationist and cessationist (these words are so hard to type!!). I follow preachings of people like RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll. I think they all fully believe Holy Spirit brings understanding of scriptures to a person. At the same time, there is nothing more extra that is going to be revealed by Holy Spirit apart from what is there in black and white.

As a continuationist, I do believe many believers are gifted with teaching. It does not mean they bring extra revelation or interpretation. They come in with tremendous gift of application of scripture.
 
Mykuhl said:
I just want to know if cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal revelation about scripture to believers today? Do you guys believe that the Spirit gives you understanding and explains the scriptures to you so that you understand them correctly?

I am asking in here because I can't seem to find the answer online. I am not looking to turn this into a debate about the topic.

Thanks.
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I think that the word "Cessationist" needs to be explained so that your understanding would be better. Just so we are on the same page, I am a Cessationist.

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” or another word would be the "sign gifts" of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”.

1 Corinthians 14:22 is one of several verses that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church in the manner we see it being done today.

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would actually cease in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

Speaking only to "tongues" which was a SIGN gift my I give you six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist. The need to authenticate there verbal message of the gospel ended when that gospel was completed in the Bible and they all died.

2) The sign gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned at all, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future but refers to the ability TO TEACH..

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. That is seen 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:1-3.

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles in Luke 9:1-2.

And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead in Acts 20:9-12, did not heal Epaphroditus as seen in Philippians 2:25-27, Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20, Timothy 1 Timothy 5:23, or even himself in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9. NOW the question must be asked and answered WHY NOT????

Personally I think that the reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are .......
1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship.
2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for those who accept cessationism. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified and the lost would hear the gospel and come to Christ in order to be saved.

That my dear friend is WHY Jesus died!
 
Ravindran said:
I see no cessationist has replied to your question so far! :)

I don't know if the reply to this question should vary between continuationist and cessationist (these words are so hard to type!!). I follow preachings of people like RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll. I think they all fully believe Holy Spirit brings understanding of scriptures to a person. At the same time, there is nothing more extra that is going to be revealed by Holy Spirit apart from what is there in black and white.

As a continuationist, I do believe many believers are gifted with teaching. It does not mean they bring extra revelation or interpretation. They come in with tremendous gift of application of scripture.
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Agreed my brother. The word in the Greek....."to Prophecy" literally means to GIVE FORTH. It means teaching is more important than signs or wonders.

You see, signs and wonders......believe it or not can be and are faked in order for a person to look more spiritual than others.

Read carefully and with an open heart the commission that Jesus gave to His disciples just before He assended. Read and understand WHAT He said and not what others will say that He said.

Mark 16:14-20. Now it is acceptaed that these verses are actually not in the originals but were added later by someone other than Mark. However here they are for those who want to believe they are still in effect.

Marl 16:14-20...........
"Afterward he appeared to the ELEVEN themselves as THEY were reclining at table, and he rebuked THEM for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 “Go into all the world and uproclaim the gospel to the whole creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.17 these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; THEY will speak in new tongues;18 THEY will pick up serpents with their hands; and if THEY drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt THEM; THEY will lay THEIR hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Now who are these THEY. To confirm who THEY were lets read Hebrews 2:1-4.............
"Therefore WE must give the more earnest heed to the things WE have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall WE escape if WE neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?"

According to the Word of God right in front of you, the ones called THEY in Mark were the disciples and according to Hebrews THEY were the ones given the sign gifts in order to authenticate the gospel message of why Jesus came and died for humanity.

Now all of that means those who accept the sign gifts as being valid today MUST believe that we still have apostles today.
THEY would be considered "SENT ONES' and according to the Scriptures that is exactly what Jesus did in His commission to THEM.

So........Is it possible then to be an Apostle today is really the question that binds all of this together not whether we are cessationists or continent's.

