How do you then explain those verses which tell us straight out that tongues, and prophesying will cease.
It seems very clear to me, but that is just me.
An honest question to cessationists
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How do you then explain those verses which tell us straight out that tongues, and prophesying will cease.
It seems very clear to me, but that is just me.
I hear you and understand but what do you do with the Scriptures which give clear direction as to the qualifications of an Apostle???
Are they to be just ignored because we want to have the continuation of the sign gifts?
It's simple. They will all cease when the Church is complete---when Jesus comes. Until that glorious Day comes, we require those spiritual tools to get the job done that we are ALL called to do.
We are not to ignore the gifts if we want to live fruitful, victorious lives for Christ.
What, to you, are the clear biblical qualifications of an apostle?
I guess you missed what I wrote about that in post #37? I addressed this very topic.
I respect your thinking. It tells me that you have done a lot of study and praying and actually you may be correct. What do I know???? I am just an ole country boy.
However, I think that if that was the case Paul would have told us just that. Actually the original Greek word used by Paul here is "pauo" and it was used by Paul to indicate one thing and that was tongues would soon be "cut off" as their necessity ceased.
It is important I think to know that from this verse in 1 Corinthians tongues are never mentioned again in the New Test. account after this warning. Now compared to that Paul says love will never cease no matter what. Love will never be outmoded, unnecessary or eliminated.
The ones which are found in the Scriptures. If it was a matter of opinion I would have nothing whatsoever to say about this because we are all able to express an opinion. However when it comes to the Scriptures and the directions they give us, I think that they should be considered and followed.
"According to the New Testament there are basically two qualifications that someone had to fulfill to be counted as an apostle. Now, I admit that nowhere in the pages of the New Testament do we find something like "These are the qualifications of an apostle, and they are..." On the other hand, neither do we find the word "trinity" in the Bible, but we do believe it, because the concept is unmistakably taught in the pages of the Bible. The same thing applies to the Rapture teaching.
The first qualification of an apostle is that he had to have seen the resurrected Jesus with his own eyes. He had to have been an "eyewitness." This is indicated to us by Acts 1:21-22, "Therefore, one of the men who have associated with us all the time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day he was taken up from us, must become a witness with us to his resurrection."
Again, after "he had suffered, he had shown himself alive to them by many convincing proofs, appearing to them through a period of forty days and telling them about the kingdom of God." (Ac. 1:3 )
In Paul's writings, he is adamant that he indeed did meet this qualification, even though it was in a very unusual way and that is found in Ac. 9:5-6; 26:15-18. Paul, in defense of his apostleship wrote, "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Cor. 9:1).
He also said "then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7-9 ).
The second qualification of an apostle is that he received specific appointment by Christ Himself. The term "apostle" is not common in the gospels, yet the disciples are called "apostles" in a context where Jesus commissioned them by "sending" them:.......
"JESUS summoned His twelve disciples ... Now the names of the twelve apostles ... These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them..." (Mt. 10:1-7).
Jesus reminds them that they will be His witnesses in Ac. 1:8. When the need arose to replace Judas Iscariot, the eleven apostles went straight to the Lord to reveal His choice of replacement: "And they prayed and said, You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place. And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles" (Ac. 1:24-26).
Even Paul insists that his appointment as apostle was by Jesus Himself on the Damascus road: "But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;" (Ac. 26:16).
Then we see that Paul also starts most of his epistles with the fact that he is an apostle by the will of God."
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Not really. I respond in #46 to your thought. The bottom line is that love is NOT perfect. IT is when applied to God loving us but we will not know that feeling while living in these bodies.
Again, the Greek is written in a way that means the "perfect one" is complete/mature and in my opinion I do not think that would be love. But again...........it may very well be, I just do not think so.
Yes mam, I know what you are saying. I have seen it on many occasions. My thought however is that according to the Scriptures it should not be there but it obviously is. That leaves us with a huge question.
The Bible says it should not be there but it is. WHY is that the case???