The Word of God gives us the qualifications of the apostles in Acts 1:21-22 .......
1. "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22. Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Clearly we can see that in order to be an apostle THEY must have been with Jesus during His earthly ministry in v.21;
and been baptized by John the Baptist in v.22,
and been eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ in v.22.

What about Paul will be the next question?????

Paul was given an exemption on the first requirements but greatly emphasized his having been an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ – “And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time” (1Corinthians 15:8)
"And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

But Paul admitted to being the least of the apostles in qualifications in 1Corinthians 15:9.....
"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God".

So, what does this say about those who claim to be apostles without any of the qualifications or signs of an apostle?
We need to avoid calling people apostles in any particular sense. To do so causes confusion. It does not fit our day and age and it does not conform to the Holy Scriptures.
 
Euphemia said:
That, of course, is religious thinking. Of course we still live in an age where God produces apostles of His making for His Church.
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You could also call it a scholarly way of looking at, but that's just a thought.

The scripturally noted gifts that many cite as apostolic proof or as sensational are still seen in areas where the church is not well established (there is one spiritual gift that is given specifically for the benefit of non-believers).

Apostle basically means "one who is sent out", and historically apostles tend to be multi-gifted.
It pretty much goes with along with the idea that they are sent out to start something so they need to be capable of functioning in a number of spitirual capacities.
 
Apostles were directly chosen by God, they were not just followers, but witnesses of the crucifixion as acts 1:21-26 shows the qualifications for replacing judas,

I personally believe that tongues still have a very slight use. However, the use of tongues in a church setting is one that I do not believe in, and more often than not, the tongues of today are not the same as the tongues as shown in acts. Prophecy, in the term of teaching, is accurate, but I have yet to see any post apostolic "prophet" that hasn't had major holes or generalizations. So I do not believe the power of visions of the future are in use today.
 
Ravindran said:
I see no cessationist has replied to your question so far! :)

I don't know if the reply to this question should vary between continuationist and cessationist (these words are so hard to type!!). I follow preachings of people like RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll. I think they all fully believe Holy Spirit brings understanding of scriptures to a person. At the same time, there is nothing more extra that is going to be revealed by Holy Spirit apart from what is there in black and white.

As a continuationist, I do believe many believers are gifted with teaching. It does not mean they bring extra revelation or interpretation. They come in with tremendous gift of application of scripture.
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What would you consider extra revelation or interpretation?
 
Euphemia said:
When did the "apostolic age" end?
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John was the last of the apostles to die, ending the apostolic era. Irenaeus says repeatedly that he lived until the times of Trajan, whose reign began in A.D. 98. Since Irenaeus, who wrote around A.D. 185, was old enough to know people who knew John, his testimony carries a lot of weight.
 
Klub said:
Apostles were directly chosen by God, they were not just followers, but witnesses of the crucifixion as acts 1:21-26 shows the qualifications for replacing judas,

I personally believe that tongues still have a very slight use. However, the use of tongues in a church setting is one that I do not believe in, and more often than not, the tongues of today are not the same as the tongues as shown in acts. Prophecy, in the term of teaching, is accurate, but I have yet to see any post apostolic "prophet" that hasn't had major holes or generalizations. So I do not believe the power of visions of the future are in use today.
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I pretty much agree with. I would go on to say that "tongues" according to the Scriptures would come to an end and IMO has done just that.
 
Major said:
And right there is the concern. Who would decide what is acceptable as an extra revelation from God????

The Pope? Dr. Graham? Charles Stanley? Barak Obama????
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Actually, I just wanted to know what he considered extra revelation and interpretation. As I'm sure people can define it differently.
 
eric m williams said:
You could also call it a scholarly way of looking at, but that's just a thought.

The scripturally noted gifts that many cite as apostolic proof or as sensational are still seen in areas where the church is not well established (there is one spiritual gift that is given specifically for the benefit of non-believers).

Apostle basically means "one who is sent out", and historically apostles tend to be multi-gifted.
It pretty much goes with along with the idea that they are sent out to start something so they need to be capable of functioning in a number of spitirual capacities.
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I can not agree with you my brother. What we are then saying disputes the Scriptures.

1 Corth. 13:8-10........
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away".

That is very, very clear. I know some reject it and some explain it away however the grammatical Greek it is written in is "neuter" which means that the "perfect" mentioned is a THING and not a Person. The only two things that have come is Jesus Christ and the Bible. Since the grammatical Greek cannot be changed it then must be by elimination the only thing left which is the Bible.

Paul then is saying.......when the Bible is completed (Come) the temporary things such as tongues and prophecy will not be need and will end because we will then have the perfect thing.

Was the gifted office of APOSTLE to remain in the church always as we see in the RCC (Pope) and the Mormons and also Charismatic Pentecostal?? Or, to put it another way, were there to be apostles in the church in every generation throughout church history? Did God continue to give the gift of PROPHECY to Christians in all generations throughout the ongoing centuries of church history? No, we understand correctly that our faith is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 2:20), and that these gifts have passed away because the purpose for which they were given has been fulfilled. There are no apostles or prophets on earth today, for the COMPLETE (teleion) MESSAGE of God, His completely revealed truth, His Word, the Bible, is now in the hands of believers everywhere.
 
Major said:
I can not agree with you my brother. What we are then saying disputes the Scriptures.

1 Corth. 13:8-10........
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away".

That is very, very clear. I know some reject it and some explain it away however the grammatical Greek it is written in is "neuter" which means that the "perfect" mentioned is a THING and not a Person. The only two things that have come is Jesus Christ and the Bible. Since the grammatical Greek cannot be changed it then must be by elimination the only thing left which is the Bible.

Paul then is saying.......when the Bible is completed (Come) the temporary things such as tongues and prophecy will not be need and will end because we will then have the perfect thing.

Was the gifted office of APOSTLE to remain in the church always as we see in the RCC (Pope) and the Mormons and also Charismatic Pentecostal?? Or, to put it another way, were there to be apostles in the church in every generation throughout church history? Did God continue to give the gift of PROPHECY to Christians in all generations throughout the ongoing centuries of church history? No, we understand correctly that our faith is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 2:20), and that these gifts have passed away because the purpose for which they were given has been fulfilled. There are no apostles or prophets on earth today, for the COMPLETE (teleion) MESSAGE of God, His completely revealed truth, His Word, the Bible, is now in the hands of believers everywhere.
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I didn't mean this thread to turn into a debate but since it HAS I will add my input.

Major,

Lets look at the entire context of 1 Corinthians chapter 13. What is the chapter's focus from beginning to end? The focus is on love. If we look closely we will see that Paul is teaching that all of the other things(gifts) mentioned are subservient to love and if one has all of these but does not have love then they are of no value. What then is this "perfect" thing that will come? It is perfect love! When is perfect love going to come? Have we seen it manifested in anyone on the earth besides Jesus? No, we haven't, and we know full well that this letter was written after Jesus died and rose to heaven. So then when is this perfect love going to come...when will it manifest? Let's take a look at verse 12: "for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now we know in part, but then I shall know just as I am known." When will we see face to face? When shall we know fully just as I we are known? It is in our eternal state...when we are glorified! That is when perfect love will come and "that which is in part will be done away." Because it will no longer be needed! This I what these verses mean.
 
Major said:
John was the last of the apostles to die, ending the apostolic era. Irenaeus says repeatedly that he lived until the times of Trajan, whose reign began in A.D. 98. Since Irenaeus, who wrote around A.D. 185, was old enough to know people who knew John, his testimony carries a lot of weight.
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John may have been the last of the apostles who walked with Jesus in the flesh to die, but Jesus has set in motion a continuation by the power and presence of Holy Spirit. There is no end in sight for the apostolic gift until the Church age is ended.
 
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