Thank you for that respect, I appreciate it.
I looked up the Greek word pauo and I did not see anywhere that it implies that something will be soon cut off or soon cease. It simply defines the word as cease, refrain, desist, and is from the root verb meaning pause. This then does not change the meaning. Also, you mentioned if Paul meant what I suppose it means then he would simply say as much...well, there are many instances in scripture that a writer means something but it is not clearly stated. That is why we need the Holy Spirit to help us understand...to open up the scriptures for us.
That is not a prerequisite to the Holy Spirit's gifting. There was a qualification required for Judas' replacement only.
Apostles and pastors etc., truly called by God, are all chosen and appointed by Jesus Christ today, and anointed by Holy Spirit.
This continues today.
Tongues will never pass away until the whole Church becomes "mature".
Notice, "tongues", and "knowledge" will all pass away together. Do we still have knowledge today?
1Co 13:8.. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9.. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10.. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
What is it that is "perfect"? When the "perfect" comes then "tongues" and "knowledge" will pass away.
Does the Bible tell us what this perfect is? Absolutely, in the next verse......
1Co 13:11.. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
This is a real no brainier, and even a child could figure this out. When we are a "child" we will need these things, but, when we become a "mature adult" all these things will pass away!!!!
Are there still baby Christians today?
The word, "perfect" means "mature, to come to full age"
Notice, "tongues", and "knowledge" will all pass away together. Do we still have knowledge today?
1Co 13:8.. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9.. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10.. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
What is it that is "perfect"? When the "perfect" comes then "tongues" and "knowledge" will pass away.
Does the Bible tell us what this perfect is? Absolutely, in the next verse......
1Co 13:11.. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
This is a real no brainier, and even a child could figure this out. When we are a "child" we will need these things, but, when we become a "mature adult" all these things will pass away!!!!
Are there still baby Christians today?
The word, "perfect" means "mature, to come to full age"
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Paul wrote this epistle "years" after the Church had began. If the ministry of the "apostle" had ended he would had never have mentioned the ministry gift of the apostle here. In fact the ministry of the "apostle" will NEVER end until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a PERFECT MAN. The word "Perfect" meaning "mature, full grown" None of the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with tongues will ever pass away until the Church has become mature!!!!
Eph 4:8.. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9.. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10.. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11.. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12.. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13.. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14.. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:8.. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9.. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10.. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11.. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12.. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13.. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14.. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Praying or singing in the spirit is tongues. This is our spiritual language and the only one that satan can not understand. This has not nor will it stop.
When one prays as they hear the spirit say are praying led by the spirit but still in a natural language.
From what I have learned of late........
Perfect love when directed with us is not perfect like perfection but PERFECTED LOVE or another words love that has been built up through His word.
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Old English apostol, via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek apostolos ‘messenger,’ from apostellein ‘send forth.’
I don't believe that the entire body will ever attain unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ here on this earth before the Lord returns. So, I believe gifts of the Spirit Will continue at least until the second coming.
There are four different"types" of Apostles written about in scripture.
(1)Jesus Christ was an Apostle. Jesus was a one of a kind Apostle as God gave him the Spirit without"measure".
Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling,consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
Apostle meaning "one who is sent, a messenger". Jesus was sent, and a messenger of God to proclaim the Gospel to men. Jesus operated in all five "ministry" gifts as a Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and teacher.
(2) The second type apostle are the"Apostles of the Lamb". The twelve Apostles are in a class of their own. No one else can ever be a Apostle of the Lamb.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
These twelve Apostles were sent for to be eyewitnesses of Jesus life, earthly ministry, and resurrection. Their main purpose was to be ministers of the Gospel. They were the first to preach, and teach the Word of God.
The Apostle Paul would not qualify to be one of these Apostles as he did not follow Jesus from the start to the end of his earthly ministry. There have been around twenty people in the Bible that have been called "Apostles", or"sent ones", but only the original twelve are considered an Apostles of the Lamb. There are only twelve foundations that support the heavenly city, not 13 or 14....ect
(3) The third type of Apostle would be the Apostle Paul, who helped lay the "doctrinal" foundation of the New Testament. Paul wrote about half of the New Testament, and the revelations he taught did not come from man.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Whichin other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
The Apostle Paul preached the"revelation"of the Gospel to the early Church saints.We do not need to lay any other foundation which is already laid for us, we are only to build upon that foundation!!
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The Apostle Paul tell us this.....
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
There are no NEW revelations being given to the Church as a "foundation". Paul warned the Church that we are to take heed to how we build upon that which has already been laid.(4) The fourth type of Apostle is the what we have today in the Church. They are sent ones, and their apostleship is in a measure unlike other foundational apostles like the original twelve, and the apostle Paul who laid the very foundation of the Gospel. Epaphroditus was called a "messenger" by Paul. The word, "messenger" means "Apostle". Epaphroditus was not an Apostle in the same sense as Paul or the other twelve apostles were. He was "sent"out as a delegate, or representative, or as the commissioned representative of a congregation.
Today's Apostles are commissioned by the Holy Spirit to bring a specific message or ministry along a certain scriptural lines to the Body of Christ. They simply build upon the foundation that has already been laid.
One of the most notable signs of a Apostle is their anointing to teach, and preach the Word of God, and to start or plant new Churches.
(1)Jesus Christ was an Apostle. Jesus was a one of a kind Apostle as God gave him the Spirit without"measure".
Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling,consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
Apostle meaning "one who is sent, a messenger". Jesus was sent, and a messenger of God to proclaim the Gospel to men. Jesus operated in all five "ministry" gifts as a Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and teacher.
(2) The second type apostle are the"Apostles of the Lamb". The twelve Apostles are in a class of their own. No one else can ever be a Apostle of the Lamb.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
These twelve Apostles were sent for to be eyewitnesses of Jesus life, earthly ministry, and resurrection. Their main purpose was to be ministers of the Gospel. They were the first to preach, and teach the Word of God.
The Apostle Paul would not qualify to be one of these Apostles as he did not follow Jesus from the start to the end of his earthly ministry. There have been around twenty people in the Bible that have been called "Apostles", or"sent ones", but only the original twelve are considered an Apostles of the Lamb. There are only twelve foundations that support the heavenly city, not 13 or 14....ect
(3) The third type of Apostle would be the Apostle Paul, who helped lay the "doctrinal" foundation of the New Testament. Paul wrote about half of the New Testament, and the revelations he taught did not come from man.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Whichin other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
The Apostle Paul preached the"revelation"of the Gospel to the early Church saints.We do not need to lay any other foundation which is already laid for us, we are only to build upon that foundation!!
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The Apostle Paul tell us this.....
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
There are no NEW revelations being given to the Church as a "foundation". Paul warned the Church that we are to take heed to how we build upon that which has already been laid.(4) The fourth type of Apostle is the what we have today in the Church. They are sent ones, and their apostleship is in a measure unlike other foundational apostles like the original twelve, and the apostle Paul who laid the very foundation of the Gospel. Epaphroditus was called a "messenger" by Paul. The word, "messenger" means "Apostle". Epaphroditus was not an Apostle in the same sense as Paul or the other twelve apostles were. He was "sent"out as a delegate, or representative, or as the commissioned representative of a congregation.
Today's Apostles are commissioned by the Holy Spirit to bring a specific message or ministry along a certain scriptural lines to the Body of Christ. They simply build upon the foundation that has already been laid.
One of the most notable signs of a Apostle is their anointing to teach, and preach the Word of God, and to start or plant new Churches.
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I agree with this. It's the tongues where people just babble around on the ground that I do not believe to be true. Just like I believe the gift of prophecy to be alive, just not the idea that we are receiving visions of the future from God. If that were the case, we would still be writing the bible.
So in sum, I am not a cessationist, but I do not agree with many practices of tongues or "prophecy".